Tier 3 QB

[Shake n Blake]

(08-27-2018, 01:12 AM)Passepartout Wrote: Yeah but unless he gets over the playoff hump with the coach, then he will not be elite. Meaning that of Dalton.

No one said anything about elite, but I've always found it curious that folks think Dalton should somehow be immune to the Marvin affect.

The whole team wets the bed at the mere mention of playoffs, but Dalton - and Dalton ALONE - should somehow also shoulder the lion's share of the blame.

No other players. How can they be expected to perform under a choking coach? But Dalton though? He should rise above the Marvin stink. Makes no sense, but maybe that's just me. Seems more like an easy way for people to hate on Marv and Dalton at the same time. Just pretend the QB isn't affected by the HC. I wonder if Drew Brees would agree with that notion? Or Jared Goff?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-24-2018, 05:35 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: No one is denying this.

However the point was that we don't know all of the factors in any given play and when Dalton misses his connection to Green, it isn't impossible to blame the miss on Green. 

I used the words "for all we know" to clarify that we can't be sure, but their might be times where Green could be holding Dalton back.  Instead of Dalton throwing to someone else, he force feeds to Green.   If he doesn't throw to Green, then he is slammed for not going to his playmaker, if he does throw to Green and doesn't connect then he is blamed for forcing the ball.

Hell there are times that when Green gets the ball he wasn't the best option.  Another WR could have gained more yardage or even a TD. 

None of these points were addressed instead I was met with Green is the Greatest.  The only one that has understood is Sunset.

I understand your point.....and even AJ himself said he had a bad season last year by his own standards.  It was mentioned several times yesterday, and he alluded to it during his interview.

[YsCascadia]

(08-27-2018, 12:16 PM)Wyche Wrote: I understand your point.....and even AJ himself said he had a bad season last year by his own standards.  It was mentioned several times yesterday, and he alluded to it during his interview.

Well that is another to add.

AJ is a class act and I agreed with his assessment.  He does so great and can be so dominant that it is hard to say anything negative about him without sounding like you are ungrateful for what he does.

As far as Dalton, I genuinely believe that AJ isn't blowing smoke by saying that he likes Dalton as his QB.

If you can find it, I might look for it as well, but try to find an interview in which AJ was talking about the draft process and he said that Gruden asked him out of all of the draftable QBs, which one would he want throwing him the ball.  AJ told him the kid out of TCU.  Which I think is the main reason Dalton is here.

[YsCascadia]

This is from their rookie season. Very telling with Green making a couple mistakes and Dalton providing leadership to the young WR.

This goes without saying, that Dalton himself was a young QB acting like a veteran in this game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCOuBfrdoaI

[HuDey]

(08-25-2018, 01:46 AM)YsCascadia Wrote: Finally an argument.

OK, I see why you would blame Dalton and not Green. 

So let me put it this way.  How many times did Dalton throw to Green in the Buffalo game in which Green had an uncontested ball bounce off of his hands and then into the hands of the DB?  Is that a Dalton problem or a Green problem?  The INT goes against Dalton, which in turn makes his numbers look worse than they are.

I did mention the Arizona game.  The pass to Green was catchable.  He was up against a number 2 CB in single coverage.  Dalton (or the coaches) put his trust in his top WR to make the play.  Green doesn't.  The loss is on the whole team and while Green is also not credited with a catch, TD and the yards to go with it, Dalton is the one that is scrutinized and doesn't get the completion, TD and yards, he also gets an attempt.  Which a higher attempt / completion affects the overall rating of the QB.  Green may get dinged for a dropped pass, but that is it, and dropped passes aren't official NFL stats.  So is that not Green holding Dalton back?  Dalton did what he was supposed to do, Green did not.

It seems that when Green doesn't make a catch, people will say, Oh well, "9 out of 10 he makes that catch" and give him the benefit of doubt.  Even though it isn't 9 out of 10, I don't know what the number is, but he doesn't catch 90% of catchable passes.  Yet if Dalton doesn't get a completion then we say that "He needs to throw the ball better", and we look at completion % and assume that every miss was on him.  We don't give Dalton the same benefit, even though he has proven to be very accurate and is able to make throws in tight windows and coverage.  It seems that we say that Green is successful in spite of Dalton.  I find it odd.

That is why I don't bash Dalton as much as the narrative does.  I don't claim him to be worse than a QB that played only 7 games last year.  I am also willing to be critical of every player, including Green, and try to see if maybe instead of Green being such a huge advantage, to sometimes being a liability.  Again if Green catches that ball in Arizona and we win the game, 13-3 and the 2nd seed.  Dalton might have been recovered enough to play in the postseason that year.

I think basically we are in agreement that there are instances in which AJ Green blows plays. That is every receiver and every player in the league as well. Quarterbacks take most of the criticism and always have, that is just the nature of the position and they are compensated very well for it. I have to disagree on the Arizona game. You can pin that on AJ for not making that play if you want, but you could also point to Dalton’s fumble handing Arizona the ball on the ten yard line and leading to a field goal. Maybe they win the game if that doesn’t happen and maybe Dalton doesn’t get injured in the first place if he doesn’t throw the interception against Pittsburgh. Then we could talk about what he actually did in the postseason instead of speculating about what he would have done.

[CornerBlitz]

I sure do wish I played QB under Marvin. According to some, i can't be blamed for not playing well because Marvin is my coach. I'd be the worst QB in NFL playoff history but as long as Marvin is my coach all blame goes to Marvin.

Pretty ridiculous logic.

[fredtoast]

(08-28-2018, 11:30 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I sure do wish I played QB under Marvin.  According to some, i can't be blamed for not playing well because Marvin is my coach. I'd be the worst QB in NFL playoff history but as long as Marvin is my coach all blame goes to Marvin.

Pretty ridiculous logic.

Wish i was a bengal other than andy dalton.  Everyone can play like crap but dalton get blamed for everything.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-28-2018, 11:30 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I sure do wish I played QB under Marvin.  According to some, i can't be blamed for not playing well because Marvin is my coach. I'd be the worst QB in NFL playoff history but as long as Marvin is my coach all blame goes to Marvin.

Pretty ridiculous logic.

It is. Which is probably why no one actually says that all the blame goes to Marvin. Just that he should be getting the brunt of it. 

[Shake n Blake]

(08-28-2018, 12:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It is. Which is probably why no one actually says that all the blame goes to Marvin. Just that he should be getting the brunt of it. 

Under Merv in the playoffs:

QB plays like crap (4 different ones)
Only 1 RB with a 100 yard game
Star WR's disappear (Chad, Green, Housh)
O-line gives up hella sacks

D-line can't get pressure
Can't force turnovers
Can't stop the pass
Can't stop the run

Yet some want to look at all this and say: "That one QB should be immune to the Marvin effect. Everyone else is off the hook though."

It makes zero sense. The HC is more responsible than anyone for setting players up with a scheme and game plan to be successful in the playoffs. Marvin has consistently failed to do so for 16 (?) years now. For that reason, I can't help but feel Andy (and everyone else) has been a victim of circumstance to a large degree.

I will never fully judge Andy (or any player) for playoff failures as long as Marvin Lewis is the coach of this team. We hire a new guy and the results are the same? Sure. Ship Andy's ass somewhere else. I have a strong feeling though (based on a mountain of evidence) that Merv is the primary problem with regards to failure in the bright lights. This was a discussion well before Dalton or any of these new guys were even around.

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 09:52 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: This is from their rookie season.  Very telling with Green making a couple mistakes and Dalton providing leadership to the young WR.  

This goes without saying, that Dalton himself was a young QB acting like a veteran in this game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCOuBfrdoaI

Well, if what you and others are saying is true you are crushing our dreams.

You and others are saying an elite WR cannot win a Superbowl and provide examples. Well it appears those examples show that an elite QB is required. Given/Flacco, are the exceptions (and they played great in the years they won).

Outside of that we're talking:

Big Ben
Eli
Peyton
Brady
Russel Wilson
A-a-Rod
Brees

over the last decade or so.

So it's sad because we do have an elite WR; however, we do not have an elite QB. Here's to hoping an elite WR can make a difference this year

[CornerBlitz]

Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad AD plays some of you will never fault him. It's as simple as that.

[YsCascadia]

(08-28-2018, 07:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well, if what you and others are saying is true you are crushing our dreams.

You and others are saying an elite WR cannot win a Superbowl and provide examples. Well it appears those examples show that an elite QB is required. Given/Flacco, are the exceptions (and they played great in the years they won).

Outside of that we're talking:

Big Ben
Eli
Peyton
Brady
Russel Wilson
A-a-Rod
Brees

over the last decade or so.

So it's sad because we do have an elite WR; however, we do not have an elite QB. Here's to hoping an elite WR can make a difference this year

So you are on the Dalton is garbage train BFine?

Thanks for proving our point.

Even if the Bengals go to and win the SB, it will not be because of Dalton, but instead because of his elite WR. 

1 and done in the Playoffs - Dalton's fault.  SB win- Great team sans QB.

[YsCascadia]

(08-29-2018, 01:38 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad AD plays some of you will never fault him. It's as simple as that.

This is clearly strawman.

We do find fault in Dalton.  The issue is when people are piling on him unjustly.

They don't criticize other players as much as they do Dalton.

I even posted a video that shows Green having to be told a play over and over, being on the wrong side of the field and not running the route that Dalton told him to run.

I am sure the response to that video will be "yeah, well rookie, duh". 

Those same fans willing to give Green leeway for being a rookie will still hold Dalton accountable for his 1st playoff game.

