Tier 3 QB

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-25-2018, 05:37 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Luck stays tier 2 after not taking a single snap?

Speaking specifically about Dalton.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-25-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No rookie QB is. 

Mahommes essentially is though......

[bengalguy71]

(07-26-2018, 09:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Umm...his peers? GMs around the league? Everyone else who voted on these rankings?

My money says with his security, he couldn't care less what any of those yahoos think.  He'll retire a Bengal.  

[fredtoast]

Wentz, Preskott, Goff, and Watson are all good looking QBs but they are also just "one year wonders" at this time.  Remember when RG3 finished 3rd in the league in passer rating as a rookie? Remember when Josh Freeman was 6th his second year?  Remember when Brian Griese led the league in second season? 


I have nothing against any of these current young guys, but I have to see them do it longer before I rank them among the best in the league.

[fredtoast]

Kirk Cousins and Alex Smith both have a better argument to be 2nd tier than Dalton.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-26-2018, 03:03 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: My money says with his security, he couldn't care less what any of those yahoos think.  He'll retire a Bengal.  

I think he has more competitive drive than you’re giving him credit for. When he was booed at a softball game he worked on his game like never before and had the best season of his career. He’s won at every level he’s played at his entire life, I guarantee he cares.

[BengalChris]

(07-24-2018, 06:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Biggest talk in the NFL today is the just released QB tier ratings by ESPN, The list is compiled by 10 general managers, five head coaches, 10 coordinators, 10 senior personnel executives, five QB coaches and 10 others with job titles ranging from assistant coach to salary-cap manager to analytics director.

Our boy Andy comes in at #22, but hey; that's 10 spots higher than the QB we parted ways with.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/91gkze/espns_2018_nfl_qb_tiers_rankings/

Tier 1:

T1. Aaron Rodgers
T1. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger

Tier 2:

5. Matt Ryan
6. Russell Wilson
7. Matthew Stafford
8. Philip Rivers
9. Carson Wentz
10. Andrew Luck
11. Cam Newton
12. Derek Carr
13. Jimmy Garoppolo
14. Deshaun Watson

Tier 3:

T15. Kirk Cousins
T15. Alex Smith
T17. Eli Manning
T17. Dak Prescott
19. Jared Goff
20. Jameis Winston
21. Marcus Mariota
22. Andy Dalton
T23. Joe Flacco
T23. Case Keenum
25. Tyrod Taylor
26. Blake Bortles
27. Ryan Tannehill
28. Sam Bradford

Tier 4:

29. Mitchell Trubisky
30. Josh McCown
31. Patrick Mahomes
32. AJ McCarron

The Dalton grade isn't too low considering what he's accomplished the last two years, which isn't much. All of their tier 2 QBs have out played Dalton, with the exception of Luck. But dropping down Luck doesn't move Dalton up. It would be hard to move Dalton over Goff, Smith, Cousins, Manning and Prescott.

[bengalguy71]

(07-26-2018, 08:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think he has more competitive drive than you’re giving him credit for. When he was booed at a softball game he worked on his game like never before and had the best season of his career. He’s won at every level he’s played at his entire life, I guarantee he cares.

Ignorant fans booing him for football, at a softball game!  lol

And what did he do?  Hit 2 homeruns, one almost out of the baseball stadium!!!

It's a job for these guys NC.  It's their 9-5! Yes, he wants to win and do well, but being a brother, I know his priorities and football isn't as high as most fans think it is.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-26-2018, 08:59 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Ignorant fans booing him for football, at a softball game!  lol

And what did he do?  Hit 2 homeruns, one almost out of the baseball stadium!!!

It's a job for these guys NC.  It's their 9-5! Yes, he wants to win and do well, but being a brother, I know his priorities and football isn't as high as most fans think it is.

That’s a problem then.

[bengalguy71]

(07-26-2018, 10:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s a problem then.

Not for him.  Only for folks that live and die NFL football! 

[Shake n Blake]

(07-24-2018, 08:36 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Tier 2 is questionable imo

Luck, Watson and Wentz  all coming back from injury. Watson and Wentz both still have much to prove.

Speaking of much to prove, Jimmy G in tier 2?

Remember, these are the guys that allowed Jimmy to slip to the 62nd overall pick. 

Now they're ranking him the 13th best QB in the world based on 5 games. 

(07-25-2018, 12:23 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No way Dalton is better than Cam as far as pure skill goes.

"Pure skill" has failed to lead Cam to having better seasons than Dalton over the last 2 years.

I guess Dalton's superior o-line has helped him outplay Cam. 

(07-26-2018, 07:01 AM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Dalton is the Rodney Dangerfield of the NFL.

Can you think of any other QB's who fit this criteria?

- 7+ seasons
- Winning record
- 5+ playoff appearances
- 3 Pro Bowls
- Top 20 in all-time passer rating 
- Hated by own fans and most media

I think that list begins and ends with Dalton. Narratives are a powerful thing.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Bad rankings are bad...


