The QB position

[*PhilHos*]

(05-10-2018, 06:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this thread shows how defensive some folks can get. Go back and read the OP; he gives Andy credit. It went sideways when I challenged someone that said "back up QB doesn't matter,if you lose your starter you are done". I made the mistake of suggesting we could win without Andy and did come quite close (closer than ever). That morphed quickly into "oh no you didn't just disrespect Andy".

(05-11-2018, 03:19 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: And unfortunately I got suckered in even though i kept saying I wouldn't do it......just goes to show you the Dalton army is still as strong as ever here. 

bfine and CB:


philhos:

[BengalChris]

(05-10-2018, 06:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this thread shows how defensive some folks can get. Go back and read the OP; he gives Andy credit. It went sideways when I challenged someone that said "back up QB doesn't matter,if you lose your starter you are done". I made the mistake of suggesting we could win without Andy and did come quite close (closer than ever). That morphed quickly into "oh no you didn't just disrespect Andy".

(05-11-2018, 03:19 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: And unfortunately I got suckered in even though i kept saying I wouldn't do it......just goes to show you the Dalton army is still as strong as ever here. 

I'll end with this. If you are a fan of Dalton then there is no reason why you shouldn't be a fan of Marvin Lewis. Both are average at at their respective positions which is why we end up in the overall scheme of things just an average up and down team that can't get the job done when it counts the most and when you need your coach and QB to step it up.

There is a reason why a handful of teams are always making a run for the Lombardi....it's because they either have a rock solid system in place or they have a very good QB that hides the teams weaknesses. We have neither.

Just blame Mike Brown, that's what I do. Marvin Lewis' unprecedented tenure without actually winning anything is all on Mike Brown. Marvin Lewis' playoff record as head coach is 0-7, worst in NFL history.

Having a QB with an 0-4 playoff record (tied for worse in NFL history in case anyone cared) who put up 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in those four games is absolutely dismal by any standards at all.

It all comes down to what is acceptable Mike Brown.

Could you imagine NE's Robert Kraft accepting these two guys? Even for two seasons? Laughable!

Next we'll hear how Dalton has gone most of his career with no supporting cast (which is a complete and total lie, of course). Then there will be excuse after excuse and just for good measure, some more excuses.

All I have to say about that is you don't hear that kind of stuff from Bill Belicheck or Robert Kraft or Tom Brady.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2018, 11:09 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Could you imagine NE's Robert Kraft accepting these two guys? Even for two seasons? Laughable!

Kraft kept QB Drew Bledsoe even those his numbers through his first 4 postseason games (830 passing yards, 49.1 rating) were worse than Dalton's (873 yds, 57.8 rating)

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-10-2018, 11:05 AM)cooper Wrote: no reason that Dalton cant play at a high level the next 5 -7 years..his line has stunk the past few years......stick..brady, ben aaron,etc/....... behind the very same line..they would have looked as bad or worse

maybe because the only time he's played at a high level was in 2015 for a whopping 8 games. ..

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2018, 12:28 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: maybe because the only time he's played at a high level was in 2015 for a whopping 8 games. ..

So a 315 yard game with a 99.8 passer rating is not a "high level"?

:troll:



BTW since Dalton entered the league in 2011 only 4 active QBs have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton's 14, and only 4 of those 14 games were in 2015.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-11-2018, 11:09 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Just blame Mike Brown, that's what I do. Marvin Lewis' unprecedented tenure without actually winning anything is all on Mike Brown. Marvin Lewis' playoff record as head coach is 0-7, worst in NFL history.

Having a QB with an 0-4 playoff record (tied for worse in NFL history in case anyone cared) who put up 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in those four games is absolutely dismal by any standards at all.

It all comes down to what is acceptable Mike Brown.

Could you imagine NE's Robert Kraft accepting these two guys? Even for two seasons? Laughable!

Next we'll hear how Dalton has gone most of his career with no supporting cast (which is a complete and total lie, of course). Then there will be excuse after excuse and just for good measure, some more excuses.

All I have to say about that is you don't hear that kind of stuff from Bill Belicheck or Robert Kraft or Tom Brady.

I'll never understand the logic of blaming Marvin for 0-7, but also holding Dalton accountable for 0-4. If you think we're losing because Marv is doing something wrong, wouldn't that also affect Dalton? 

Aren't our other QB's 0-3 with a 59.6 rating overall? Marv can't set any QB up to play well. He also can't coach the rest of the team to play well.

