Mike Brown: Rewarding / Ignoring Failure

[Bengalholic]

As we wait to see if Marvin returns or not, the mere fact that's it even still being discussed and a real possibility is mind-boggling to me...and it's a direct result of an owner who has repeatedly been indifferent to - and even rewarded - head coaches for their on field failures.

Dave Shula was given a 3 year deal when he was hired. After 2 years, his record stood at 8-24. Mike, in his infinite wisdom, looked at those results and came to the conclusion that Shula deserved a 2 year extension. Shula would have to evenyually lose 52 of his 71 games to force Mike to fire him.

Bruce Coslet walked away 3 games into the 2000 season. His team had lost 25 of it's previous 30 games and was coming off seasons of 3 and 4 wins. What was Mike's reaction to Bruce quitting? He tried to convince his to stay.

In 2002, Dick LeBeau's team posted the worst record in Bengals history at 2-14, and won only 12 games total during his time. Many people assume LeBeau was fired, but that's not the case. His 2 year deal expired and he wasn't retained. But, even in making the decision not to re-sign LeBeau, Mike sounded reluctant about the decision : "We were better than our won-loss record would indicate,'' he said. ''I can say the things I'm saying, and really nobody wants to hear them. I can believe it, but no one else cares. All that matters in this business is, 'How did you come out? Did you win or did you not?' And we did not.''

Then there's Marvin. After the 2010 season, he found himself in negotiations for a new contract. At that point, he had been with the Bengals for 8 seasons and had complied a 60-67-1 record, with 2 one and done's in the playoffs and 3 losing seasons in the previous 4 years. This also came on the heels of the Palmer situation. Looking at all that, and taking everything into account, was a new deal for Marvin warranted? Mike thought so, although it did take awhile to get there.

Then there are the questionable extensions for Marvin. One in 2015, following an NFL record setting 4th consecutive one and done. Then, another extension in 2016 after the embarrassing playoff meltdown against the Steelers.

It's not surprising in the least that Marvin could be coming back, even after back to back losing seasons. Bengals head coaches under Mike Brown don't have to be accountable in any real sense...because failure is not a deterring factor to Mike. In fact, it's often rewarded.

[McC]

(01-02-2018, 01:00 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: As we wait to see if Marvin returns or not, the mere fact that's it even still being discussed and a real possibility is mind boggling to me...and it's a direct result of an owner who has repeatedly been indifferent to - and even rewarded - head coaches for their on field failures.



Dave Shula was given a 3 year deal when he was hired. After 2 years, his record stood at 8-24. Mike, in his infinite wisdom, looked at those results and came to the conclusion that Shula deserved a 2 year extension. Shula would have to evenyually lose 52 of his 71 games to force Mike to fire him.

Bruce Coslet walked away 3 games into the 2000 season. His team had lost 25 of it's previous 30 games and was coming off seasons of 3 and 4 wins. What was Mike's reaction to Bruce quitting? He tried to talk him out of and remain the HC.

In 2002, Dick LeBeau's team posted the worst record in Bengals history at 2-14, and won only 12 games total during his time. Many people assume LeBeau was fired, but that's not the case. He 2 year deal expired and he wasn't retained. But, even in making the decision not to re-sign LeBeau, Mike sounded reluctant about the decision : "We were better than our won-loss record would indicate,'' he said. ''I can say the things I'm saying, and really nobody wants to hear them. I can believe it, but no one else cares. All that matters in this business is, 'How did you come out? Did you win or did you not?' And we did not.''

Then there's Marvin. After the 2010 season, he found himself in negotiations for a new contract. At that point, he had been with the Bengals for 8 seasons and had complied a 60-67-1 record, with 2 one and done's in the playoffs and 3 losing seasons in the previous 4 years. This also came on the heels of the Palmer situation. Looking at all that, and taking everything into account, was a new deal for Marvin warranted? Mike thought so, although it did take awhile to get there.

