If He's There.....

[*ochocincos*]

(03-06-2018, 01:45 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I hear ya! I still wouldn't be at all surprised to see us take a CB first.... 

Same. I think Ward would make a perfect slot CB too.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2018, 01:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals putting up smokescreens everywhere. Reported a month ago that Bengals don't consider any OL at 12 but expect multiple in Rds 2-4. Also reported a week or two ago that the Bengals are confident in their current LBs so probably shouldn't expect a LB early either. Then at the Combine you hear from Tobin saying he thinks Nelson can play all five positions on OL and play them well.

At this point, I have no idea where they are leaning.

Will just have to wait and listen to Lap right before the Draft lol

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 12:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: No I think he's actually a worse prospect than Jamarcus Russell. Russell had a 67% completion percentage in college against top competition his last year to go along with a cannon. Allen has never had a good completion percentage. His tape is worse than Jamarcus.

OK.....I'll have to disagree using hindsight on Russell.  I don't think this kid is into the drugs and what not, and likely not as lazy....just needs work.  Russell wouldn't put in the work.  Time will tell.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 01:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals putting up smokescreens everywhere. Reported a month ago that Bengals don't consider any OL at 12 but expect multiple in Rds 2-4. Also reported a week or two ago that the Bengals are confident in their current LBs so probably shouldn't expect a LB early either. Then at the Combine you hear from Tobin saying he thinks Nelson can play all five positions on OL and play them well.

At this point, I have no idea where they are leaning.

I still like Smith or Edmunds in RD. 1......so it won't happen.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2018, 03:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: OK.....I'll have to disagree using hindsight on Russell.  I don't think this kid is into the drugs and what not, and likely not as lazy....just needs work.  Russell wouldn't put in the work.  Time will tell.

Same here, do not see the Jamarcus Russell comparison. Allen is great at buying time and throwing on the run.

Allen isn't lazy as you say. He will not turn into a 300 pounder like Russell did. Allen needs to work on his accuracy is all.

Needs to set up and throw with technique more often and his accuracy will improve.

Mayfield is still the best QB in this draft in my eyes, but Allen could be very good as well.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 04:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Same here, do not see the Jamarcus Russell comparison. Allen is great at buying time and throwing on the run.

Allen isn't lazy as you say. He will not turn into a 300 pounder like Russell did. Allen needs to work on his accuracy is all.

Needs to set up and throw with technique more often and his accuracy will improve.

Mayfield is still the best QB in this draft in my eyes, but Allen could be very good as well.

Yes sir.....I get ocho's point about the accuracy, and it definitely is a concern.....but I wouldn't be too mad if the Bengals took him.  Round 1 is higher than I would like to take him, but the combine may have axed that option.  We'll see how the pro day goes, I guess.

[wolfkaosaun]

(03-05-2018, 09:42 PM)McC Wrote: Time will tell.   He and Mayfield are the two best.

It's all moot for us anyway but it's fun to talk about and predict.

True, we agree and disagree on things, it's just how the draft works.
I will agree that Mayfield is one of the two best though. I'd take him in a heartbeat

(03-06-2018, 09:31 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yes, but it doesn't change the fact the same thing happened to him in relation to the "hype train". Most "experts" had Wentz as a late Round 1 early Round 2 prospect in January mocks and he steadily climbed over the months leading into the combine and after. As for being extremely different, I don't think they are that different on tape. They both are big bodied QB's who can break tackles in the pocket. When they shed the tackles they keep their eyes down field and look to make a play with their arm. Where Allen got in trouble more so was not resetting his base all the time which lead to more "arm throws" rather than full body mechanic throws. 

People continue to point at the accuracy issues and while what I mentioned before is one part, the other part is his teammates frankly weren't very good. What people forget is Carson Wentz's team was the FBS champions the year before Wentz left and were in the hunt that year followed by another championship last year. The team he was working with was far better than what Allen had. Allen was constantly under pressure and had an inordinate amount of easy passes dropped which you could make the argument anyone can deal with that, but when you watch the tape it really stood out (especially the pressure right up the middle).