I saved this old post and feel it fits pretty well here:

Quote:I get what you're saying and if we don't want to use Brady, I think there might be another example or 1,378 of a team overcoming a turnover or 2 in the playoffs. Maybe even more turnovers than that. Many teams have won games with a dominant rushing attack (150-200+ yards) or maybe forcing multiple turnovers themselves.


Pig Ben has won playoff games with these performances:

  9/21 (42.9%) 123 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT (22.6 rating)
10/19 (52.6%) 133 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT (35.5 rating)
17/30 (56.7%) 181 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT (57.8 rating)
20/31 (64.5%) 224 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT (72.5 rating)

These are Ben's 4 worst playoff games, by passer rating. Yet his team went 4-0 in these games. Compare these stats to Dalton... or Merv's non-Dalton playoff QB's:

Ben: 56/101 (55.4%) - 165.3 yards per game - 1 TD to 7 INTs (50.0 rating) --- team went 4-0
Andy: 88/158 (55.7%) - 218.3 yards per game - 1 TD to 6 INTs (57.8 rating) --- team went 0-4 <---Notice the difference in attempts vs Ben
Non-Andy: 61/117 (52.1%) - 185.0 yards per game - 3 TDs to 4 INTs (59.6 rating) --- team went 0-3 <--- Still too many attempts

Now how did Ben go 4-0 in these games when he played even worse than our guys? Here's how:

The Steelers rushed for an average of 178 yards in these games, on 4.6 YPC. They limited opponents to 15.5 points per game, forcing 5 turnovers in 4 games.
The Bengals rushed for an average of 103.4 yards in these games, on 4.9 YPC. They limited opponents to to 25.1 points per game, forcing 4 turnovers in 7 games.

When our QB's struggle (they always do), we respond by putting more on their plate. When Ben has struggled, the Steelers respond by pounding the football upwards of 35-40+ times per game. They play sound defense, we don't. They force turnovers. We don't.

Marvin can't get anyone to play well in the playoffs. Poor Andy is just a cog in a wheel that's been turning for 15 years.

(05-11-2018, 12:28 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: maybe because the only time he's played at a high level was in 2015 for a whopping 8 games. ..

When did Dalton's 2015 season get shortened to 8 games?

He played 12 full games that year, with only 2 games with a rating under 95.6. 

[Okeana]

I am going to try to be positive on Dalton this year, but I will always consider him an average quarterback at best. Fact is we had years where our team was amazingly stacked with talent and simply could not translate that to post season success because of several factors but mainly Dalton. I will say that Dalton looks more muscular this year so maybe that's a positive. This season could turn out to be amazing if Ross has a breakout and Mixon flourishes behind a newly redesigned line. People win superbowls all the time behind average quarterbacks we just need the other stars to step up and some draft choices to pan out.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-11-2018, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So a 315 yard game with a 99.8 passer rating is not a "high level"?

Or a 335 yard game with a 95.9 passer rating? That's also not a "high level"?

12 full games. Only 2 were under 95 rating (both were in the 60s). 12-2=8?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-11-2018, 01:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'll never understand the logic of blaming Marvin for 0-7, but also holding Dalton accountable for 0-4. If you think we're losing because Marv is doing something wrong, wouldn't that also affect Dalton? 

Aren't our other QB's 0-3 with a 59.6 rating overall? Marv can't set any QB up to play well. He also can't coach the rest of the team to play well.

I saved this old post and feel it fits pretty well here:


Marvin can't get anyone to play well in the playoffs. Poor Andy is just a cog in a wheel that's been turning for 15 years.


When did Dalton's 2015 season get shortened to 8 games?

He played 12 full games that year, with only 1 game with a rating under 95.6. 

Nope, and those other 3 losses are on Dalton too.....along with all of the seasons we didn't even make the playoffs.  Merv only affects the rest of the team, not the quarterback.  The quarterback affects the whole organization and the Ben-gals too......er something like that.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-11-2018, 01:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'll never understand the logic of blaming Marvin for 0-7, but also holding Dalton accountable for 0-4. If you think we're losing because Marv is doing something wrong, wouldn't that also affect Dalton? 

Aren't our other QB's 0-3 with a 59.6 rating overall? Marv can't set any QB up to play well. He also can't coach the rest of the team to play well.

I saved this old post and feel it fits pretty well here:


Marvin can't get anyone to play well in the playoffs. Poor Andy is just a cog in a wheel that's been turning for 15 years.


When did Dalton's 2015 season get shortened to 8 games?