Then there are the questionable extensions for Marvin. One in 2015, following an NFL record setting 4th consecutive one and done. Then, another extension in 2016 after the embarrassing playoff meltdown against the Steelers.

It's not surprising in the least that Marvin could be coming back. Bengals head coaches under Mike Brown don't have to be accountable in any real sense...because failure is not a deterring factor to Mike. In fact, it's often rewarded.

Great post.  And you know the biggest thing i got out of it?    The bolded part--Mike doesn't agree with it. 

[jj22]

And no one in the family see's anything wrong with this mindset. NO ONE!

There's no hope for this franchise. Present or future.

[Bengalholic]

(01-02-2018, 01:07 PM)McC Wrote: Great post.  And you know the biggest thing i got out of it?    The bolded part--Mike doesn't agree with it. 

Here's a great quote from Lorenzo Neal after that 2002 season...

'If you're sick, you have a cold, you don't just wipe your nose with a Kleenex. You've treated the symptom, but you haven't treated the problem. I think you need to change. You have to be committed to change.''

I wish we had an owner that shared this mindset. 

[bengals67]

It is completely insane to retain Marvin except for a franchise that makes millions for the family because of television money and who do not need local ticket sales to maintain a level of profits they find acceptable.

They do not give a dam at the end of the day about winning or the fans who have supported them for 50 years.

No other organization would retain Marvin now or would have kept him as long as he has been retained. It is beyond mind boggling.

[masonbengals fan]

The only answer is to avoid going to the stadium or spending money on the team and it's products. And the Brown family may not care with revenue sharing, but the sight of empty seats may shame them into making changes. I'll do my part for a $ boycott if Marvin is patrolling the sidelines next year. But I doubt they even care.

[Millhouse]

It very much would be mind boggling if this was happening to most other teams, because those other teams would have already have been making changes to get better. But because this is Mike Brown we are talking about, it is actually par for the course. There is nothing about what is happening that should surprise anyone that has followed this team for decades now.

The only hope for Bengal fans to have a legit team to root for some day will be the day Mikey is no longer owner. But the key word there is hope, because there could be a chance that Katie if she is indeed the next owner wont be any better than he was, and will run things in very similar style. Which would indeed put all Bengal fans in an infinite hell of fandom.

[Bengalholic]

(01-02-2018, 01:44 PM)Millhouse Wrote: It very much would be mind boggling if this was happening to most other teams, because those other teams would have already have been making changes to get better. But because this is Mike Brown we are talking about, it is actually par for the course. There is nothing about what is happening that should surprise anyone that has followed this team for decades now.

The only hope for Bengal fans to have a legit team to root for some day will be the day Mikey is no longer owner. But the key word there is hope, because there could be a chance that Katie if she is indeed the next owner wont be any better than he was, and will run things in very similar style. Which would indeed put all Bengal fans in an infinite hell of fandom.

Just the fact that Mike didn't say 'Thanks Marvin, but it's time to move in another direction' after the season ended is so telling about the way he thinks, which isn't anything we didn't already know unfortunately.

The fact that a coach coming off back to back losing seasons is seemingly able to decide if he wants to return or not is just embarrassing in my opinion. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-02-2018, 01:00 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: As we wait to see if Marvin returns or not, the mere fact that's it even still being discussed and a real possibility is mind boggling to me...and it's a direct result of an owner who has repeatedly been indifferent to - and even rewarded - head coaches for their on field failures.

Dave Shula was given a 3 year deal when he was hired. After 2 years, his record stood at 8-24. Mike, in his infinite wisdom, looked at those results and came to the conclusion that Shula deserved a 2 year extension. Shula would have to evenyually lose 52 of his 71 games to force Mike to fire him.

Bruce Coslet walked away 3 games into the 2000 season. His team had lost 25 of it's previous 30 games and was coming off seasons of 3 and 4 wins. What was Mike's reaction to Bruce quitting? He tried t0 convince his to stay.

