The Playoff win HINGE POINT - does it really show a team's true Caliber

[depthchart]

The Playoff Win seems to be the Hinge Point of contention between those that see Mike & Marvin's PEAK ability as being 0 and 7 in the playoffs versus those that saw the potential of at least 2 Mike & Marvin teams that sustained key quarterback injuries that derailed their chance to play their playoff games with what most consider to be the key piece. (the starting QBs) (2015 team and 2005 Palmer/ Henry team)

Most will agree that Mike & Marvin have literally PEAKED at playoff appearances that end with losses. (actual record 0 and 7)

The arguments amongst fans Hinge on the playoff win itself and whether the 2015 and 2005 Bengal teams were capable of doing more (if healthy.

Most agree that these two teams are Mike & Marvin's BEST work together and most agree that them being a DECADE apart from each other is a major knock on Mike & Marvin.

"You are what your record says you are" is applicable here and fans have every right to stick Mike & Marvin's playoff record in their faces.

I was one that wanted a complete Overhaul with a New Head Coach that could choose his Assistants and a fresh start.

We won't be getting that.

So I look at what we get (Mike & Marvin) and view their past, see the many lows and look at the couple of Peaks.

When some see the 2015 and 2005 peaks they see it as Proof that Mike & Marvin are incapable of peaking any higher with a Playoff win.

Most agree that arguing over whether a Super Bowl run is coming would be a silly thing to argue over, so we are left arguing over the Playoff win.

Do we have any chance at all of Peaking a little bit higher ? A playoff win.

Some see this as an endorsement of Mike & Marvin. I see it as the Hinge Point of where Bengal Fans somewhat realistic Hopes may be forced to focus given Mike & Marvin's deficiencies.

Not a far fetched Goal given the quality of the 2015 and 2005 teams Mike & Marvin built but seemingly insurmountable given 15 years of Mike & Marvin never getting there.

The Hinge Point.

Something as simple as the right matchup or being healthy with the right team can edge a team over that Hump.

To me, some playoff game losing teams are better than some playoff game winning teams.

Example:

The 2015 Bengal team took the eventual Super Bowl winning Broncos to overtime in Denver during the regular season then lost to Big Ben with a rather inexperienced AJ McCarron. Normally ball security reliable, at the time, Jeremy Hill fumbles late. The 2005 Bengal team lost to the eventual Super Bowl Champion (Steelers) after suffering the loss of Palmer/Henry.

The 2016 Texans led by Brock Osweiler obtained a Playoff Game win by beating the Connor Cook led Raiders.

Had either our 2015 or 2005 Bengal teams drawn a Connor Cook led Raiders caliber Matchup they could have easily each won Playoff games.

Not all playoff games are equal in caliber and therefore, concluding that Marvin can't Coach well enough to win a playoff game based on 0 and 7 may be too over-arching of a proclamation.

Playoff game competition levels TEND to get more difficult than most regular season matchups but not ALWAYS or in EVERY CASE.

Therefore, the Playoff Game HINGE POINT can be talked about in real record terms as an absolute (0 and 7), however, those that recognize the SPREAD in Caliber of some playoff game winning teams versus teams that have lost due to tougher matchups can make a case for it being possible that the 2015 and 2005 teams were very CAPABLE teams. More capable than some playoff game winning teams and much more capable than some teams that they beat to get their playoff wins. (Brock Osweiler Texans over Connor Cook Raiders as one example)

It may be more accurate to say that Mike can assemble a playoff game winning caliber team and Marvin can Coach well enough to win a playoff game given the right circumstances, health and matchups. Peaking a little higher is possible.

In short, Mike & Marvin suck but may not suck quite as much as some suggest.

[*ochocincos*]

Worth adding in Bengals-Chargers playoff game for the 2013 season too.
The Bengals were up 10-7 at the half and chose to stop rushing the ball for the most part in the second half when it was working very well in the first half.

The only playoff game I really never felt the Bengals had any hope of ever winning going into the game was the Colts playoff game when AJ, Jones, and Eifert were all out due to injury.

