Tipped Passes

[thompson19osu]

I was not able to find anything through research on the number of tipped passes but I feel like this has always been an issue with Andy Dalton in recent years and I think that is related to the poor O line play and people being pushed back into his face.

While the run blocking sure needs to be improved one thing I have noticed from this preseason is that Dalton actually has a legit pocket to settle into. He looks very comfortable back there with some time to throw. This is allowing for some pinpoint passes especially which really shined in the Bills game and what I have also noticed is a major decrease in the number of tipped passes.

I’m thinking we are going to see a monster year from Dalton with completion percentage up and INTs down as he will have more time and comfortability in the pocket this year.

[Joelist]

(08-28-2018, 11:22 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: I was not able to find anything through research on the number of tipped passes but I feel like this has always been an issue with Andy Dalton in recent years and I think that is related to the poor O line play and people being pushed back into his face.

While the run blocking sure needs to be improved one thing I have noticed from this preseason is that Dalton actually has a legit pocket to settle into.  He looks very comfortable back there with some time to throw. This is allowing for some pinpoint passes especially which really shined in the Bills game and what I have also noticed is a major decrease in the number of tipped passes.

I’m thinking we are going to see a monster year from Dalton with completion percentage up and INTs down as he will have more time and comfortability in the pocket this year.

Andy only really had one year where INTs were an issue. He generally does not throw lots of INTs. 

Where having an actual pocket is really benefitting him is he has (for the first time in his career) been able to step into his throws. Result = dropping dimes all over the field. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-28-2018, 11:33 PM)Joelist Wrote: Andy only really had one year where INTs were an issue. He generally does not throw lots of INTs. 

Where having an actual pocket is really benefitting him is he has (for the first time in his career) been able to step into his throws. Result = dropping dimes all over the field. 

He’s thrown more than 15 INTs 3 times. 20 in 2013, 17 in 2014, and 16 in 2012. Guess it depends on what you consider an issue...

[grampahol]

We'll have to see as the season progresses, but so far in PS he seems more comfortable in the pocket. He's going to get his share of INTs, but quite a few last year weren't his fault, but because of receivers being in the wrong spot or not catching them. Not every INT is the QBs fault. Maybe it's just me ,but it sure seems like Palmer threw more INTs of his own making than Andy has over the years   

[Sweetness]

(08-28-2018, 11:22 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: I was not able to find anything through research on the number of tipped passes but I feel like this has always been an issue with Andy Dalton in recent years and I think that is related to the poor O line play and people being pushed back into his face.

I always felt like it had more to do with his height and possibly his release point. Even when we had our best Olines he was consistently having balls batted down. 

[Big Boss]

Dalton's had his share of awful, "what was he thinking?" type of interceptions. Having said that, it feels like a lot of the time his interceptions come off of deflections.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-29-2018, 08:25 AM)Sweetness Wrote: I always felt like it had more to do with his height and possibly his release point. Even when we had our best Olines he was consistently having balls batted down. 

That's a big part of it, no doubt.  You combine that with a center shoved in your lap most plays, and it's a recipe for tipped balls.  I think that's why he throws high sometimes.....to compensate for batted balls.

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-29-2018, 08:25 AM)Sweetness Wrote: I always felt like it had more to do with his height and possibly his release point. Even when we had our best Olines he was consistently having balls batted down. 

Agree,

But I feel the very passive pass pro we ran has it's part in it as well. Every time a D-lineman leaves his feet knock him on his ass and they'll be a lot less likely to jump after that.

[XenoMorph]

(08-29-2018, 12:08 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s thrown more than 15 INTs 3 times. 20 in 2013, 17 in 2014, and 16 in 2012. Guess it depends on what you consider an issue...

But how many of those bounced out of a WRs hands

[BURROWorBUST]

I'm optimistic about the QB coach (Van Pelt). He said that he's working to help Andy make the difficult plays, implying that Andy's great when he's got protection and so on, but that he struggles under pressure. That's when we see him making mistakes, including throwing balls without seeing defenders (usually LBs) near the passing lane who might tip the ball before it reaches the receiver. Andy's great in his pre-snap decisions, but not always so great with his post-snap decisions. That's one of the things Van Pelt is helping him work on.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-29-2018, 10:23 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: But how many of those bounced out of a WRs hands

That happens to every QB in the league. Are we going to make that excuse when talking about their numbers?

