Does Tomlin still ride Cowher's coattails?

[JS-Steelerfan]

Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

Is Ben still the Steelers QB?

[*michaelsean*]

Certainly anything that he accomplishes now is his. We will see how good a coach he is when Ben retires. But then again I don't know that Cowher did all that much pre-Ben either. Well he did make it to the Super Bowl with O'donnell didn't he?

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-10-2018, 07:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Is Ben still the Steelers QB?

How many Super Bowls did Cowher win without Ben?

How many did Noll win without Bradshaw? Or Bellicheck without Brady? Dungy without Manning? Landry without Staubach? Lombardi without Starr? Madden without Stabler? Here's a hint: combined, it's the same number as Bengal Super Bowl wins over the years ...

I get what you're implying, but if having a great QB disqualifies coaches from being considered great, we'd have to eliminate a huge portion of the generally accepted pantheon. Nearly every coach I mentioned above is either in the Hall of Fame or will be some day, and NONE of them won the Super Bowl without a Hall of Fame-level quarterback. It has been done, but very few of the historically great coaches have done it.

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-11-2018, 10:38 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Certainly anything that he accomplishes now is his. We will see how good a coach he is when Ben retires. But then again I don't know that Cowher did all that much pre-Ben either. Well he did make it to the Super Bowl with O'donnell didn't he?

And what was the result of that Super Bowl? As for the rest, see my previous post.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-11-2018, 01:02 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: And what was the result of that Super Bowl?  As for the rest, see my previous post.

Some no name corner made millions because he caught two balls thrown right at him.  

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-11-2018, 01:09 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Some no name corner made millions because he caught two balls thrown right at him.  

Edit: His name is Larry Brown. He may have been a no-name, but Steeler fans of that era probably remember that name as readily (and with as much contempt) as you guys remember the name Kimo van Oelhoffen.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-11-2018, 12:47 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: How many Super Bowls did Cowher win without Ben?

How many did Noll win without Bradshaw?  Or Bellicheck without Brady?  Dungy without Manning?  Landry without Staubach? Lombardi without Starr?  Madden without Stabler? Here's a hint: combined, it's the same number as Bengal Super Bowl wins over the years ...

I get what you're implying, but if having a great QB disqualifies coaches from being considered great, we'd have to eliminate a huge portion of the generally accepted pantheon.  Nearly every coach I mentioned above is either in the Hall of Fame or will be some day, and NONE of them won the Super Bowl without a Hall of Fame-level quarterback.  It has been done, but very few of the historically great coaches have done it.

I wouldn't say it disqualifies them, but i'd like to see how they do when they have to find that new franchise QB and how they do with him, to see how his HC abilities are then perceived. 

Your OP asked about the team--if he's still riding the coat tails. I'd say that's kind of hard to judge when you have a future HOF QB in his prime. The team continues do draft and acquire talent, but i've seen how that team has done when Ben has been down for a period of time. 

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-11-2018, 03:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I wouldn't say it disqualifies them, but i'd like to see how they do when they have to find that new franchise QB and how they do with him, to see how his HC abilities are then perceived. 

Your OP asked about the team--if he's still riding the coat tails. I'd say that's kind of hard to judge when you have a future HOF QB in his prime. The team continues do draft and acquire talent, but i've seen how that team has done when Ben has been down for a period of time. 

So, you prefer to evaluate a coach based on something that in most organizations is the responsibility of someone else?  Yes, I know that a coach is supposed to participate in the process, but most organizations hire someone whose main responsibility is acquiring talent.  The coach may advise the grocery shopping process, but his main responsibility is to be the chef once the ingredients are in place.  

As for how they've done without Ben, how many organizations do you know of that routinely carry two franchise quarterbacks on their roster?  You're holding up a ridiculous standard.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-11-2018, 11:16 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: So, you prefer to evaluate a coach based on something that in most organizations is the responsibility of someone else?  Yes, I know that a coach is supposed to participate in the process, but most organizations hire someone whose main responsibility is acquiring talent.  The coach may advise the grocery shopping process, but his main responsibility is to be the chef once the ingredients are in place.  