[fredtoast]

(02-12-2018, 02:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Worth adding in Bengals-Chargers playoff game for the 2013 season too.
The Bengals were up 10-7 at the half and chose to stop rushing the ball for the most part in the second half when it was working very well in the first half.

They ran the ball on 6 of their first 7 first downs in the second half.  They only "chose" to stop when they stopped gaining yards.  After gaining 12 yards on the first carry of the second half the Bengals only gained a total of 4 yards on their next 4 first down carries.  And by then they were down by 2 scores with just 6 minutes left.

[depthchart]

(02-12-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They ran the ball on 6 of their first 7 first downs in the second half.  They only "chose" to stop when they stopped gaining yards.  After gaining 12 yards on the first carry of the second half the Bengals only gained a total of 4 yards on their next 4 first down carries.  And by then they were down by 2 scores with just 6 minutes left.

How many rushing yards did we give up ?

[*ochocincos*]

(02-12-2018, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They ran the ball on 6 of their first 7 first downs in the second half.  They only "chose" to stop when they stopped gaining yards.  After gaining 12 yards on the first carry of the second half the Bengals only gained a total of 4 yards on their next 4 first down carries.  And by then they were down by 2 scores with just 6 minutes left.

1) That timeline is a little off and misleading. The Bengals were up 10-7 at halftime. By the end of the third quarter, they were only down 17-10. With 14:20 remaining, the Chargers kick a FG to go up by 10. Yes, technically this is two scores, but it's "just" a TD, XP, and FG difference. Not two TDs. It wasn't until the last 2:30 that the game got out of reach with Ronnie Brown's 58-yard TD run to put the Chargers up 26-10.

2) Here's when the rushing attempts came in the second half...
14:55 in 3Q - BJGE for 12 yards
14:16 in 3Q - BJGE for 3 yards
1:54 in 3Q - Bernard for 2 yards
14:10 in 4Q - Bernard for -1 yards
13:12 in 4Q - Bernard 0 yards
12:11 in 4Q - Bernard for 6 yards
6:37 in 4Q - Bernard for 12 yards

You accurately did call me out on being wrong about the rushing. I spoke incorrectly. I should have specified rushing with BJGE, who got a whole two carries in the second half when he had a YPC of 5.3. I get using Bernard more once the team went down by two scores, but that didn't happen until the fourth quarter.
It also didn't help that Dalton fumbled once, threw two picks, and was sacked a couple times all in the second half. But maybe if they team had chosen to run the ball with BJGE a few more times in the second half when it was clearly working in the first half, at least some of that stuff wouldn't have happened.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-12-2018, 03:18 PM)depthchart Wrote: How many rushing yards did we give up ?

196.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=340105004

[J24]

(02-12-2018, 03:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: 1) That timeline is a little off and misleading. The Bengals were up 10-7 at halftime. By the end of the third quarter, they were only down 17-10. With 14:20 remaining, the Chargers kick a FG to go up by 10. Yes, technically this is two scores, but it's "just" a TD, XP, and FG difference. Not two TDs. It wasn't until the last 2:30 that the game got out of reach with Ronnie Brown's 58-yard TD run to put the Chargers up 26-10.

2) Here's when the rushing attempts came in the second half...
14:55 in 3Q - BJGE for 12 yards
14:16 in 3Q - BJGE for 3 yards
1:54 in 3Q - Bernard for 2 yards
14:10 in 4Q - Bernard for -1 yards
13:12 in 4Q - Bernard 0 yards
12:11 in 4Q - Bernard for 6 yards
6:37 in 4Q - Bernard for 12 yards

You accurately did call me out on being wrong about the rushing. I spoke incorrectly. I should have specified rushing with BJGE, who got a whole two carries in the second half when he had a YPC of 5.3. I get using Bernard more once the team went down by two scores, but that didn't happen until the fourth quarter.
It also didn't help that Dalton fumbled once, threw two picks, and was sacked a couple times all in the second half. But maybe if they team had chosen to run the ball with BJGE a few more times in the second half when it was clearly working in the first half, at least some of that stuff wouldn't have happened.

