Scratch LT off the office the offseason need list

[Circleville Guy]

If I’m GM, I’d draft a T, G and center in the first 5 picks. I’d also try to sign a decent Guard or RT in free agency. Then the damn coach has to actually play who deserves to play. Handing people jobs, regardless of performance and drafting guys that have already had major surgeries has to stop now.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-01-2018, 04:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: I agree.  We ideally need a C and 2 T's.  I give Bolling great respect for the job he's done at LT, but he's a stopgap for a few games, not a 16 game starter.  He does ease the need for quality depth, because I don't think anyone will say Fisher and Og are even solid backups, but we  need major upgrades at those 3 spots.

We can clearly see the need to jettison the bad players, but will the management see it that way?  Fisher and Og will be heading into the final year of their contracts (unless they pick up the 5th year option on Og). meaning they are cheap for one more year.

This is a prime example of why the team needs an autonomous GM, with the power to manage personnel in an intelligent manner.

[redwood]

(01-01-2018, 11:20 AM)Steve Wrote: I just don't think Ced is going to cut it at LT.....
we've tried it 2 years in a row.....
he just gets beat too much....
imo, he is nothing more than a back up....
but it seems Fisher is even worse.....
so they both need to go...
next year, 2018 is year 4 for both of them....so they can't be here in 2019....

We've had an odd turn.   Our OT's  were not good, then injured. Bolling.. turns out to be a better OT. Turns out Westerman and Redmond.. seldom used...are okay at G.  Alexander the liner coach is a goner and many expect Marvin is gone.

I EXPECT we draft O-Line, have some new coaching. i EXPECT we want to see if Ced,Fisher can do well at OTHER positions.
The unexpected late revival costs us draft position BUT....also adds some possibilities we'd missed.

[Whatever]

(01-01-2018, 04:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We can clearly see the need to jettison the bad players, but will the management see it that way?  Fisher and Og will be heading into the final year of their contracts (unless they pick up the 5th year option on Og). meaning they are cheap for one more year.

This is a prime example of why the team needs an autonomous GM, with the power to manage personnel in an intelligent manner.

Cutting Fisher will save a little over $1 mil in cap room, but we can't cut him even if we want to until he can pass a physical.  If Fisher is smart, he should know that between his health issues and abysmal play, his days are numbered.  The smart move for him is to stretch it out as long as he can and go on the NFI for 2018, because Brown will likely pay him his salary even though he doesn't have to, then retire.

Og only saves $600k or so, so he will likely be brought back to TC to try and win a job.  

[SunsetBengal]

(01-01-2018, 08:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Cutting Fisher will save a little over $1 mil in cap room, but we can't cut him even if we want to until he can pass a physical.  If Fisher is smart, he should know that between his health issues and abysmal play, his days are numbered.  The smart move for him is to stretch it out as long as he can and go on the NFI for 2018, because Brown will likely pay him his salary even though he doesn't have to, then retire.

Og only saves $600k or so, so he will likely be brought back to TC to try and win a job.  

I'm pretty sure that there is a clause for a medical release/injury settlement.  So, Ogbuehi being released would only save 600K?  Great, that would cover about half the cost of bringing in an aging player for the Vet minimum.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-01-2018, 11:20 AM)Steve Wrote: I just don't think Ced is going to cut it at LT.....
we've tried it 2 years in a row.....
he just gets beat too much....
imo, he is nothing more than a back up....
but it seems Fisher is even worse.....
so they both need to go...
next year, 2018 is year 4 for both of them....so they can't be here in 2019....

we tried it for one year.. last year he played RT.. was behind Whit later in the year at LT.. not saying we don;t replace him just pointing out that.. I thought Fisher really regressed, he has had more playing time over Ced in preseason and regular season since we drafted them and has improved less than Ced i believe

[Essex Johnson]

(01-01-2018, 11:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: #3:  Says who?  Marv?  This was their SECOND year with the team.  What I can't stand is what we saw from Hopkins and Bodine was beyond pathetic, and yet there was no competition for them.  Two games don't make a career, but when you start as poorly as the Bengals, it can surely ruin a season....look no further than Zampese's firing.  

For whatever reason, they stuck with Bodine and went with Hopkins and never deviated until injuries forced their hand.

And PLEASE, no one give me the fresh argument.  If you ever played football, you know the most painful game is the second one of the season because you just can't simulate the soreness you get from a full game.  You feel like absolute dogshit before the second game (part of my NFL conspiracy:  how the Bengals got the first Thursday Night Game).  And these guys are trench guys...the leg soreness would be tremendous.  