In 2002, Dick LeBeau's team posted the worst record in Bengals history at 2-14, and won only 12 games total during his time. Many people assume LeBeau was fired, but that's not the case. He 2 year deal expired and he wasn't retained. But, even in making the decision not to re-sign LeBeau, Mike sounded reluctant about the decision : "We were better than our won-loss record would indicate,'' he said. ''I can say the things I'm saying, and really nobody wants to hear them. I can believe it, but no one else cares. All that matters in this business is, 'How did you come out? Did you win or did you not?' And we did not.''

Then there's Marvin. After the 2010 season, he found himself in negotiations for a new contract. At that point, he had been with the Bengals for 8 seasons and had complied a 60-67-1 record, with 2 one and done's in the playoffs and 3 losing seasons in the previous 4 years. This also came on the heels of the Palmer situation. Looking at all that, and taking everything into account, was a new deal for Marvin warranted? Mike thought so, although it did take awhile to get there.

Then there are the questionable extensions for Marvin. One in 2015, following an NFL record setting 4th consecutive one and done. Then, another extension in 2016 after the embarrassing playoff meltdown against the Steelers.

It's not surprised in the least that Marvin could be coming back, even after back to back losing seasons. Bengals head coaches under Mike Brown don't have to be accountable in any real sense...because failure is not a deterring factor to Mike. In fact, it's often rewarded.

I feel really sick today and it isn't just a hangover.

Spot on Holic. If Marv is back i hope every Bengal fan stops buying gear and tickets.

Rewarding failure is the problem with this world today. The anti American dream.

About done with this shit show and i was always one of the most positive Bengal fans.

[Millhouse]

(01-02-2018, 02:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Just the fact that Mike didn't say 'Thanks Marvin, but it's time to move in another direction' after the season ended is so telling about the way he thinks, which isn't anything we didn't already know unfortunately.

The fact that a coach coming off back to back losing seasons is seemingly able to decide if he wants to return or not is just embarrassing in my opinion. 

And not to mention this was a poorly coached team this season, period. From how the Ross fiasco unfolded, using wrong personnel until injuries occurred, having a lack of a 'fighting spirit' out there, the best player on offense if not the team just seemed to fall off and hit his breaking points. Obviously the 15 year tenure should play into it as well, but this last season was poorly coached more than ever it seems.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-02-2018, 02:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Just the fact that Mike didn't say 'Thanks Marvin, but it's time to move in another direction' after the season ended is so telling about the way he thinks, which isn't anything we didn't already know unfortunately.

The fact that a coach coming off back to back losing seasons is seemingly able to decide if he wants to return or not is just embarrassing in my opinion. 

Marvin said words to the effect of " I'm out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season, and anything less is a failure"

Is 15 years enough tries ? 

The problem is Mike Brown isn't out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season. He's out to line his pockets with money and if winning happens to go along with it, it's a good thing. If it happens to not, oh well.

Marvin said "Mike and I have to be on the same page" something like that. Have Mike and Marvin ever truly been on the same page ?

I'm 1000% convinced Mike and PA were co conspirators in the O-line debacle this season. PA told him I'll coach em up and it played right into Mike Brown's wheel house, it saved money.

Someone explain to me how Mike and Marvin can get "on the same page" ? 

What the truth is - Marvin will swallow the chit Mike dishes out and it will save Mike money and his bestie PA will still have a job.

Sickening

[bengals67]

(01-02-2018, 05:54 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin said words to the effect of " I'm out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season, and anything less is a failure"

Is 15 years enough tries ? 

The problem is Mike Brown isn't out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season. He's out to line his pockets with money and if winning happens to go along with it, it's a good thing. If it happens to not, oh well.

Marvin said "Mike and I have to be on the same page" something like that. Have Mike and Marvin ever truly been on the same page ?

