Elephant in the room - run game

[Hoofhearted]

(08-28-2018, 10:10 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I hope you guys are right  :andy:

I think our defense is gonna be a good one at least upper half, perhaps even upper third ? I think they'll keep us in most games. But when it starts getting down to crunch time later in the season, the weather gets worse, more game film on you. You need to be able to run the ball with some success.

I like Andy Dalton and I think he's more than capable of getting it done for us. But in the same breath asking Dalton to put this team on his back and throw us to victory is asking to much IMHO.

To be completely honest I don't think this is our year yet anyways. I think it's gonna be next season. We still need a RT and RG. But man it would be nice to see it start coming together this year.

I'm actually a little worried about our run D still. Marcus freaking Murphy had 58 yards on 11 carries (5.5 avg). Cowboys wasn't much better. The run D has some ways to go as well.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

You guys have way too much confidence in a pass first offense run by Dalton. He needs a solid run game to be successful and if we do not have one they will simply take away the pass. Teams have always looked to get pressure on Dalton as he is less accurate so with no run game it will be all out pass rush and press coverage. They will dare him to throw with accuracy.

Our OL will be our undoing this season again. Remember when Zeitler signed for $10M with the Browns everyone said that was crazy money, now that is the standard for a very good guard. He should have been resigned at that time.

And another item of note, we only pay Dalton I think $14M per year but a lot of other teams are paying their QB's $20M or more now - so how is it they can do that, be under the capo and win? For all the cap talk around here, what would our situation be if we had to pay our QB over $20M per year?

[Fullrock]

(08-28-2018, 10:44 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: You guys have way too much confidence in a pass first offense run by Dalton. He needs a solid run game to be successful and if we do not have one they will simply take away the pass. Teams have always looked to get pressure on Dalton as he is less accurate so with no run game it will be all out pass rush and press coverage. They will dare him to throw with accuracy.

Our OL will be our undoing this season again. Remember when Zeitler signed for $10M with the Browns everyone said that was crazy money, now that is the standard for a very good guard. He should have been resigned at that time.

And another item of note, we only pay Dalton I think $14M per year but a lot of other teams are paying their QB's $20M or more now - so how is it they can do that, be under the capo and win? For all the cap talk around here, what would our situation be if we had to pay our QB over $20M per year?

I actually do have confidence in Dalton leading THIS offense if it becomes more pass oriented. Statistical studies show that an NFL starting QB's prime years are from age 26 to 31. So when Dalton began to enter his prime in 2015, he put up the best numbers of his career before the thumb injury sidelined him for the end of the season and would have been a legitimate MVP candidate.

Then comes 2016. Marvin Jones and Sanu walked via free agency. AJ played just 6 games. Eifert played half a season. So for the majority of the year they had no receivers who could create separation, and it showed as the O-line gave up 41 sacks after giving up just 20 the year before. Hard to throw the football if there is no one to throw it to.

Then 2017. Worst O-line in the league. Worst running game in the league. Mid-season change at offensive coordinator. No Eifert. Boyd inactive for several games (for whatever reason). Ross can't get on the field. Defenses take away AJ and the team is no threat offensively.

What should have been two of Dalton's prime years got erased by poor offensive line play, injuries, and a poor hire as offensive coordinator, and he STILL threw for 43 TD's and 20 INT's the last two seasons, solid numbers when you consider all the things that happened around him.

I'm guessing we will see numbers much closer to the 2015 season when you consider AJ is still AJ, Ross' speed opposite AJ has to be accounted for, Boyd is much better than he was the last two years (almost non-existent last year until the end of the season), Eifert is one of the top TE threats in the league, and Mixon and Gio are two of the better receivers out of the backfield you will find with an offensive coordinator who appears to be willing to use them in that capacity by splitting them out and getting them matched up on linebackers.

If the O-Line gives Dalton time (obviously it will be better than last year), and the weapons stay healthy, Dalton is primed for a big year in my opinion.

[Sweetness]

(08-28-2018, 10:44 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Our OL will be our undoing this season again. Remember when Zeitler signed for $10M with the Browns everyone said that was crazy money, now that is the standard for a very good guard. He should have been resigned at that time.

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you say but this part I think is a little off. Zeitler is the 3rd highest paid guard in the entire league. He's decent but he is no where near the 3rd best guard. The browns way overpaid and reached for him. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-28-2018, 10:25 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: It's been bad since Jeremy Hills rookie year 

Yes it has !

The last half of that season was the last time we were able to run the ball successfully with any consistency at all.

[kevin]

(08-26-2018, 10:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: We had a total of 68 yards on 27 carries in the game for a 2.5 YPC average. But in the first half our starters had like 10 yards on 9 carries or something against the Bills 1st string.