Redmond was practice squad most of last year.. his technique was raw.. he improved so i guess he have to actually credit the coaches also if i player improves...  did you miss the preseason.. Hopkins out played the other guards.. he started out ok,, but then got hurt and was in and out of lineup... 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Boling is only under contract for 2 more years, then he'll run the F away from this Cincinnati Groundhog Day nightmare, because he'll still be playing between the awful Ogbuehi and Bodine, and still have Marvin and Piano Man as his coaches.

[Steve]

i see a 4 way toss up...
think it'll be one of these 4 guys...

#1 OG Nelson
#2 S    Derwin James
#3 OT McGlinchey
#4 one of the DT's.....there's 3 of them grouped in this 10-15 area....

I doubt we'd pick the LB out of Georgia, Roqun Smith...at #12....

i'd pick Nelson if it was my choice.....
but at #12 he { maybe even James} may be off the board already...
so it would probably be the OT.....i'd think...if it is i'd be ok w/ it....

[Steve]

(01-01-2018, 09:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Boling is only under contract for 2 more years, then he'll run the F away from this Cincinnati Groundhog Day nightmare, because he'll still be playing between the awful Ogbuehi and Bodine, and still have Marvin and Piano Man as his coaches.

I don't see Ced starting next yr.....we've already tried that.....
he should be nothing more than a back up....& when his contract runs out release him

I don't think Bodine will be back....
we need a new guy....

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-01-2018, 09:49 PM)Steve Wrote: I don't see Ced starting next yr.....we've already tried that.....
he should be nothing more than a back up....& when his contract runs out release him

I don't think Bodine will be back....
we need a new guy....

This is a team that let Whitworth walk and rolled with Ogbuehi at LT. Who looked at Vigil and Minter as a solution to their LB problems. Who threw  $52.5m at Dre Kirkpatrick in the offseason. Who employed Paul Alexander for like 26 years. A team that looked at Marvin's 15 years of 0 playoff wins, horrible prime-time and Steelers showings, and an overall record of just 2 wins over .500, and is apparently saying "thank you Sir, may I have another 15 years?"

You're going to get Marvin, you're going to get Paul Alexander, you're going to get Ogbuehi, and you're going to get Bodine.

"Real fans" would stay the course.

[*Synric*]

(01-01-2018, 10:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This is a team that let Whitworth walk and rolled with Ogbuehi at LT. Who looked at Vigil and Minter as a solution to their LB problems. Who threw  $52.5m at Dre Kirkpatrick in the offseason. Who employed Paul Alexander for like 26 years. A team that looked at Marvin's 15 years of 0 playoff wins, horrible prime-time and Steelers showings, and an overall record of just 2 wins over .500, and is apparently saying "thank you Sir, may I have another 15 years?"

You're going to get Marvin, you're going to get Paul Alexander, you're going to get Ogbuehi, and you're going to get Bodine.

"Real fans" would stay the course.

They didn't LET Whitworth walk they offered him a nice 1 year contract Rams offered him a 3 year contract.

Why didn't they offer him more years? Well this coming offseason they have to resign Dennard and extend Geno and Dunlap...

The whole they have alot of cap space is an illusion.

Edit: Oops forgot a Tyler Kroft extention too. You don't even want to know everyone that's a free agent in 2020 that needs extended before the 2019 season...

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-01-2018, 10:24 PM)Synric Wrote: They didn't LET Whitworth walk they offered him a nice 1 year contract Rams offered him a 3 year contract.

Why didn't they offer him more years? Well this coming offseason they have to resign Dennard and extend Geno and Dunlap...

The whole they have alot of cap space is an illusion.

Edit: Oops forgot a Tyler Kroft extention too. You don't even want to know everyone that's a free agent in 2020 that needs extended before the 2019 season...

If you don't use your franchise tag, you let them walk.

Your post reads like a Hobspin article. Assuming they extend Dennard (meh), Adam Jones had a $8m cap hit in 2017. That basically just swaps the two out as they won't extend Dennard, keep Kirkpatrick (they have to for now, too much dead money), AND keep Jones.

Either Atkins or Dunlap are going to be gone, likely both of them. Atkins is currently being paid as the 15th interior defender in the NFL. He's going to get an absurd payday somewhere if they don't franchise tag him. Atkins is making $10.6m/yr, and there's 3 DTs making $17m/yr+. I don't see Mike Brown giving Atkins $18m/yr.