It isn't that you can't fault Dalton, it is that you should be willing to fault Green as well, but you don't.  It's as simple as that.

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2018, 01:38 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad AD plays some of you will never fault him. It's as simple as that.

"Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad everyone else plays some of you will never fault them because it is all Dalton's fault. It's as simple as that."



See. I can play the pretend strawman game also.

[*bfine32*]

(08-29-2018, 07:47 AM)YsCascadia Wrote: So you are on the Dalton is garbage train BFine?

Thanks for proving our point.

Even if the Bengals go to and win the SB, it will not be because of Dalton, but instead because of his elite WR. 

1 and done in the Playoffs - Dalton's fault.  SB win- Great team sans QB.

Nope, never said Andy is garbage. He is what he is, a mediocre starter that can lead us to the promised land if everything lines up.

but I will say without hesitation that AJ is a hell of a lot closer to being elite than Andy.

[*bfine32*]

(08-28-2018, 11:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Wish i was a bengal other than andy dalton.  Everyone can play like crap but dalton get blamed for everything.

No doubt. Remember last year how everyone dogged Andy for Bodine's and Ced's poor play?

[Shake n Blake]

(08-29-2018, 01:38 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad AD plays some of you will never fault him. It's as simple as that.

As long as Marvin is here, yes I will pin most of the blame on him. If you think a coach has no affect on players, why not just keep Marvin forever?

It's either Marvin affects all players or he he has no affect at all. It can't be "he affects some players, but not Andy Dalton". That's the point that some like to dance around.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2018, 01:38 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Well no point in having this discussion then because regardless of how bad AD plays some of you will never fault him. It's as simple as that.

You mean there's no point in having this discussion when some people can't see reality and/or make shit up.

[YsCascadia]

(08-29-2018, 12:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, never said Andy is garbage. He is what he is, a mediocre starter that can lead us to the promised land if everything lines up.

but I will say without hesitation that AJ is a hell of a lot closer to being elite than Andy.

Now this is weird as I would say the same thing about AJ and Dalton.

However I disagree, due that I think Dalton could get us to the promise land without AJ.  However I don't think AJ can get us to the promise land with Josh McCown or Blaine Gabbert or Jake Locker, ect.

As far as everything lining up... that is every QB.  Do you think Foles would be Superbowl MVP if he was still with the Rams?  Or if Wentz doesn't get injured?

Hell even the "elites" (Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Brady), can't win if everything doesn't line up.  Rivers doesn't even have a SB appearance.  Brees and Rodgers only have 1 each.  Brady is the outlier and that could be due to the system and if Brady were with say, the Lions, would have been out of the league in a few years after his draft.

As I asked before, in the playoff game against the Colts, where was our dominant defense in stopping a Colts team that had back ups along the OLine?

They were no where, and many (you might be included) would point at the coach for their failure in that game.  Yet Dalton is mediocre because... reasons.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-24-2018, 06:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Biggest talk in the NFL today is the just released QB tier ratings by ESPN, The list is compiled by 10 general managers, five head coaches, 10 coordinators, 10 senior personnel executives, five QB coaches and 10 others with job titles ranging from assistant coach to salary-cap manager to analytics director.

Our boy Andy comes in at #22, but hey; that's 10 spots higher than the QB we parted ways with.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/91gkze/espns_2018_nfl_qb_tiers_rankings/

Tier 1:

T1. Aaron Rodgers
T1. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger

Tier 2:

5. Matt Ryan
6. Russell Wilson
7. Matthew Stafford
8. Philip Rivers
9. Carson Wentz
10. Andrew Luck
11. Cam Newton
12. Derek Carr
13. Jimmy Garoppolo
14. Deshaun Watson

Tier 3:

T15. Kirk Cousins
T15. Alex Smith
T17. Eli Manning
T17. Dak Prescott
19. Jared Goff
20. Jameis Winston
21. Marcus Mariota
22. Andy Dalton
T23. Joe Flacco
T23. Case Keenum
25. Tyrod Taylor
26. Blake Bortles
27. Ryan Tannehill
28. Sam Bradford

Tier 4:

29. Mitchell Trubisky
30. Josh McCown
31. Patrick Mahomes
32. AJ McCarron

I know it's only 1 game and things will definitely change by Week 17, but I still find it funny (compared to the list in the OP) that the top 10 QBs in the league after week 1 (ranked by QB rating) are:
1 - Ryan Fitzpatrick
2 - Aaron Rodgers
3 - Drew Brees
4 - Patrick Mahomes
5 - Joe Flacco
6 - Alex Smith
7 - Sam Darnold
8 - Andy Dalton
9 - Phillip Rivers
10 - Tom Brad

I'd like to also point out Jimmy Garoppolo's stat line: 
15 comp 33 attempts 45.5% comp% 261 yards 1 TD 3 INT 45.1 QB rating.