I'm very concerned to put it mildly ! I don't pretend to have an answer but there's no way we're going to have a successful season averaging 2 yards a carry or something. Like Shake said in the game day thread we can survive with an ok run game but we're gonna get killed with a crappy one.

And right now we stink !

Look, the Bengals were great in that first half. You are being a worry wart.  Of course they aren't going to get rushing yards when the long bomb to Ross hits first play and Dalton is hitting everybody.  Look, I saw the O Line blocking.  Many see Ross, I see the O Line blocking.  This O Line is coming together with rookie Price and Bills Left Tackle. Because of NFL Players Union training camp and practices cut way back, they have only been at this new O Line for about 4 weeks now. They have 2 weeks before start of season. All things considered, they looked good to me Preseason Game 3 and they did not, as you say, " Stink ".  That was a great first half. 

[Whodey614]

This team not being able to draft Will Hernandez or Braden Smith due to the failed Browns trade was a huge missed opportunity. I can understand why they didn't go tackle in the 4th or 5th rounds - they already had 2 premium pick tackles they thought were better if Pollack was able to get the most out of them. There's still a chance he can, but having an absolute mauler like Hernandez would help offset any struggles we'll most likely have at RT. Like Zeitler did with Andre Smith when his play started declining. Guard isn't looking so pretty since it's obvious that Westerman is not getting a shot. Hopkins is okay at best sometimes, Redmond is a penalty machine and isn't polished in pass blocking but he can do more in the run game.

That said, the line is miles better than last year, and it's unrealistic to expect an elite line when it's clearly still under a rebuild. If the line can hold up in pass protection like it did against Buffalo and produce an average running game at the very least, we're a 10 win team.

[*Synric*]

(08-28-2018, 10:25 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: It's been bad since Jeremy Hills rookie year 

(08-28-2018, 01:18 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yes it has !

The last half of that season was the last time we were able to run the ball successfully with any consistency at all.

The Bengals were a solid rushing team in 2015.

I know someone will bring up the running backs YPC but it's misleading. In 2015 they were not afraid to run on 3 and short because they consistently converted. Jeremy Hill also had nose for the end zone from around the 10 yard line. What they were missing was those big chunk runs which kept the YPC down.


Edit: As for 2018 they need to figure out some semblance for a run game because they can't be one dimensional on offense. The AFC North seems to be fielding the really good defenses this season.

[Hoofhearted]

(08-28-2018, 01:35 PM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals were a solid rushing team in 2015.

I know someone will bring up the running backs YPC but it's misleading. In 2015 they were not afraid to run on 3 and short because they consistently converted. Jeremy Hill also had nose for the end zone from around the 10 yard line. What they were missing was those big chunk runs which kept the YPC down.


Edit: As for 2018 they need to figure out some semblance for a run game because they can't be one dimensional on offense. The AFC North seems to be fielding the really good defenses this season.

Gio carried that teams rushing attack thru the first half, while Hill pounded it in from close. It was a solid rushing attack, but other than that, it hasn't been that great -- sometimes borderline awful. And that 2015 squad probably had one of the better offensive lines in a while (Whit, Boling, Bodine, Z, Andre). It's really confusing seeing as they have their QB, WR1, TE1....but just don't seem to get a lot out of the ground game. You give AD a top 10 rushing attack with those outside weapons and Eifert, that would be a sight to see on the field

[*Synric*]

(08-28-2018, 01:58 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Gio carried that teams rushing attack thru the first half, while Hill pounded it in from close. It was a solid rushing attack, but other than that, it hasn't been that great -- sometimes borderline awful. And that 2015 squad probably had one of the better offensive lines in a while (Whit, Boling, Bodine, Z, Andre). It's really confusing seeing as they have their QB, WR1, TE1....but just don't seem to get a lot out of the ground game. You give AD a top 10 rushing attack with those outside weapons and Eifert, that would be a sight to see on the field

The offense was more pass heavy in 2015. They ended up ranked like what 12(?) in rush yards but were near the top of the league in rushing TDs?

I believe if they would have lined up in more heavy formations like 2014 they would have been top 10 in 2015. 

[Hoofhearted]

(08-28-2018, 02:13 PM)Synric Wrote: The offense was more pass heavy in 2015. They ended up ranked like what 12(?) in rush yards but were near the top of the league in rushing TDs?

I believe if they would have lined up in more heavy formations like 2014 they would have been top 10 in 2015. 

They actually ran more rushing plays that year that the last two years. But yeah, they had a lot more success throwing the ball with a healthy Eifert that year. Probably also helped with opening some running lanes, too.