Carlos Dunlap has been openly voicing his feelings on the mediocrity that is the Bengals. I can't see him wanting to re-up with the Bengals when they're seriously looking at bringing back Marvin. The franchise tag will be being used on Atkins, so he'll walk and get a big payday elsewhere. Only one of them will stay, and it'll likely only be due to franchise tag.

Not to mention your whole "they didn't sign Whitworth because they have to extend Atkins and Dunlap" is premised around the idea that you can't give a guy a 3 year deal, because 2 years later, people may need extensions? That's some Hobspin BS right there, man.

Tyler Kroft has a career 66 catches/625 yards (9.9 AVG)/8 TD in THREE YEARS. Not to mention Eifert had a $5m cap hit in 2017 that's coming off the books and there's no way on earth Kroft is worth more than $5m/yr. So you're clearing up space there, not losing it. Nice try.


- - - - - -  -

Of course this all is premised around your fantasy that the Bengals couldn't franchise tag Whitworth, or sign him for 3 years and cut him after 2 with only $1.66m in dead cap... JUST like the Rams could do on his current contract.

Hobspin fail. Don't be an enabler/apologist for this shitty-run franchise.

The Bengals go into an offseason with a ton of cap space, lose all their best FA, sign LaFell, A Smith, and Minter, and then cry poor.
The Steelers go into an offseason with half of the cap space, franchise tag Bell, extend Brown, re-sign their LT, extend Tuitt, and sign Haden.

F the Steelers, but also F the Bengals FO.

[*Synric*]

(01-01-2018, 11:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If you don't use your franchise tag, you let them walk.

Your post reads like a Hobspin article. Assuming they extend Dennard (meh), Adam Jones had a $8m cap hit in 2017. That basically just swaps the two out as they won't extend Dennard, keep Kirkpatrick (they have to for now, too much dead money), AND keep Jones.

Either Atkins or Dunlap are going to be gone, likely both of them. Atkins is currently being paid as the 15th interior defender in the NFL. He's going to get an absurd payday somewhere if they don't franchise tag him. Atkins is making $10.6m/yr, and there's 3 DTs making $17m/yr+. I don't see Mike Brown giving Atkins $18m/yr.

Carlos Dunlap has been openly voicing his feelings on the mediocrity that is the Bengals. I can't see him wanting to re-up with the Bengals when they're seriously looking at bringing back Marvin. The franchise tag will be being used on Atkins, so he'll walk and get a big payday elsewhere. Only one of them will stay, and it'll likely only be due to franchise tag.

Not to mention your whole "they didn't sign Whitworth because they have to extend Atkins and Dunlap" is premised around the idea that you can't give a guy a 3 year deal, because 2 years later, people may need extensions? That's some Hobspin BS right there, man.

Tyler Kroft has a career 66 catches/625 yards (9.9 AVG)/8 TD in THREE YEARS. Not to mention Eifert had a $5m cap hit in 2017 that's coming off the books and there's no way on earth Kroft is worth more than $5m/yr. So you're clearing up space there, not losing it. Nice try.


- - - - - -  -

Of course this all is premised around your fantasy that the Bengals couldn't franchise tag Whitworth, or sign him for 3 years and cut him after 2 with only $1.66m in dead cap... JUST like the Rams could do on his current contract.

Hobspin fail. Don't be an enabler/apologist for this shitty-run franchise.

Tackle franchise tag is over 14 mil I believe the Bengals only have 12 mil cap space for the 2017. They offered Whit all the under thr cap money they had for 2017 he turned it down for a 3 year deal which would would NOT have given the Bengals the option of resigning Geno and Dunlap.

Eifert made 5mil a year but a top 12 pick will make the same actually they will make more in 2018. Rookies will be under the cap too.

So they don't extend kroft? He's making what less than a mil now? If extended he makes what 4mil a year?

Your whole premise is based on the Bengals NOT resigning anyone and not giving them raises. 


Sorry but you are thinking in terms of 1 over all season it doesn't work like that.

Edit: As for defending the FO I'm not. They should have EXTENDED Whitworth 1 year before the 2016 season. They didn't because they had two young tacklws they drafted the year before who had yet to take a snap. It's always easier to looks back at mistakes than guess what which choice will be a mistake going foward.

[Utts]

I think people are reading way too much into these last 2 games. This is the Dead Cat Bounce, and should not be mistaken for reality.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-01-2018, 11:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Tackle franchise tag is over 14 mil I believe the Bengals only have 12 mil cap space for the 2017. 