TOO HIGH:

-Andrew Luck has a career sub-60% completion, the exact same YPA as Dalton (7.2), and 87.3 QB Rating, a losing record outside of his weak division, missed the ENTIRE 2017 season with a shoulder injury, and has missed 26 of his last 48 games. He is just a lot of hype and promise.

-Ben Roethlisberger has no business being Tier 1. I would buy Tier 2. In 14 years, he has thrown for 30 TDs twice, never more than 32. He has 1 career 4,500 yard season, and only 5/14 seasons has he reached 4,000 yards. Putting him and his career 94 QB Rating (only 2 seasons with 100+ QB Rating, 0 with 105+ QB Rating) in the same category with Brady (6 & 4), Rogers (7 & 3), and Brees (7 & 2) is a joke. Roethlisberger also has only played 16 games in a season 3 times in 14 years.

-Small quibble, but I would remove the T-1 from Rodgers and Brady and go Brady 1, Rodgers 2. Rodgers is no Brady in the postseason.. (9-7 record for Rodgers, 27-10 record for Brady).

-QB Record isn't everything, but Matthew Stafford is a losing QB who is just king of the garbage time. Matthew Stafford could be my #7 QB if games were changed to only ever consist of the 4th quarter. Lol

-Cam Newton is the single most overrated QB in the NFL today, saving Luck from that title. One of these QB gets rated 10th, the other 22nd (Dalton probably belongs 12-13).
Newton: 58.5% Completion, 25,074yds, 7.3 YPA, 158 TD/94 INT, 85.3 QB Rating
Dalton: 62.3% Competion, 25,534yds, 7.2 YPA, 167 TD/93 INT, 88.7 QB Rating

-Garoppolo is probably rated a handful of spots too high considering he has had all of 7 starts. Watson put up way better stats (in 1 less start) and somehow is a spot lower. Maybe because of better talent to throw to?

-Eli Manning is poop.



TOO LOW:

-Kirk Cousins probably belongs a few spots higher. Most certainly above Garoppolo/Newton/Carr, and probably above Stafford/Luck.

-Alex Smith gets no love. No problem with him being tied with Cousins, but they both need to be above the previously listed.

-Dalton needs to be about 8-9 spots higher.

-Bradford needs to be 8-10 spots higher. How could he possibly be behind Bortles? Nowhere else in the rankings have they punished being fragile except for Bradford.

-Putting McCarron behind Trubisky is just cruel.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Of course shifting down some guys far enough would push a different guy up a spot or two, but more or less the rest of the order I don't see a big problem with.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2018, 12:08 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Remember, these are the guys that allowed Jimmy to slip to the 62nd overall pick. 

Now they're ranking him the 13th best QB in the world based on 5 games. 

In all fairness Jimmy G went 2-0 with a Patriots team and was dismissed as being on a team anyone can win with and then he went to an 0-8 team that was on a 2-22 streak and won all 5 remaining games.  Small sample size, but that's a pretty impressive feat.  If we would have traded McCarron to the Browns midseason and he won every remaining game with that crap squad I bet we'd be kicking ourselves (regardless if it's the right or wrong thing to do).

I'll also say this whole "judging a QB based on a small sample size" fear we have going right now is interesting since Nick Foles went from a backup, to a one-year-wonder, to a backup, to a SB MVP everyone wants.  I'll admit when Foles had that great season with the Eagles I asked my friend who is a Giants fan if he was dreading a rival having a youthful and successful QB and he said he wasn't worried until he did it more than once.  Well, Foles fizzled out and I had to admit he was right.  Now here we are again where he was wrong...or something.  Who knows.  

[fredtoast]

(07-26-2018, 08:45 PM)BengalChris Wrote:  All of their tier 2 QBs have out played Dalton, with the exception of Luck.

Carr and Wentz haven't.  Their career ratings are not as good as Daltons and their best seasons were not as good as Dalton's best season.

Wentz has fumbled 23 times in two seasons.  Dalton only fumbled 24 times in his first five seasons.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2018, 02:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: -Bradford needs to be 8-10 spots higher. How could he possibly be behind Bortles? Nowhere else in the rankings have they punished being fragile except for Bradford.

Bradford's health is very specific to his knee and very not good.  The guy doesn't get IR-ed because he takes unlucky hits, the guy plays one good game of football and then the next day he wakes up and his knee is IR-worthy.  He gets injured by simply playing football, sometimes only a single game.  Zimmer called it a 'degenerative' knee issue, and I don't see much to dispute that.

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 10:02 AM)Nately120 Wrote: In all fairness Jimmy G went 2-0 with a Patriots team and was dismissed as being on a team anyone can win with and then he went to an 0-8 team that was on a 2-22 streak and won all 5 remaining games.  Small sample size, but that's a pretty impressive feat.  If we would have traded McCarron to the Browns midseason and he won every remaining game with that crap squad I bet we'd be kicking ourselves (regardless if it's the right or wrong thing to do).

I'll also say this whole "judging a QB based on a small sample size" fear we have going right now is interesting since Nick Foles went from a backup, to a one-year-wonder, to a backup, to a SB MVP everyone wants.  I'll admit when Foles had that great season with the Eagles I asked my friend who is a Giants fan if he was dreading a rival having a youthful and successful QB and he said he wasn't worried until he did it more than once.  Well, Foles fizzled out and I had to admit he was right.  Now here we are again where he was wrong...or something.  Who knows.  

Of all the guys with a small sample size Jimmy is the one I would bet turns out to be a very good QB.  I actually watched him play a couple of games for the Niners (my nephews favorite team) last year and he looks legit.  He is a well coached 4 year veteran who seems very smart and under control.

[grampahol]

What? Woodside isn't on the list? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I SAY! uhhhh..shocked.. 

Ok, I'm not really shocked..  

[sandwedge]

(07-27-2018, 02:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bad rankings are bad...


TOO HIGH:

-Andrew Luck has a career sub-60% completion, the exact same YPA as Dalton (7.2), and 87.3 QB Rating, a losing record outside of his weak division, missed the ENTIRE 2017 season with a shoulder injury, and has missed 26 of his last 48 games. He is just a lot of hype and promise.

-Ben Roethlisberger has no business being Tier 1. I would buy Tier 2. In 14 years, he has thrown for 30 TDs twice, never more than 32. He has 1 career 4,500 yard season, and only 5/14 seasons has he reached 4,000 yards. Putting him and his career 94 QB Rating (only 2 seasons with 100+ QB Rating, 0 with 105+ QB Rating) in the same category with Brady (6 & 4), Rogers (7 & 3), and Brees (7 & 2) is a joke. Roethlisberger also has only played 16 games in a season 3 times in 14 years.

-Small quibble, but I would remove the T-1 from Rodgers and Brady and go Brady 1, Rodgers 2. Rodgers is no Brady in the postseason.. (9-7 record for Rodgers, 27-10 record for Brady).

-QB Record isn't everything, but Matthew Stafford is a losing QB who is just king of the garbage time. Matthew Stafford could be my #7 QB if games were changed to only ever consist of the 4th quarter. Lol

-Cam Newton is the single most overrated QB in the NFL today, saving Luck from that title. One of these QB gets rated 10th, the other 22nd (Dalton probably belongs 12-13).
Newton: 58.5% Completion, 25,074yds, 7.3 YPA, 158 TD/94 INT, 85.3 QB Rating
Dalton: 62.3% Competion, 25,534yds, 7.2 YPA, 167 TD/93 INT, 88.7 QB Rating

-Garoppolo is probably rated a handful of spots too high considering he has had all of 7 starts. Watson put up way better stats (in 1 less start) and somehow is a spot lower. Maybe because of better talent to throw to?

-Eli Manning is poop.



TOO LOW:

-Kirk Cousins probably belongs a few spots higher. Most certainly above Garoppolo/Newton/Carr, and probably above Stafford/Luck.

-Alex Smith gets no love. No problem with him being tied with Cousins, but they both need to be above the previously listed.

-Dalton needs to be about 8-9 spots higher.

-Bradford needs to be 8-10 spots higher. How could he possibly be behind Bortles? Nowhere else in the rankings have they punished being fragile except for Bradford.

-Putting McCarron behind Trubisky is just cruel.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Of course shifting down some guys far enough would push a different guy up a spot or two, but more or less the rest of the order I don't see a big problem with.

Well said! I watched Good Morning Football yesterday and Tiki Barber trashed Dalton for his play last year. Said Dalton should be elite or be gone... Never once mentioned he had the worse line in the NFL or no running game to help out.

[BengalChris]

(07-27-2018, 10:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Carr and Wentz haven't.  Their career ratings are not as good as Daltons and their best seasons were not as good as Dalton's best season.

Wentz has fumbled 23 times in two seasons.  Dalton only fumbled 24 times in his first five seasons.

Well, okay.

I still believe Dalton's rating is about right. Now if he can change his prime time and post season play then Dalton will move up the list. It's difficult to move a guy up who has failed so miserably in the post season.

[HuDey]

I won’t argue these rankings much. They placed Dalton at the very bottom of the range that I would place him in, so he could be a handful of spots higher and I wouldn’t argue with that either. I do think that Luck should have to prove himself healthy and worthy of a top 10 ranking before I would put him there due to the injuries and questions that remain about his health moving forward.

I have no problem with the “sample size” guys (Garoppolo and Watson) as they were good enough that I would hedge my bets towards them over the conga line of mediocrity that follows them.