As for how they've done without Ben, how many organizations do you know of that routinely carry two franchise quarterbacks on their roster?  You're holding up a ridiculous standard.  

Not really holding them to a standard, let alone a ridiculous one. Vick had some success in a couple places. Landry was a major college big program QB. There is/was a lot of talent there. Too much for them to look as bad as they did. 

When Dalton went down in '15, McCarron came in and was able to keep his play at a 90+ QB rating level. 

As i said in my last post, you asked about those that talked about if Tomlin was still riding Cowher's coat tails. As long as he still has Ben, he is in a way. 

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-11-2018, 11:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not really holding them to a standard, let alone a ridiculous one. Vick had some success in a couple places. Landry was a major college big program QB. There is/was a lot of talent there. Too much for them to look as bad as they did. 

When Dalton went down in '15, McCarron came in and was able to keep his play at a 90+ QB rating level. 

As i said in my last post, you asked about those that talked about if Tomlin was still riding Cowher's coat tails. As long as he still has Ben, he is in a way. 

Vick came to the Steelers at the end of his career and his level of play was such that he didn't even get picked up that year until the Steelers had a backup get  injuried in training camp.  He was never signed again after that season.  But sure, let's use him as an example of someone the Steelers should have gotten elite play out of.    

As for Landry, the Big 12 doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing elite quarterbacks.  The styles of play are different enough that success there has not necessarily consistently translated into NFL greatness.  Go ahead and name a current elite NFL QB from the Big 12.  Heck, give me your top five all time.  This site put together such a list and they had Kordell Stewsrt at five.  'Nuff said.  

The point is that expecting a coach to get  either one of those two to produce like Ben is ridiculous.  McCarron has the potential to be better than either of those guys (in Vick's case using his Steeler era as the only point of comparison).

To your main point, Tomlin got Ben in only the fourth year of Ben's career.  In reviewing said career, one could argue that he underwent most of his professional growth under Tomlin's tenure.  Ben was not exactly at his most developed point football-wise In 2007.  Obviously the head coach isn't solely responsible for that, but he is the guy who put together the staff that helped him grow.

[6andcounting]

(01-12-2018, 08:58 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: To your main point, Tomlin got Ben in only the fourth year of Ben's career.  In reviewing said career, one could argue that he underwent most of his professional growth under Tomlin's tenure.  Ben was not exactly at his most developed point football-wise at that time.  Obviously the head coach isn't solely responsible for that, but he is the guy who put together the staff that helped him grow.

Ben biggest jump in being an on-field coach of a quarterback and overall putting up elite numbers consistently came after Cowher holdout Arians was fired and Tomlin brought in his on OC. So far the biggest mistake on Tomin's career has been keeping Arians 2 years too long. A more tenured coach could have justified firing him about 4 years before Tomlin did. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-12-2018, 08:58 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Vick came to the Steelers at the end of his career and his level of play was such that he didn't even get picked up that year until the Steelers had a backup get  injuried in training camp.  He was never signed again after that season.  But sure, let's use him as an example of someone the Steelers should have gotten elite play out of.    

As for Landry, the Big 12 doesn't exactly have a reputation for producing elite quarterbacks.  The styles of play are different enough that success there has not necessarily consistently translated into NFL greatness.  Go ahead and name a current elite NFL QB from the Big 12.  Heck, give me your top five all time.  This site put together such a list and they had Kordell Stewsrt at five.  'Nuff said.  

The point is that expecting a coach to get  either one of those two to produce like Ben is ridiculous.  McCarron has the potential to be better than either of those guys (in Vick's case using his Steeler era as the only point of comparison).

To your main point, Tomlin got Ben in only the fourth year of Ben's career.  In reviewing said career, one could argue that he underwent most of his professional growth under Tomlin's tenure.  Ben was not exactly at his most developed point football-wise In 2007.  Obviously the head coach isn't solely responsible for that, but he is the guy who put together the staff that helped him grow.

Ben had plenty of talent when he was drafted. The key was trusting him and giving him the right system. Even with that, he's best known for extending plays. You can't teach that. 

We can debate for days. I'm just going to wait and see who's next and then we will see how good Tomlin is if he has to work with a less than HOF type QB. 

I'm not putting this on Tomlin for the most part because, as you said, there are others in the mix, but the Pitt D is nothing like it had been for the greater part of 15 years. They had an excellent track record of bringing new guys in to keep the standard up, but over the last few years they've dropped off noticeably. 

The debate really shouldn't be about Tomlin anyway. The real debate is about who is in charge of drafting and FA. That's been the key to Pitt's success for the last 25 years. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-12-2018, 09:34 AM)6andcounting Wrote: Ben biggest jump in being an on-field coach of a quarterback and overall putting up elite numbers consistently came after Cowher holdout Arians was fired and Tomlin brought in his on OC. So far the biggest mistake on Tomin's career has been keeping Arians 2 years too long. A more tenured coach could have justified firing him about 4 years before Tomlin did. 

What was the issue with Arians? Didn't Ben really like him, and isn't he considered one of the top offensive minds in the NFL, specifically with QBs?

[6andcounting]

(01-12-2018, 01:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: What was the issue with Arians? Didn't Ben really like him, and isn't he considered one of the top offensive minds in the NFL, specifically with QBs?

He's supposed to be that and has done well as a head coach, but neither Ben nor the offense developed in 6 or 7 years. No commitment to the run game. No play action. Just Ben waiting in the pocket to through it 50 yards down field while an obvious blitz was coming and bubble screens. 

Ben gets sacked way less and we can actually play ball control offense.

[bengalguy71]

(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

Terry Bradshaw seems to think so and I agree 100%.  With the talent they have had, they should be in the AFC Championship games MOST of the time!

Maybe they need to stop making videos and pissing and moaning about prima donna contracts two days before a playoff game.

[The Real Deal]

(01-10-2018, 11:01 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Some time ago, the rap on Mike Tomlin was that he had only won because he was coaching the team Cowher built.  I never really thought that was a valid argument, since it takes a lot of ability to coach even a talented team to success.  

But nonetheless, when the Steelers drooped earlier this decade (a very similar swoon to what the Cowher-led Steelers suffered in the late 90s, by the way) many saw that as validation of this view.  In a recent search of the smack forum, I even saw evidence of this thinking as late as 2015.  

But given the success of the last few years and the crop of talent that has come on board on both sides of the ball during the Tomlin era, is it time to finally put this argument out of its misery?  Or are there still some of you out there who think that Tomlin doesn't deserve the credit he gets?

Probably rethinking this thread right about now, eh?

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-15-2018, 02:03 AM)The Real Deal Wrote: Probably rethinking this thread right about now, eh?

Not really. I’m old enough to remember people calling for Cowher’s head after his failures to win the big ones. When he finally won the Super Bowl, he erased a LOT of Steeler fan memories of his past failures.

[6andcounting]

(01-15-2018, 09:08 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Not really.  I’m old enough to remember people calling for Cowher’s head after his failures to win the big ones.  When he finally won the Super Bowl, he erased a LOT of Steeler fan memories of his past failures.

Cowhers big loses always came down to having to open up the offense, but being stuck with a shitty quarterback. Throw in some bad special teams play, and that was a classic Cowher lose.

Tomlin's big loses seem to involve trailing early because we wait until the 2nd quarter to start competing, bad situational decision making/clock management and an offensive game plan that played into the strength of the defense. And we get 3 to 4 of them a year.

[JS-Steelerfan]

(01-15-2018, 01:34 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Cowhers big loses always came down to having to open up the offense, but being stuck with a shitty quarterback. Throw in some bad special teams play, and that was a classic Cowher lose.

Tomlin's big loses seem to involve trailing early because we wait until the 2nd quarter to start competing, bad situational decision making/clock management and an offensive game plan that played into the strength of the defense. And we get 3 to 4 of them a year.

Fair, but Cowher currently maintains a lead in the losing season department, 3-0.