Eifert made 5mil a year but a top 12 pick will make the same actually they will make more in 2018. Rookies will be under the cap too.

So they don't extend kroft? He's making what less than a mil now? If extended he makes what 4mil a year?

Your whole premise is based on the Bengals NOT resigning anyone and not giving them raises. 


Sorry but you are thinking in terms of 1 over all season it doesn't work like that.

Yes, and that is because after they let Whitworth walk, they wasted a ton of money overpaying Kirkpatrick (has the 11th highest CB average salary in the NFL, lol), gave LaFell a $5m cap hit in 2017, wasted $4.25m on Minter (who played 18.5% of the defensive snaps), $3.25m on Rey, $3.14m on A Smith, $2.275m on Hewitt (who only played 11.5% of the offensive snaps), and vastly overspent on Burfict when everyone and their mother knew he was only good for like 10 games a year. (5, 10, 11, 10 played the last 4 years).

Using your money on shitty players/bad contracts AFTER you let your All-Pro LT walk isn't a valid defense on why the FO isn't a dumpster fire.

Sorry, but you are thinking in terms of eating up anything you are told by the Bengals, rather than actually wanting to operate like a winning franchise by getting the most out of your resources, and not be the worst owner in NFL history with an NFL worst current 27 year playoff win drought.

With an expected cap of ~$175m in 2018, the Bengals are looking at having $43m in cap space once Adam Jones is cut. But I can see how rookies and Tyler Kroft could eat up that $43m to the point where paying your best OL would have been disastrous. (lol)

[samhain]

(01-01-2018, 11:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, and that is because after they let Whitworth walk, they wasted a ton of money overpaying Kirkpatrick (has the 11th highest CB average salary in the NFL, lol), gave LaFell a $5m cap hit in 2017, wasted $4.25m on Minter (who played 18.5% of the defensive snaps), $3.25m on Rey, $3.14m on A Smith, $2.275m on Hewitt (who only played 11.5% of the offensive snaps), and vastly overspent on Burfict when everyone and their mother knew he was only good for like 10 games a year. (5, 10, 11, 10 played the last 4 years).

Using your money on shitty players/bad contracts AFTER you let your All-Pro LT walk isn't a valid defense on why the FO isn't a dumpster fire.

Sorry, but you are thinking in terms of eating up anything you are told by the Bengals, rather than actually wanting to operate like a winning franchise by getting the most out of your resources, and not be the worst owner in NFL history with an NFL worst current 27 year playoff win drought.

With an expected cap of ~$175m in 2018, the Bengals are looking at having $43m in cap space once Adam Jones is cut. But I can see how rookies and Tyler Kroft could eat up that $43m to the point where paying your best OL would have been disastrous. (lol)

The Dre K deal is the killer to me.  It's like he won a game of musical chairs and wound up being the last guy to pay when Whit left and there was no effort to re-sign Z.  Now they're stuck (in Bengal dead money thinking, anyway) with a soft, football-dumb corner on the payroll for years to come.

[*Synric*]

(01-01-2018, 11:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, and that is because after they let Whitworth walk, they wasted a ton of money overpaying Kirkpatrick (has the 11th highest CB average salary in the NFL, lol), gave LaFell a $5m cap hit in 2017, wasted $4.25m on Minter (who played 18.5% of the defensive snaps), $3.25m on Rey, $3.14m on A Smith, $2.275m on Hewitt (who only played 11.5% of the offensive snaps), and vastly overspent on Burfict when everyone and their mother knew he was only good for like 10 games a year. (5, 10, 11, 10 played the last 4 years).

Using your money on shitty players/bad contracts AFTER you let your All-Pro LT walk isn't a valid defense on why the FO isn't a dumpster fire.

Sorry, but you are thinking in terms of eating up anything you are told by the Bengals, rather than actually wanting to operate like a winning franchise by getting the most out of your resources, and not be the worst owner in NFL history with an NFL worst current 27 year playoff win drought.

With an expected cap of ~$175m in 2018, the Bengals are looking at having $43m in cap space once Adam Jones is cut. But I can see how rookies and Tyler Kroft could eat up that $43m to the point where paying your best OL would have been disastrous. (lol)

I see alot of wasted money on this guy wasted money on that guy but who takes their place? If they didn't sign Minter who plays linebacker? Did Kirkpatrick not earn a contract in 2017? They wasted money on Andre Smith who saw significant amount of snaps?