He played 12 full games that year, with only 1 game with a rating under 95.6. 

Also, take out Cedric Benson's performance in 09....then look at those YPC.....I'd almost bet dollars to donuts it drops a bit.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-11-2018, 01:36 PM)Okeana Wrote: I am going to try to be positive on Dalton this year, but I will always consider him an average quarterback at best.  Fact is we had years where our team was amazingly stacked with talent and simply could not translate that to post season success because of several factors but mainly Dalton.  I will say that Dalton looks more muscular this year so maybe that's a positive.  This season could turn out to be amazing if Ross has a breakout and Mixon flourishes behind a newly redesigned line.  People win superbowls all the time behind average quarterbacks we just need the other stars to step up and some draft choices to pan out.

.....and a coaching staff that doesn't wilt under pressure.  Hoping the new changes are the trick.....

[Shake n Blake]

(05-11-2018, 02:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Nope, and those other 3 losses are on Dalton too.....along with all of the seasons we didn't even make the playoffs.  Merv only affects the rest of the team, not the quarterback.  The quarterback affects the whole organization and the Ben-gals too......er something like that.

Yep. Something like that.  :andy:

(05-11-2018, 02:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: Also, take out Cedric Benson's performance in 09....then look at those YPC.....I'd almost bet dollars to donuts it drops a bit.

Just looking at Dalton's playoff games:

- 81 carries for 379 yards (4.7 YPC) and 2 TDs
- Dalton accounted for 16 attempts (19.8%) for 92 yards (24.3%). Dalton accounted for 1/4th of our rush yards. Pathetic.
- Aside from Dalton, we've averaged a paltry 71.8 rush yards (4.4 YPC).
- For comparison, his opponent's RBs averaged 158.8 rush yards (4.9 YPC) and the QB's only accounted for 3.2% of the rush yards.

Our main ball carriers were:

Benson: 7 carries for 14 yards and 1 TD.
Law Firm: 11 carries for 63 yards (29 yard long)
Gio: 12 carries for 45 yards (+ critical fumble)
Hill: 13 carries for 47 yards and 1 TD

The run game has been every bit as bad as Dalton. Partly from not sticking with it. Partly because our top guys haven't shown up. Even Law Firm's performance was nothing to write home about. Long carry aside, he averaged 3.4 YPC. That's not steady. Benson, Gio and Hill were poop.

[*bfine32*]

(05-11-2018, 02:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Nope, and those other 3 losses are on Dalton too.....along with all of the seasons we didn't even make the playoffs.  Merv only affects the rest of the team, not the quarterback.  The quarterback affects the whole organization and the Ben-gals too......er something like that.

I suppose I'm just one of those folks that puts the onus more on the highly paid athlete; as to who they perform on game day than I do the dude wearing the headset on the sidelines. And apparently I am not alone as the highest NFL Coach makes around 7.5 MIL. Hell if he and Dre Kirkpatrick went to dinner Dre would be expected to pay as he makes about 3 MIL more a year

[sandwedge]

(05-11-2018, 03:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. Something like that.  :andy:


Just looking at Dalton's playoff games:

- 81 carries for 379 yards (4.7 YPC) and 2 TDs
- Dalton accounted for 16 attempts (19.8%) for 92 yards (24.3%). Dalton accounted for 1/4th of our rush yards. Pathetic.
- Aside from Dalton, we've averaged a paltry 71.8 rush yards (4.4 YPC).
- For comparison, his opponent's RBs averaged 158.8 rush yards (4.9 YPC) and the QB's only accounted for 3.2% of the rush yards.

Our main ball carriers were:

Benson: 7 carries for 14 yards and 1 TD.
Law Firm: 11 carries for 63 yards (29 yard long)
Gio: 12 carries for 45 yards (+ critical fumble)
Hill: 13 carries for 47 yards and 1 TD

The run game has been every bit as bad as Dalton. Partly from not sticking with it. Partly because our top guys haven't shown up. Even Law Firm's performance was nothing to write home about. Long carry aside, he averaged 3.4 YPC. That's not steady. Benson, Gio and Hill were poop.

This wins!!! 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-11-2018, 03:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose I'm just one of those folks that puts the onus more on the highly paid athlete; as to who they perform on game day than I do the dude wearing the headset on the sidelines. And apparently I am not alone as the highest NFL Coach makes around 7.5 MIL. Hell if he and Dre Kirkpatrick went to dinner Dre would be expected to pay as he makes about 3 MIL more a year

Yet every year we see evidence that coaching and systems have major impacts.