[RASCAL]

(08-27-2018, 04:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Buffalo is really good at stopping the run, really good last season.

I think going against the Colts Defense will be much easier for us to run on.

I hope so for Daltons sake! 

[The Caped Crusader]

(08-28-2018, 10:44 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: You guys have way too much confidence in a pass first offense run by Dalton. He needs a solid run game to be successful and if we do not have one they will simply take away the pass. Teams have always looked to get pressure on Dalton as he is less accurate so with no run game it will be all out pass rush and press coverage. They will dare him to throw with accuracy.

Our OL will be our undoing this season again. Remember when Zeitler signed for $10M with the Browns everyone said that was crazy money, now that is the standard for a very good guard. He should have been resigned at that time.

And another item of note, we only pay Dalton I think $14M per year but a lot of other teams are paying their QB's $20M or more now - so how is it they can do that, be under the capo and win? For all the cap talk around here, what would our situation be if we had to pay our QB over $20M per year?

I think you're also forgetting a huge, HUGE nugget here...and that's pass protection. Dalton has clearly flourished this pre-season in passing thanks to a competent pass protection. Something he was completely without. We have yet to see anything managing a run game, and he's still managed to look competent and accurate. This is probably Dalton's sharpest pre-season. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-28-2018, 08:40 AM)Fullrock Wrote: I'm not all that concerned about the run game yet. There is no game planning in the preseason. When defenses start game planning on how you stop the passing game with AJ, Boyd, Ross, Eifert, and our backs who are excellent in the passing game, I think we will see a completely different ability to run the football. Not to mention, game planning to use some of the strengths of the O-line that includes pull and trap plays.

Yeah, hard to judge the running game this Preseason with the new Line and the Defenses we went against.

We will know something opening day. All i know is i like seeing that pocket that Price is giving Dalton.

Think Dalton likes it too. :andy:

[3wt]

(08-28-2018, 08:40 AM)Fullrock Wrote: I'm not all that concerned about the run game yet. There is no game planning in the preseason. When defenses start game planning on how you stop the passing game with AJ, Boyd, Ross, Eifert, and our backs who are excellent in the passing game, I think we will see a completely different ability to run the football. Not to mention, game planning to use some of the strengths of the O-line that includes pull and trap plays.

I thought that one of the problems with the line was that our pulling linemen were just whiffing.   Saw Boling miss one and Price whiff.

I'm hoping that once they've established their line that the linemen will adjust and start making those blocks.  With the ones (excluding Redmond) the problem did not seem to be push.  TEs were also whiffing on their blocks - except Hewitt.  Really hope they don't jettison him.  Kroft has not looked good blocking this year, but looked pretty good last year.

So there is reason to hope that once the line gets their chemistry down and shakes off the rust they'll improve enough to give the offense the needed dimension to their attack.

On defense the middle seemed stout.  The ends did a poor job of setting the edge.  They would often get sucked inside and the QB or RB would just scoot laterally and pick up yards.

I don't think (particularly on defense) it's a lack of talent.  They just need to be more disciplined.

One more thing.   MJ needs to go.  He's just a body at this point.  Can't set the edge and gets whipped all over the place in the middle.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(08-28-2018, 03:49 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: I think you're also forgetting a huge, HUGE nugget here...and that's pass protection. Dalton has clearly flourished this pre-season in passing thanks to a competent pass protection. Something he was completely without. We have yet to see anything managing a run game, and he's still managed to look competent and accurate. This is probably Dalton's sharpest pre-season. 

I did not miss it, but Dalton has never been accurate in big games so the lack of a running game will hurt when it counts most. The two I trust the least on this team are ML and Dalton

[3wt]

This gave me a little hope, reinforcing my observation that most of our running game problems seem to be related to the timing of pulling and 2nd level blocks. 

We'll see!

https://www.bengals.com/news/mixon-yards-are-there

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-29-2018, 04:11 PM)3wt Wrote: This gave me a little hope, reinforcing my observation that most of our running game problems seem to be related to the timing of pulling and 2nd level blocks. 

We'll see!

https://www.bengals.com/news/mixon-yards-are-there

Good stuff, the O-line just has to gain that chemistry together than the Backs can eat up the yards. Timing is big and
as Mixon is saying it is 11 guys out there and just have to execute. We will see in Indy if they start to really get the
timing down on their pulls or if they want to line up in less complicated run blocking assignments like we did late last
year. It is early and for people to think it was just going to come together immediately against very good run stopping
Defenses in Preseason i think were kidding themselves.

It should take time, just happy Dalton has a pocket to step into and the pass protection is not the problem.

If it was the other way and we were blocking well in the run game and Dalton was hit on nearly every play i would be
much more concerned.