 In 2018 they will have 35 mil cap space that includes with all the people that are gone in 2018 Eifert, Minter, Dennard etc...and with new rookies.


....and then you said they wasted money on Burfict their star linebacker? No just no man.

Let me ask you a question? Why do you think they didn't extend Whitworth and Zeilter?

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-01-2018, 10:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This is a team that let Whitworth walk and rolled with Ogbuehi at LT. Who looked at Vigil and Minter as a solution to their LB problems. Who threw  $52.5m at Dre Kirkpatrick in the offseason. Who employed Paul Alexander for like 26 years. A team that looked at Marvin's 15 years of 0 playoff wins, horrible prime-time and Steelers showings, and an overall record of just 2 wins over .500, and is apparently saying "thank you Sir, may I have another 15 years?"

You're going to get Marvin, you're going to get Paul Alexander, you're going to get Ogbuehi, and you're going to get Bodine.

"Real fans" would stay the course.

This is spot on!!  Agree with all u said bro

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-02-2018, 12:11 AM)Synric Wrote: I see alot of wasted money on this guy wasted money on that guy but who takes their place? If they didn't sign Minter who plays linebacker? Did Kirkpatrick not earn a contract in 2017? They wasted money on Andre Smith who saw significant amount of snaps?

 In 2018 they will have 35 mil cap space that includes with all the people that are gone in 2018 Eifert, Minter, Dennard etc...and with new rookies.


....and then you said they wasted money on Burfict their star linebacker? No just no man.

Let me ask you a question? Why do you think they didn't extend Whitworth and Zeilter?

Who plays linebacker if they didn't sign Minter? The same random rookie who did the 81.5% of the defensive snaps that Minter didn't play anyway. He played only 18.5% of the snaps. He might as well have not been there.

No, Kirkpatrick didn't earn a contract in 2017. He was good in 2016, in his 5th and contract year, and he predictably went back to being a turd in 2017 when he got paid. PFF is hardly the end-all of metrics, but they have him listed as their #91 CB in the NFL in 2017. He's also a TERRIBLE tackler, and is constantly getting thrown onto his ass and run the F over by RB.

You said they had $12m, combined with the $25m under the cap they'll be in 2018 not counting that $12m, plus $6m for cutting Jones. That's $43m.

Dennard isn't gone in 2018 because the Bengals already picked up his 5th year option ($8.5m) and that is already included in the 2018 cap space. Eifert can't stay healthy, so there's no point in mentioning him, and you already said they have to save up for Kroft. When Minter is who you have to account for leaving, you can tell you're running real thin on made up excuses.

To recap... you gave me Eifert, who has started 3 games in the last 2 years, and Minter, who played 18.5% of the defensive snaps in 2017, as the huge losses they need to budget for. Seriously?

- - - - - - - - - - -

They did waste money overpaying Burfict. They bid against themselves for some reason. Much like Bob Sanders, a great player is only great when they're actually on the field. Burfict just missed like 3.5 games from a concussion, his 5th or so concussion of his career. He's constantly injured, and now getting targeted by the league for suspensions.

He is averaging 9 games played per season over the last 4 seasons, and the Bengals threw $11m/yr at him, which is a vast overpay for a part time player. He's an amazing player WHEN he is on the field, but that isn't anywhere near often enough to justify that number. Even less so when you still had him under contract. They paid him more than Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David got, and those guys are both on the field consistently.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Honestly? They didn't extend Whit because they are idiots who didn't think he'd have a hot market (for some reason).

I don't blame them for not paying Zeitler, that was a stupid amount of money for his caliber of player. I blame them for not taking the money they saved by not signing him and using it smarter. For instance, they spent $5m on Bodine and Smith in 2017.

Which would you rather have? Bodine, Kirkpatrick, LaFell, and $12m in rollover.... OR... Andrew Whitworth, Joel Bitonio, and JC Tretter, and no rollover? I know which one would make a much better Bengals team, with an OL of Whitworth/Boling/Tretter/Bitonio/Smith.

The Bengals just use their resources really really stupidly, and don't maximize their spending ability in order to field the best possible team.

So what if you have to cut a player 2-3 years later? That's 2 years to win a SB. Other teams are too busy trying really hard to make moves to get an advantage that if you're not doing the same, you're going to end up on a 27 year playoff winless streak.

There's a reason why the Bengals haven't won a playoff game since modern FA was introduced.