All this aside, he won't be there at 12 so it's moot. If a QB is there we need to ransom that pick for a haul and move back.

Very different on tape. Josh Allen is very night and day inside and outside the pocket. He excels much more outside of it, whereas Wentz was much better inside the pocket.

Okay, here's where your wrong about the "teammates" part. He was inaccurate even to open receivers. It's clear as day. Also his receivers didn't "drop balls". In 2017, his receivers dropped 12 passes. 12. Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson's receivers dropped more passes. He gets his mechanics all messy and misses a ton of "gimme" throws. His accuracy comes and goes.
Josh Allen's receivers had a drop rate of 7.84%. Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, and Rudolph all had higher drop rate percentages.
Also, Allen makes a lot of terrible decisions. He was a turnover machine and put the ball in position for defenders to make a play on the ball against weaker competition. He attempts high risk throws quite a bit. Granted, he has an arm that can make some of those throws, there's no denying that. But his accuracy lacks in that position a lot and will be a big issue at the next level.
Oh, and his offensive line may have been an issue, but there's also MANY plays where he has protection and he just leaves the pocket or gets off schedule early through his progressions.
Allen lacks consistency with his arm talent. He arguably has the best arm in the draft, but that means little when you're so inaccurate and mechanics break down early and often. Allen leaves the pocket earlier than he should at times.

There's no denying Allen has talent. But his playing style is EXTREMELY similar to that of Jake Locker. Great arms. Athletic and can make throws out of the pocket. Evaded rushers. Keeps his head down the field to throw the ball.
But
Erratic passers that miss open receivers. Force throws. Leaves the pocket early. Progressions are very up and down. Heck, Jake Locker even got the "supporting cast" issue.

(03-06-2018, 11:36 AM)Wyche Wrote: This right here.

If he gets to us, pull the trigger.

Look up, because stats disprove that narrative. As does tape.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-06-2018, 04:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Same here, do not see the Jamarcus Russell comparison. Allen is great at buying time and throwing on the run.

Allen isn't lazy as you say. He will not turn into a 300 pounder like Russell did. Allen needs to work on his accuracy is all.

Needs to set up and throw with technique more often and his accuracy will improve.

Mayfield is still the best QB in this draft in my eyes, but Allen could be very good as well.

Apologies that saying Allen was Russell 2.0 implied laziness and/or “grape drank”. My reason for calling Allen that was because he has a cannon but is very inaccurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[J24]

The only QB I would draft in the first 100 is Mayfield but even then that would be in the 2nd. Unless we get a super deal for Andy I don't see how drafting a QB early helps us.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-06-2018, 12:09 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Normally I would agree with you, but Left Tackle is a MAJOR problem on this team. There are no good Left Tackles available in Free Agency (well maybe one, but that makes him expensive). LT has to come from the draft and has to be better than CO this year for us to do anything. If that means reaching, that's the position this team is in right now. I just don't see Boling being the answer as a full time LT, and we have to lock that spot down. McGlinchey is the most ready IMO.

Just because he might be the most experienced or ready, doesn't mean he is the best pick for a tackle.

I've seen him struggle big time against the better competition he faced.  To me, there's really no difference in the top 5 guys.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-06-2018, 09:31 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yes, but it doesn't change the fact the same thing happened to him in relation to the "hype train". Most "experts" had Wentz as a late Round 1 early Round 2 prospect in January mocks and he steadily climbed over the months leading into the combine and after. As for being extremely different, I don't think they are that different on tape. They both are big bodied QB's who can break tackles in the pocket. When they shed the tackles they keep their eyes down field and look to make a play with their arm. Where Allen got in trouble more so was not resetting his base all the time which lead to more "arm throws" rather than full body mechanic throws. 

People continue to point at the accuracy issues and while what I mentioned before is one part, the other part is his teammates frankly weren't very good. What people forget is Carson Wentz's team was the FBS champions the year before Wentz left and were in the hunt that year followed by another championship last year. The team he was working with was far better than what Allen had. Allen was constantly under pressure and had an inordinate amount of easy passes dropped which you could make the argument anyone can deal with that, but when you watch the tape it really stood out (especially the pressure right up the middle).

