Top 10 Highest Graded Seasons for College Centers in PFF Era

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2018, 11:09 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: For the same reasons I am hesitant about him in the first round before this chart made it on the board.

He's an average athlete, coming off an injury, mediocre footwork, relatively average in just about every metric relative to other prospect's projectable value.

Walterfootball ranks the Centers based on each skill of a Center here:
http://walterfootball.com/draft2018positionreviewC.php

Ragnow is in the middle of the pack in just about every category.

Why do you think he is worth a 1st round pick, other than college production?

Quote:Ragnow set personal bests in the vertical jump (33.5 inches) and broad jump (9 feet, 7 inches), which would have ranked second among offensive linemen at the combine. His 40-yard dash time of 4.98 would have been fifth, while his 27 bench press reps would have tied for eighth.

The only number he was disappointed in was his bench press because he had been doing much better than that during his training.
“I’ve done 36, so I kind of choked there,” Ragnow said.

As for the bench number, Ragnow put up 26 at the Combine, which was second-best for C's (behind only Brian Allen). Putting up 27 at his Pro Day tied Brian Allen.
https://247sports.com/college/arkansas/Article/Pro-Day-Report-Arkansas-Razorbacks-center-Frank-Ragnow-safety-Josh-Liddell-shine-116718349

So based on that, I disagree that Ragnow is an average athlete.

As for his performance on the field, he's the most well-rounded in terms of both pass and run protection compared to Daniels and Price. He has a good anchor and good size/length. He has good tape too from what I've watched.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2018, 11:04 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: From this thread:
"Billy Price is conspicuously absent. Anyone have insights as to why that might be?"
"So, 10 points behind Ragnow. I wonder if Pollack, Mervin, et al see it the same way. "
"So.... now that he's "healthy," you really can't wait until round 2 to take the guy. He's probably all but assured to go in the late 20's - late 30s."
"Yea I think so too. Bengals might be able to trade back from 21 and get him if they can, but I'm cool with him at 21."
"Well, i am sold at taking Ragnow at 21 now. From the SEC, longer arms than Price, bigger and nastier than Daniels. Smart."
"So this Tejan Koroma dude from BYU has some impressive scores from the past two years, he's in this draft class, yet we've not seen a single mention of him in any draft conversation."
"Either way this is who i want now, took awhile but is tops in my eyes now for sure."
"Yet, before it was official that Daniels was declaring, Price was the "hands down" top rated Center by all of the geeks that rate them."
"Yep, talking heads and i have to admit they got to me for awhile. No more, Ragnow was the best Center before his injury and now"


All of these comments are indicative of this list changing opinions, rather than reinforcing them.

None of which were from me though.
A couple others really liked Ragnow before this as they did more research into him, which they have stated in other threads.
If this helps reinforce their opinion, great. But no one has stated that they didn't like him before reading this and now have all of a sudden changed their minds.

[jj22]

Ragnow is my pick. Just not sold on him at 21 yet.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2018, 11:09 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: For the same reasons I am hesitant about him in the first round before this chart made it on the board.

He's an average athlete, coming off an injury, mediocre footwork, relatively average in just about every metric relative to other prospect's projectable value.

Walterfootball ranks the Centers based on each skill of a Center here:
http://walterfootball.com/draft2018positionreviewC.php

Ragnow is in the middle of the pack in just about every category.

Why do you think he is worth a 1st round pick, other than college production?

From what I've seen/read, Ragnow and Price really aren't that different. Both are versatile, power-based guys who can anchor against big NTs. Both are studs in the ground game while also being at least sound in the pass game. Both have mean streaks and look to finish. Both can get to the second level consistently. Both also don't have the best feet.

The reasons I personally like Ragnow just slightly over Price:
Ragnow is a little bigger than Price with over an inch longer arms to help keep defenders at bay.
Ragnow was better on the field (slightly) than Price
There are multiple reports of Price being such a "lunger" and impatient. I don't see that same thing from Ragnow (at least not as often).
Price is coming off a pec injury and should/might be ready for TC but will miss OTAs and minicamp. Ragnow has shown his ankle injury from last October is fully healed, as evidenced by his Pro Day.