I'm 1000% convinced Mike and PA were co conspirators in the O-line debacle this season. PA told him I'll coach em up and it played right into Mike Brown's wheel house, it saved money.

Someone explain to me how Mike and Marvin can get "on the same page" ? 

What the truth is - Marvin will swallow the chit Mike dishes out and it will save Mike money and his bestie PA will still have a job.

Sickening

sad but so true

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-02-2018, 05:54 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin said words to the effect of " I'm out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season, and anything less is a failure"

Is 15 years enough tries ? 

The problem is Mike Brown isn't out to win a Super Bowl at the start of the season. He's out to line his pockets with money and if winning happens to go along with it, it's a good thing. If it happens to not, oh well.

Marvin said "Mike and I have to be on the same page" something like that. Have Mike and Marvin ever truly been on the same page ?

I'm 1000% convinced Mike and PA were co conspirators in the O-line debacle this season. PA told him I'll coach em up and it played right into Mike Brown's wheel house, it saved money.

Someone explain to me how Mike and Marvin can get "on the same page" ? 

What the truth is - Marvin will swallow the chit Mike dishes out and it will save Mike money and his bestie PA will still have a job.

Sickening

When Paul Alexander gets his pink slip I’ll feel way better about this.

[Benton]

(01-03-2018, 12:14 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: When Paul Alexander gets his pink slip I’ll feel way better about this.

Going to be a long two years, I think.

[GodFather]

(01-02-2018, 02:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Just the fact that Mike didn't say 'Thanks Marvin, but it's time to move in another direction' after the season ended is so telling about the way he thinks, which isn't anything we didn't already know unfortunately.

The fact that a coach coming off back to back losing seasons is seemingly able to decide if he wants to return or not is just embarrassing in my opinion. 

Yes, and no matter what lip service he brings on wanting a SB ring, his actions show otherwise. I see a lazy, incompetent owner who doesn't want to put the work in that is needed to win  the ring and would rather stay average and count his money and take money from Hamilton County. (If I lived there, I would move. Imagine paying your taxes to keep his stadium open? Id lose my F'ing mind)

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2018, 11:52 AM)GodFather Wrote: Yes, and no matter what lip service he brings on wanting a SB ring, his actions show otherwise. I see a lazy, incompetent owner who doesn't want to put the work in that is needed to win  the ring and would rather stay average and count his money and take money from Hamilton County. (If I lived there, I would move. Imagine paying your taxes to keep his stadium open? Id lose my F'ing mind)

Yeah, this latest Marvin deal is just another example of Mike ignoring and/or rewarding failure. 

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2018, 12:14 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: When Paul Alexander gets his pink slip I’ll feel way better about this.

Well, him being gone is a good thing, a very good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that Marvin was once again not held accountable himself.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-04-2018, 12:59 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Well, him being gone is a good thing, a very good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that Marvin was once again not held accountable himself.

Mike Brown lives in a strange foreign world, to most of us. I'm not sure anybody can really understand and certainly don't agree with his thought process ?

I guess though our only hope is that he's finally realized he can't do it all his way and continue being cheap. And that Marvin left alone to call the shots will do a better job.

Perhaps free of PA he will ? It's a giant stretch for sure and I have serious doubts real change is coming. We'll see soon enough

[Goalpost]

(01-04-2018, 12:59 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Well, him being gone is a good thing, a very good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that Marvin was once again not held accountable himself.

Which is why we need a GM. Marvin wasn’t going to remove himself, and Mike is just inadequate to change. I figure with a prior GM in place Marvin would have been released at least twice by my count.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2018, 12:59 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Well, him being gone is a good thing, a very good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that Marvin was once again not held accountable himself.

True enough PA wasn't the only stubborn cuss.

Marv needs to look at himself as well for our failures, only then can he improve as a HC.

Lazor must have control of his Offense or it won't matter. Won't win in the Playoffs under Marv.

But having a decent O-line coach will definately help us, that is for sure.