And that they could not stop the BGE in the first game either.

[depthchart]

(02-12-2018, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: 196.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=340105004

I am a Zimmer fan but most Bengal fans blame Mike & Marvin alone for that Charger loss.

Zimmer was unable to get his Defense to stop the run that day. (196 rushing yards allowed)

Yet it is always Mike & Marvin's loss and theirs alone to a lot of fans.

Not saying to you directly but just saying.

[bengals67]

(02-12-2018, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: 196.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=340105004

This is what I remember about that game.

Getting absolutely pushed all over the place by Chargers o line and not having any ability to stop the run.

Yet another example of Bengal implosion, poor preparation, poor game plan, poor mentality /attitude, and or poor second half performance.

[depthchart]

(02-12-2018, 03:52 PM)bengals67 Wrote: This is what I remember about that game.

Getting absolutely pushed all over the place by Chargers o line and not having any ability to stop the run.

Yet another example of Bengal implosion, poor preparation, poor game plan, poor mentality /attitude, and or poor second half performance.

Was not stopping the run that day more Marvin's fault or Zimmer's ?

[fredtoast]

When it comes to playoffs Marvin is an anomaly, bad coaches don't make the playoffs as often as Marvin, and great coaches don't lose every game in the playoffs.

There are lots of coaches who are worse than Marvin who have won playoff games, but there are no really great coaches who never won a single playoff game.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Hey, anything is possible. That 0-7 record just stands out but we could of won atleast 3 of those Playoff games.

Just terribly bad luck with Palmer going down against the Stealers.

Couldn't stop the run against the Chargers but we were running it well until we abandoned the run.

The Hill fumble and the late penalties on Burfict and Adam killed us in that one that we should of won.

I think with the emergence of a good run blocking O-line and our young players like Billings and Glasgow coming on we should
be good at both running the ball and stopping the run. I think this is where it truly will hinge.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-12-2018, 02:19 PM)depthchart Wrote: Therefore, the [b]Playoff Game HINGE POINT can be talked about in real record terms as an absolute (0 and 7), however, those that recognize the SPREAD in Caliber of some playoff game winning teams versus teams that have lost due to tougher matchups can make a case for it being possible that the 2015 and 2005 teams were very CAPABLE teams. More capable than some playoff game winning teams and much more capable than some teams that they beat to get their playoff wins. (Brock Osweiler Texans over Connor Cook Raiders as one example)[/b]

It may be more accurate to say that Mike can assemble a playoff game winning caliber team and Marvin can Coach well enough to win a playoff game given the right circumstances, health and matchups. Peaking a little higher is possible.

In short, Mike & Marvin suck but may not suck quite as much as some suggest.

In 2009 they faced the Mark Sanchez lead NY Jets, Sanchez isn't exactly in the who's who conversations of NFL QB's.

In 2011 they faced the TJ Yates lead Texans, Yates has what 4 career wins as an NFL QB ?

In 2012 they faced the Matt Schuab lead Texans.

The Bengals have had their shots at so-so QB's.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-12-2018, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When it comes to playoffs Marvin is an anomaly, bad coaches don't make the playoffs as often as Marvin, and great coaches don't lose every game in the playoffs.

There are lots of coaches who are worse than Marvin who have won playoff games, but there are no really great coaches who never won a single playoff game.

Is that a John Madden quote??

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-12-2018, 03:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: 1) That timeline is a little off and misleading. The Bengals were up 10-7 at halftime. By the end of the third quarter, they were only down 17-10. With 14:20 remaining, the Chargers kick a FG to go up by 10. Yes, technically this is two scores, but it's "just" a TD, XP, and FG difference. Not two TDs. It wasn't until the last 2:30 that the game got out of reach with Ronnie Brown's 58-yard TD run to put the Chargers up 26-10.

2) Here's when the rushing attempts came in the second half...
14:55 in 3Q - BJGE for 12 yards
14:16 in 3Q - BJGE for 3 yards
1:54 in 3Q - Bernard for 2 yards
14:10 in 4Q - Bernard for -1 yards
13:12 in 4Q - Bernard 0 yards
12:11 in 4Q - Bernard for 6 yards
6:37 in 4Q - Bernard for 12 yards

You accurately did call me out on being wrong about the rushing. I spoke incorrectly. I should have specified rushing with BJGE, who got a whole two carries in the second half when he had a YPC of 5.3. I get using Bernard more once the team went down by two scores, but that didn't happen until the fourth quarter.
It also didn't help that Dalton fumbled once, threw two picks, and was sacked a couple times all in the second half. But maybe if they team had chosen to run the ball with BJGE a few more times in the second half when it was clearly working in the first half, at least some of that stuff wouldn't have happened.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and went over this at great length on the old board.  BJGE was the key against SD, in my opinion.  He had 92 yards against them just a few weeks prior with a good YPC.  He had also had good games against them in his career, aside form one in limited action while in NE.  I posted those career numbers as well.  In fact, his career YPC against SD was around 5 yards, aside from the anomaly.  I'll never understand that decision.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-12-2018, 03:49 PM)depthchart Wrote: I am a Zimmer fan but most Bengal fans blame Mike & Marvin alone for that Charger loss.

Zimmer was unable to get his Defense to stop the run that day. (196 rushing yards allowed)

Yet it is always Mike & Marvin's loss and theirs alone to a lot of fans.

Not saying to you directly but just saying.

They mostly blame Merv and Dalton.

[grampahol]

I'm gonna go with conspiracy theories this time around. There seems to be more than a few fans and writers who have noticed how an entire team can seemingly be steamrolling their opponents to the point of hopelessness for the opponent only to suddenly and for no apparent reason turn into the worse possible team who if played the same way through the regular season would have never so much as sniffed the playoffs.
You can have a offensive and defensive juggernaut who for absolutely no reason whatsoever rolls over to play dead? You don't have to be Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstien  to think something ain't quite white in the rice.. 

[fredtoast]

(02-12-2018, 09:22 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: In 2009 they faced the Mark Sanchez lead NY Jets, Sanchez isn't exactly in the who's who conversations of NFL QB's.

In 2011 they faced the TJ Yates lead Texans, Yates has what 4 career wins as an NFL QB ?

In 2012 they faced the Matt Schuab lead Texans.

The Bengals have had their shots at so-so QB's.

'09 Jets had the #1 defense in the league and the #1 rushing offense.

'11 Texans had the #2 defense in the league and the #2 rushing offense.

In '12 Matt Schaub went to his second Pro Bowl and finished in the top 10 in passer rating for the fifth straigh season.

[Bengalholic]

(02-12-2018, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When it comes to playoffs Marvin is an anomaly, bad coaches don't make the playoffs as often as Marvin, and great coaches don't lose every game in the playoffs.

There are lots of coaches who are worse than Marvin who have won playoff games, but there are no really great coaches who never won a single playoff game.

It's fair to say Marvin was very good during the 5 year period where they went 52-27-1 and made the playoffs each year. Outside of that run, he's been pretty underwhelming, going just 73-85-2 and having only 2 winning seasons in the other 10 years.

Overall - it seems to me that the most accurate statements about Marvin are that he's been a mediocre head coach for the majority of his tenure, that had a very nice 5 year run of regular season success and that he's also the worst postseason coach in the history of the NFL. 
 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-13-2018, 03:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's fair to say Marvin was very good during the 5 year period where they went 52-27-1 and made the playoffs each year. Outside of that run, he's been pretty underwhelming, going just 73-85-2 and having only 2 winning seasons in the other 10 years.

Overall - it seems to me that the most accurate statements about Marvin are that he's been a mediocre head coach for the majority of his tenure, that had a very nice 5 year run of regular season success and that he's also the worst postseason coach in the history of the NFL. 
 

What I find intriguing about that, is he managed to win all those games in that stretch with "the worst QB in the league".