Daniels doesn't seem as good of a fit in Pollack's scheme because of his lesser ability to anchor against big NTs and not as powerful as the other two. But he's more athletic than either.

At the end of the day, I like all three of these guys a lot and think they will all be good starters. But I would prefer Price or Ragnow due to what I think is a better fit with the team. And then from there I'd prefer Ragnow because of his slight edge on the field, no longer recovering from injury, and seems more technically sound and reliable than Price.

[Mike M (the other one)]

While those 3 are good, what if we miss out on all of them?
What's Brian Allen's (Michigan St) rank?
He seems to be overlooked a lot as well. He was the Big Ten 2nd Team C.
He's 6'1, and about 10 pounds lighter than the trio, and only Daniels has longer arms than him.
Wasn't he PFF's highest rated C in the Big Ten for 2017? It was his first year playing C.

Just curious about him.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2018, 01:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: While those 3 are good, what if we miss out on all of them?
What's Brian Allen's (Michigan St) rank?
He seems to be overlooked a lot as well. He was the Big Ten 2nd Team C.
He's 6'1, and about 10 pounds lighter than the trio, and only Daniels has longer arms than him.
Wasn't he PFF's highest rated C in the Big Ten for 2017? It was his first year playing C.

Just curious about him.

James Daniels is in the Big 10 so I don't see how Allen could have been rated #1 in Big 10. His rating was 86.2.
https://247sports.com/college/michigan-state/Bolt/Brian-Allen-lands-on-PFFs-All-Big-Ten-team-111842679

Also, not sure where you got the arm length factoid about only Daniels having longer arms than him...Allen has 32.375" arms and Ragnow has 33.125" arms.

I could see Allen being an underrated target as a backup as early as 5th round but likely 6-7.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-05-2018, 11:04 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: From this thread:
"Billy Price is conspicuously absent. Anyone have insights as to why that might be?"
"So, 10 points behind Ragnow. I wonder if Pollack, Mervin, et al see it the same way. "
"So.... now that he's "healthy," you really can't wait until round 2 to take the guy. He's probably all but assured to go in the late 20's - late 30s."
"Yea I think so too. Bengals might be able to trade back from 21 and get him if they can, but I'm cool with him at 21."
"Well, i am sold at taking Ragnow at 21 now. From the SEC, longer arms than Price, bigger and nastier than Daniels. Smart."
"So this Tejan Koroma dude from BYU has some impressive scores from the past two years, he's in this draft class, yet we've not seen a single mention of him in any draft conversation."
"Either way this is who i want now, took awhile but is tops in my eyes now for sure."
"Yet, before it was official that Daniels was declaring, Price was the "hands down" top rated Center by all of the geeks that rate them."
"Yep, talking heads and i have to admit they got to me for awhile. No more, Ragnow was the best Center before his injury and now"


All of these comments are indicative of this list changing opinions, rather than reinforcing them.

In regard to the bolded comments. (those are the ones that I made)  

I made the Koroma comment in an effort to draw attention to the value, or lack of, that the PFF list implies.  I.e. calling it into question.  Meaning, if Koroma was so good, why have we not heard a peep about him?  As I went to look him up on NFL.com, and he wasn't even listed.

I made the comment about Price, because he is, and has been my favorite since the end of CFB season.  After studying Ragnow and Daniels, I have Price and Ragnow both as the right fit for this team.  Call them 1 and 1A.  I have Daniels and Cole as lesser options, as I don't think that either of them will stand up to NFL 3-4 NTs without assistance from a Guard. (at least in their first couple years)

Personally, I think that all of them should be available in the 2nd round, just maybe not at the 46th pick.

[sandwedge]

I could take all 3 and be happy. Price played center for 1 season, so I wouldn't expect his PFF rating to be as high as Ragnow or Daniels. I do have to agree with Crazyjdawg a little here about their college ratings. Didn't we draft another center from Arkansas a couple of years back, Jonathon Luiggs? He actually was a Remington winner, if I remember correctly?? He never took 1 snap here or anywhere else.

[*Synric*]

(04-05-2018, 12:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: None of which were from me though.
A couple others really liked Ragnow before this as they did more research into him, which they have stated in other threads.
If this helps reinforce their opinion, great. But no one has stated that they didn't like him before reading this and now have all of a sudden changed their minds.

Which would be me. 

I've been pushing Frank Ragnow, Rashaan Evans, and Harrison Phillips since early in the draft process this year....

To be fair I was on the Ragnow train early 2017 before he decided to stay at Arkansas for his senior year. His injury and not being able to do alot of the draft things hurt his stock early but with his pro day numbers it definitely pushed him up the boards.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2018, 02:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I could take all 3 and be happy. Price played center for 1 season, so I wouldn't expect his PFF rating to be as high as Ragnow or Daniels. I do have to agree with Crazyjdawg a little here about their college ratings. Didn't we draft another center from Arkansas a couple of years back, Jonathon Luiggs? He actually was a Remington winner, if I remember correctly??  He never took 1 snap here or anywhere else.

Luigs won the Remington trophy in 2007 and was drafted in the 4th round in 2009.
He was waived after just one season due to multiple hip injuries that limited him to just eight career NFL games. He retired after that season.
Leading into the draft, NFL.com scouting profile said that even in a deep center class, he was regarded by "many" as the top C prospect. He only had 31.25" arm length though.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jonathan-luigs?id=71373

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-05-2018, 10:25 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Sure. If it makes you feel better that a guy who is projected to be good in the NFL (due in part to his play on the field, but moreso due to his physical traits and projectibles) also played well enough according to a site that consistently gets draft prospects wrong to an almost uncanny degree, then yes. That is an appropriate way to use this chart.

But it shouldn't CHANGE your opinion about any player that is or is not on the list.

Like, for example, people condemning Price for not being in the top 10 are ridiculous.

Likewise, people who see this list and upgrade Ragnow from a 2nd round prospect to a 1st round prospect because of this list (and only because of this list) are also ridiculous.

Take it for what it is. He played well in college. That has so little bearing on the NFL it's not even funny. The number of times the College Football Sack Leader or Rushing leader or Passing Leader in the last 10 years ends up being a star in the NFL can likely be counted on, at most, 2 hands. Probably just 1 hand.

College football and the NFL are, for all intents and purposes, completely different games. Success in one is not an accurate predictor for success in the other.

This didn't change my opinion about taking Ragnow in the 1st CJD. Lots of factors did. The fact he was the top Center in college
before his injury, then people were saying he wouldn't impress at his Pro Day, then he did and now we know he will be ready for
OTA's, has much longer arms than Price the other guy i really liked in this Draft for us.

Plus he did what he did in the SEC. I mean, i am not going to lie and say the chart is not a factor cause it is. Have to factor in
everything when evaluating a player. Ragnow is the best Center in the Draft for the Bengals without question now IMHO.

[sandwedge]

(04-05-2018, 03:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Luigs won the Remington trophy in 2007 and was drafted in the 4th round in 2009.
He was waived after just one season due to multiple hip injuries that limited him to just eight career NFL games. He retired after that season.
Leading into the draft, NFL.com scouting profile said that even in a deep center class, he was regarded by "many" as the top C prospect. He only had 31.25" arm length though.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jonathan-luigs?id=71373

Wow that seems just like not more than few years ago, where does time go...

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-05-2018, 04:10 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Wow that seems just like not more than few years ago, where does time go...

Yup, 2009. Vividly remember him running past Caldwell's fumble on a KO, when he could have recovered it himself, against Cleveland, that was recovered by Blake Costanzo.

Might be wrong on the details, but you can see it in the game highlights from 2009.

I think he would've been the guy to replace Cook after a couple of seasons, but the injury stopped him.

[grampahol]

"Also, you're absolutely right that a lot of players do well in college but flounder in the NFL. However, it's extremely rare for a player to play poorly in college then magically become a great NFL player. Doing well in college is most often a precedent for being a good professional"

You really have to consider that the only place pro football players come from are college football programs you're pretty much limited to college players.. It's not as if they go scouring Subway sandwich shops for janitors to become football players.. You don't really go shopping for a new car at Bed Bath and Beyond. You usually go where they sell cars.. College football programs sell football players.. There's really not much debate over this is there?
Some small colleges produce a few great players, but the cream usually rises to the top with the big college programs. 

[SunsetBengal]

Alright, that graphic in the OP is a bit misleading. Yes, those are the player season ratings by PFF, but they don't represent the PFF draft rankings. I saw them posted in another location, but am unable to copy/paste as it is protected and I'm not a subscriber.

Here they are..

1. Frank Ragnow Arkansas
2. Billy Price Ohio St.
3. Will Clapp LSU
4. Austin Corbett Nevada
5. James Daniels Iowa
6. Mason Cole Mich.
7. Bradley Bozeman Ala.
8. Brian Allen Mich. St.
9. Tejan Komora BYU
10. Scott Quessenberry UCLA

Now, if anyone is a subscriber and wants to substantiate this, feel free.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-08-2018, 12:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, that graphic in the OP is a bit misleading.  Yes, those are the player season ratings by PFF, but they don't represent the PFF draft rankings.  I saw them posted in another location, but am unable to copy/paste as it is protected and I'm not a subscriber.

Here they are..

1.  Frank Ragnow  Arkansas
2.  Billy Price  Ohio St.
3.  Will Clapp  LSU
4.  Austin Corbett  Nevada
5.  James Daniels  Iowa
6.  Mason Cole  Mich.
7.  Bradley Bozeman  Ala.
8.  Brian Allen  Mich. St.
9.  Tejan Komora  BYU
10.  Scott Quessenberry  UCLA

Now, if anyone is a subscriber and wants to substantiate this, feel free.

Thanks for this Sunset.

That does seem much more like it and just another factor verifying what i now believe that Ragnow is the best
Center in this Draft and Price is right there with him. Either one of these guys please. Daniels being below Corbett
surprised me honestly. What are his measurables i wonder?

[SunsetBengal]

(04-09-2018, 01:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for this Sunset.

That does seem much more like it and just another factor verifying what i now believe that Ragnow is the best
Center in this Draft and Price is right there with him. Either one of these guys please. Daniels being below Corbett
surprised me honestly. What are his measurables i wonder?

Here's his draft profile.  He's only played Tackle in college.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-corbett?id=32462018-0002-5598-32d0-cae9da7b0ed8

[shanebo]

(04-08-2018, 12:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, that graphic in the OP is a bit misleading.  Yes, those are the player season ratings by PFF, but they don't represent the PFF draft rankings.  I saw them posted in another location, but am unable to copy/paste as it is protected and I'm not a subscriber.

Here they are..

1.  Frank Ragnow  Arkansas
2.  Billy Price  Ohio St.
3.  Will Clapp  LSU
4.  Austin Corbett  Nevada
5.  James Daniels  Iowa
6.  Mason Cole  Mich.
7.  Bradley Bozeman  Ala.
8.  Brian Allen  Mich. St.
9.  Tejan Komora  BYU
10.  Scott Quessenberry  UCLA

Now, if anyone is a subscriber and wants to substantiate this, feel free.

Curious about the date of this ranking -- looks like an earlier list, say Jan or Feb.  Since then, most rankings have Daniels in the top 3 (or first overall).  Quessenberry is typically much higher, while Clapp is far lower.  

[*Go Cards*]

All Hail Ragnow !

Or whoever is left in second round for us.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-09-2018, 02:07 PM)shanebo Wrote: Curious about the date of this ranking -- looks like an earlier list, say Jan or Feb.  Since then, most rankings have Daniels in the top 3 (or first overall).  Quessenberry is typically much higher, while Clapp is far lower.  

I really can't answer that, as I said, I'm not a subscriber.  The person who shared this list with me is a subscriber.

However, I do agree with you, I was unimpressed with what Will Clapp's draft profile had to say about him.  In fact NFL.com has him as a 6th-7th round prospect.