All this aside, he won't be there at 12 so it's moot. If a QB is there we need to ransom that pick for a haul and move back.

Completely different.  Allen has been pegged as a top 5 pick since last year.

That being said, I don't buy the whole "his teammates stunk" routine.  A good QB in college will still perform at a high level regardless of the talent around him.  Shoot, Rosen didn't have great talent around him and he went out and lit it up almost every game.  I've watched 5 or 6 of Allen's games, and I just don't get why people are so high on him.  Sure, he has measurables, but he never looks like he's controlling the game.

[Au165]

(03-06-2018, 07:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Very different on tape. Josh Allen is very night and day inside and outside the pocket. He excels much more outside of it, whereas Wentz was much better inside the pocket.

Okay, here's where your wrong about the "teammates" part. He was inaccurate even to open receivers. It's clear as day. Also his receivers didn't "drop balls". In 2017, his receivers dropped 12 passes. 12. Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson's receivers dropped more passes. He gets his mechanics all messy and misses a ton of "gimme" throws. His accuracy comes and goes.
Josh Allen's receivers had a drop rate of 7.84%. Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, and Rudolph all had higher drop rate percentages.
Also, Allen makes a lot of terrible decisions. He was a turnover machine and put the ball in position for defenders to make a play on the ball against weaker competition. He attempts high risk throws quite a bit. Granted, he has an arm that can make some of those throws, there's no denying that. But his accuracy lacks in that position a lot and will be a big issue at the next level.
Oh, and his offensive line may have been an issue, but there's also MANY plays where he has protection and he just leaves the pocket or gets off schedule early through his progressions.
Allen lacks consistency with his arm talent. He arguably has the best arm in the draft, but that means little when you're so inaccurate and mechanics break down early and often. Allen leaves the pocket earlier than he should at times.

There's no denying Allen has talent. But his playing style is EXTREMELY similar to that of Jake Locker. Great arms. Athletic and can make throws out of the pocket. Evaded rushers. Keeps his head down the field to throw the ball.
But
Erratic passers that miss open receivers. Force throws. Leaves the pocket early. Progressions are very up and down. Heck, Jake Locker even got the "supporting cast" issue.
.

We will agree to disagree. The misses are base related and can be fixed by repetition, they especially lack after he changes his launch point so focusing on resetting is big. Progressions aren’t bad it’s throw selection.He has a gunslinger mentality but he is making NFL throws in a pro system. He’ll have to learn the cost of turnovers in the NFL but Big Ben does similar things at times. If he was in Oklahoma States system with that completion percentage I’d be worried, but the throws he tried to make were tough throws in medium to deep range. The drops I reference were to the “easy” drops not the volume. His cast was bad and pressure up the middle breeds happy feet even when no pressure is coming.

I know the Locker comparison is the thing right now, but I think his mentality as far as wanting to take chances is more of his issue than lockers. I do wish his short accuracy was better but fastball throwers do tend to struggle with the touch needed for short throws. I’d honestly love to see him in an old school Bruce Arians down field attacking system. I think he has to get somewhere that he can be encouraged to take shots and make mistakes early in his career while learning from them.

Quick Edit: I was reading a comparison this morning of him to Brett Favre and that actually may be a good comp. Kind of a boom or bust gunslinger than can run and likes to take chances but will sometimes give a game away with turnovers. Favre came out of Southern Miss with a 52% completion percentage as well. Just thought it was an interesting comp I hadn't thought about.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 07:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: True, we agree and disagree on things, it's just how the draft works.
I will agree that Mayfield is one of the two best though. I'd take him in a heartbeat


Very different on tape. Josh Allen is very night and day inside and outside the pocket. He excels much more outside of it, whereas Wentz was much better inside the pocket.