Last year it was Pederson with Philly, McVay with St Louis LA and Jax with Marrone.

[sandwedge]

(05-11-2018, 04:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yet every year we see evidence that coaching and systems have major impacts.

Last year it was Pederson with Philly, McVay with St Louis LA and Jax with Marrone.

I see those 3 coaches, as "outside of the box" coaches too.... Makes you think, 3 yds and a cloud of dust is a thing of the past....

[muskiesfan]

I don't know why I'll bother again, but people always talk about these "stacked" teams and elite talent Dalton is always surrounded by. I just don't see it that way. Obviously he's always had AJ Green, but the rest of the supporting cast has not been what I would call "stacked" or "elite".

WRs
AJ Green
Jerome Simpson
Andre Caldwell
Brandon Tate
Jordan Shipley
Andrew Hawkins
Marvin Jones
Mohamed Sanu
Ryan Whalen
Tyrone Goard
Cobi Hamilton
Taveon Rogers
Roy Roundtree
Dane Sanzenbacher
Jasper Collins
Jeremy Johnson
Greg Little
Denarius Moore
Alex Neutz
Tevin Reese
Eric Ward
James Wright
Mario Alford
Michael Bennett
Junior Collins
Jake Kumerow
Desmond Lawrence
Ontario McCalebb
Tyler Boyd
Cody Core
Alex Erickson
Antwane Grant
Brandon LaFell
Alonzo Russell
Rashaun Simonize
Chris Brown
Monty Madaris
Josh Malone
John Ross
Kermit Whitfield

TEs
Jermaine Gresham
Colin Cochart
Donald Lee
Orsen Charles
Kevin Brock
Tyler Eifert
Alex Smith
Jake Murphy
Ryan Hewitt
Tyler Kroft
Matt Lengel
John Peters
CJ Uzomah
Cethan Carter
Scott Orndorff
Mason Schreck

RBs
Cedric Benson
Brian Leonard
Cedric Peerman
Chris Pressley
Bernard Scott
John Conner
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Boom Herron
Giovani Bernard
Jourdan Brooks
Aaron Brown
Rex Burkhead
Rodney Stewart
Jeremy Hill
Jeff Scott
James Wilder
Bronson Hill
Mark Weisman
Tra Carson
Dy'Shawn Mobley
Darrin Laufasa
Joe Mixon
Jarveon Williams

Besides AJ Green and Tyler "I've played in 49% of the games since I cam in the League" Eifert are considered elite talent? Either now or on their new teams. We've had/have some really good role players. We've had/have good talent. To constantly call us "stacked" or "elite" at the skill positions is ridiculous.

Bengals fans love to overvalue and over-hype offensive skill position players and back up QBs while finding every way they can to tear down their starting QB.

[CornerBlitz]

The excuses for Dalton are hilarious. They get more and more outlandish each season. At this point nobody can ever blame anything on Dalton because it is always someone else's fault. Which is why there is no point to even having a discussion about him.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-11-2018, 03:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose I'm just one of those folks that puts the onus more on the highly paid athlete; as to who they perform on game day than I do the dude wearing the headset on the sidelines. And apparently I am not alone as the highest NFL Coach makes around 7.5 MIL. Hell if he and Dre Kirkpatrick went to dinner Dre would be expected to pay as he makes about 3 MIL more a year

So the determining factor in deciding the person who has the biggest impact on the team is by salary? Seriously?

By this logic, Stephen Gilmore has more of an impact on the Patriots than Bill Belichick. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-11-2018, 05:04 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: The excuses for Dalton are hilarious. They get more and more outlandish each season.  At this point nobody can ever blame anything on Dalton because it is always someone else's fault.  Which is why there is no point to even having a discussion about him.

Sorry CB, the Dalton hate is hilarious, especially when all these so called Dalton Army dudes bring up stats that
support the claim that he has been one of the better QB's in the league since coming into it. Everyone from our
HC to our entire team has failed in the Playoffs so it is not just Dalton's fault.

He has played bad but so has everyone else except for Burfict in the Steelers game pretty much.

Look at the run game stats that Shake shown, we have been absolutely terrible running the ball in Playoff games
and a good running game is a QB's best friend.

Dalton has been our best runner for heck sake. Dalton is not the problem.

A better run blocking O-line under Pollack can help take some pressure off of Dalton. We have a good running
attack in a Playoff game and Dalton throws the game away and i will be right with you. Doubt it happens tho, if
he has a good running game he should thrive as should the entire team.