[3wt]

(08-29-2018, 09:36 AM)Wyche Wrote: That's a big part of it, no doubt.  You combine that with a center shoved in your lap most plays, and it's a recipe for tipped balls.  I think that's why he throws high sometimes.....to compensate for batted balls.

How does Brees do with balls being batted down?  He's certainly no taller than Dalton - I would say shorter.

[*bfine32*]

(08-29-2018, 10:23 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: But how many of those bounced out of a WRs hands

Probably pretty close to the same number that bounced off the defender's hands when trying to make the INT on a poorly thrown ball.

Folks always want to take INTs away from QBs because 1 or 2 each year may be deflected by a receiver; however, nobody ever wants to add the ones the defenders dropped or the WR broke up.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-29-2018, 11:43 AM)3wt Wrote: How does Brees do with balls being batted down?  He's certainly no taller than Dalton - I would say shorter.

He's got plenty of experience and is better would be my guess.  It's just speculation on my part, to be clear.

[thompson19osu]

(08-29-2018, 09:36 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: That's a big part of it, no doubt.  You combine that with a center shoved in your lap most plays, and it's a recipe for tipped balls.  I think that's why he throws high sometimes.....to compensate for batted balls.

Agreed and I think this is where we already see a difference. The line is not collapsing right into his face. I’m hoping will carry over into the regular season.

[Daddy-O]

(08-29-2018, 09:36 AM)Wyche Wrote: That's a big part of it, no doubt.  You combine that with a center shoved in your lap most plays, and it's a recipe for tipped balls.  I think that's why he throws high sometimes.....to compensate for batted balls.

Agreed.  I think he has changed his release point in the past due to the lack of pocket space.

[Circleville Guy]

I think that Dalton is in the prime of his career right now. His maturity and leadership levels should be at an all time high right now. The new line has looked tons better at pass blocking. The run game should get better as the line starts to gel more, they’ll probably lean on the TE more until then. I’m actually excited about this season, I wasn’t at any point this time, last year.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-29-2018, 10:22 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree,

But I feel the very passive pass pro we ran has it's part in it as well. Every time a D-lineman leaves his feet knock him on his ass and they'll be a lot less likely to jump after that.

Yes, we've had conversations on the board about this.  While it's true that the OL doesn't know when the pass will happen, and thus has no idea if, or when the DL will jump, if you know him on his tail a time or two, he'll be reluctant to repeat the action.  

If you think about it, the DL is completely vulnerable, at that moment.  A shot to the solar plexus might send him to the sideline for a play or two..

[clevelandsdad]

I think there is a reason he gets as many ball batted down as he does, but I don't think it's his height.

It's well documented that Dalton gets the ball out post-snap quicker than most QB's in the league. He will almost always get the ball out after 2 seconds from the ball being snapped. I believe the reason the offense is schemed this way is because Dalton has very poor pocket mobility/maneuverability. Unlike a Brees, Brady or Big Ben, Dalton lacks the ability to maneuver around his o-linemen when the pressure comes. Ever noticed he never steps up in the pocket? I think he lacks this ability, so to make up for it the offense has shifted to a quick passing attack.

Due to this stat, the d-linemen have it fairly easy. They can know that at about 2 seconds post-snap, the ball will likely be released. If they put their hands up then, there's a good chance that they can bat the ball down.

An unfortunate limitation of Dalton's, it will continue to be one we have to work around. Unless Van Pelt has a bag of tricks waiting.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-28-2018, 11:22 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: I was not able to find anything through research on the number of tipped passes but I feel like this has always been an issue with Andy Dalton in recent years and I think that is related to the poor O line play and people being pushed back into his face.

While the run blocking sure needs to be improved one thing I have noticed from this preseason is that Dalton actually has a legit pocket to settle into.  He looks very comfortable back there with some time to throw. This is allowing for some pinpoint passes especially which really shined in the Bills game and what I have also noticed is a major decrease in the number of tipped passes.

I’m thinking we are going to see a monster year from Dalton with completion percentage up and INTs down as he will have more time and comfortability in the pocket this year.

Yeah, this always takes me back to the playoff game against the Texans and that passive blocking.

If the guy blocking Watt is trying to push him back he doesn't get that int or the TD and we probably win.

This has been aggressive pass blocking with the Center in Price actually giving Dalton a pocket.

You are correct about tipped passes being a problem in the past, hope it is now in the past.

Looking for Dalton to have his best season in 2018 for sure.