Okay, here's where your wrong about the "teammates" part. He was inaccurate even to open receivers. It's clear as day. Also his receivers didn't "drop balls". In 2017, his receivers dropped 12 passes. 12. Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson's receivers dropped more passes. He gets his mechanics all messy and misses a ton of "gimme" throws. His accuracy comes and goes.
Josh Allen's receivers had a drop rate of 7.84%. Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, and Rudolph all had higher drop rate percentages.
Also, Allen makes a lot of terrible decisions. He was a turnover machine and put the ball in position for defenders to make a play on the ball against weaker competition. He attempts high risk throws quite a bit. Granted, he has an arm that can make some of those throws, there's no denying that. But his accuracy lacks in that position a lot and will be a big issue at the next level.
Oh, and his offensive line may have been an issue, but there's also MANY plays where he has protection and he just leaves the pocket or gets off schedule early through his progressions.
Allen lacks consistency with his arm talent. He arguably has the best arm in the draft, but that means little when you're so inaccurate and mechanics break down early and often. Allen leaves the pocket earlier than he should at times.

There's no denying Allen has talent. But his playing style is EXTREMELY similar to that of Jake Locker. Great arms. Athletic and can make throws out of the pocket. Evaded rushers. Keeps his head down the field to throw the ball.
But
Erratic passers that miss open receivers. Force throws. Leaves the pocket early. Progressions are very up and down. Heck, Jake Locker even got the "supporting cast" issue.


Look up, because stats disprove that narrative. As does tape.

Well said.  I must admit, what I have seen of him has been limited, cause....Wyoming.  He looked pretty good, I thought, in his bolw game.  Essentially, what I get from your analysis, he is Andy Dalton with a better arm.  That is, from a leaving the pocket and getting off schedule in his progressions standpoint.  Dalton was better at that before the line meltdown, maybe Allen could develop as well with proper coaching?  Work with House?  At any rate, as I stated in a later post, I was for taking a 2nd/3rd rd flyer on him.....but now with the combine performance he may go earlier.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 07:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Apologies that saying Allen was Russell 2.0 implied laziness and/or “grape drank”. My reason for calling Allen that was because he has a cannon but is very inaccurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what I figured you meant.....but you know me....I had to interject a sarcastic gif and the "drank" deal to get a cheap laugh or two.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: The only QB I would draft in the first 100 is Mayfield but even then that would be in the 2nd. Unless we get a super deal for Andy I don't see how drafting a QB early helps us.

The way the Bengals see things, and the way I see things, are two different viewpoints.  They think they're on the brink, I think they're closer to a rebuild than they think they are.  In my case, you're drafting/developing for the future.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2018, 07:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Apologies that saying Allen was Russell 2.0 implied laziness and/or “grape drank”. My reason for calling Allen that was because he has a cannon but is very inaccurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool brother, understand but i think what Au165 says here is a better comparison.

(03-06-2018, 10:02 PM)Au165 Wrote: We will agree to disagree. The misses are base related and can be fixed by repetition, they especially lack after he changes his launch point so focusing on resetting is big. Progressions aren’t bad it’s throw selection.He has a gunslinger mentality but he is making NFL throws in a pro system. He’ll have to learn the cost of turnovers in the NFL but Big Ben does similar things at times. If he was in Oklahoma States system with that completion percentage I’d be worried, but the throws he tried to make were tough throws in medium to deep range. The drops I reference were to the “easy” drops not the volume. His cast was bad and pressure up the middle breeds happy feet even when no pressure is coming.

I know the Locker comparison is the thing right now, but I think his mentality as far as wanting to take chances is more of his issue than lockers. I do wish his short accuracy was better but fastball throwers do tend to struggle with the touch needed for short throws. I’d honestly love to see him in an old school Bruce Arians down field attacking system. I think he has to get somewhere that he can be encouraged to take shots and make mistakes early in his career while learning from them.

Quick Edit: I was reading a comparison this morning of him to Brett Favre and that actually may be a good comp. Kind of a boom or bust gunslinger than can run and likes to take chances but will sometimes give a game away with turnovers. Favre came out of Southern Miss with a 52% completion percentage as well. Just thought it was an interesting comp I hadn't thought about.

:andy: