We Might Have Missed BIG Time (2017 Draft)

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 05:49 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) The teams have done those transactions also have made major personal moves that have helped there team. Also Marvin has taken a team that had a 4 win season the year prior twice to the playoffs the Next season.  Roster upgrades tend to go hand in hand with rebuilding teams.

2.) Lazor would have had 8 games under 20 as well if it wasn't for the Defense intercepting 4 passes and returning them to the 1 Kirk against Denver and  the 2 yard line by Dennard against the Titans, a TD by Jackson,  an a TD by Dunlap against the Colts. So it's not like we we're over powering teams with our offense last season. By the way that unit was crap and I think Lazor got the best out of them . So I don't really think it was his problem but the Defense did help them get past 17 a couple of times last season.

The moves you listed for the Rams weren't all that thrilling. I see bad teams (winning the off-season) signing better players than that, and they still wind up sucking just as badly. Maybe this article will help you understand the difference McVay has made:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/11/16/sean-mcvay-los-angeles-rams-offense-jared-goff

Here are some excerpts:

Sean McVay’s Brilliant Offensive Mind Has Transformed the Los Angeles Rams

This much you likely know: At 31, Sean McVay is the youngest head coach in NFL history. This part you likely don’t: McVay is already the league’s best offensive mind. Period. That mind is what earned him his job with the Rams last winter, and it’s what has those Rams sitting atop the NFC West at 7–2. 

L.A. scored a mere 14.0 points per game last season, easily the fewest in the NFL, and finished below .500 for a 10th straight season. Through Week 10 of 2017, McVay’s Rams have more than doubled that average, up to 32.9, notching 72 more total points already than in all of ’16. (If the season ended today their points-per-game increase would be the biggest in the modern era.) And this all looks sustainable, given that Jared Goff, the No. 1 pick last year, has seen his passer rating climb from 63.6 (dead last in the league) to 101.5 (No. 7).

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Shanahan believed in marrying his running and passing games, such that all of his plays initially looked the same. The scheme that best fits this approach begins with an outside-zone ground game, where your offensive line moves in unison. Here, a defense typically flows with the zone blocking, which makes the scheme particularly conducive to play-action.


The best zone offense in recent memory? That belonged to the 2016 Falcons, coordinated by Shanahan’s son, Kyle, who’d been on that old Redskins staff with his dad. . . and McVay. Three days after Shanahan’s Atlanta offense played in Super Bowl LI, last February, McVay snapped up the Falcons’ quarterbacks coach, 37-year-old Matt LaFleur, to be his own offensive coordinator. (LaFleur was also on that Shanahan staff in Washington.) Together, McVay and LaFleur have adopted many of Atlanta’s zone-running and play-action concepts.


The play-action, in particular, has helped Goff immensely. The run fake (against predictable first- and second-down defensive looks) slows down pass rushers and manipulates linebackers and safeties. Under McVay, these are timing and rhythm throws, almost always with reads to just one side of the field. And it’s paying off. This season, according to Football Outsiders, the Rams are using play-action on 25% of their dropbacks (fourth-most in the league) and averaging 8.5 yards per play (11th-most).


Much of that play-action success stems from McVay’s play-calling rhythm. His feel for this is uncanny. Watching Rams film can be like reading a story with a great motif; everything correlates to an underlying theme. McVay will run plays on his third series that look like plays he ran on his first and second series—but only initially. They morph as they unfold.

McVay is a master too at conjuring up downfield route combos that complicate and blur the responsibilities of zone defenders. That feeling you get when you’re walking down the sidewalk and you realize your path is shared with an oncoming stranger—that’s how playing zone coverage against McVay’s offense feels. As a defender, it can put you in a bind.


So can McVay’s formations. This team, more than any other, aligns its receivers tight to the formation, inside the field numbers. Those tighter splits eliminate the sideline (an imposing 12th defender), giving each L.A. receiver a two-way go. Defenders must cover more ground and more route possibilities; because of the clustered spacing, they’re more susceptible to rub and pick routes. McVay builds a lot of these rubs and picks into the beginnings of his plays by aligning receivers close to one another, and those receivers get open quickly. It’s what the Patriots have perfected in recent years. It’s how you beat man coverage.


Something else McVay pilfered from the Pats: the use of presnap motion. Often, a Rams receiver will align wide and motion down into the clustered tight split. This puts defenders on their heels. They must play with more cushion, and their response almost always tells Goff whether he’s facing man or zone coverage. If a defender follows the motioning receiver, it’s typically man; if he doesn’t, it’s zone. This information is particularly valuable in McVay’s system, in which he’ll often have two sets of route combinations: man-coverage-beaters on one side of the field, zone-beaters on the other. He has an answer for almost everything.


Let’s be fair about this all: As primed as McVay is to take L.A. to the next level, he is overseeing a more talented group than the one Jeff Fisher led in 2016. Goff is a year older, the O-line is stabilized by veteran free-agent pickups at left tackle and center, the receiving corps is totally revamped.

The biggest difference, though, is the way this offense is being orchestrated. A commanding play-caller makes a quarterback more comfortable. And a comfortable quarterback is one who will play with pocket poise and decisiveness in those critical moments when play design alone isn’t enough. The Rams are still rebuilding, but with a gifted coach, the foundation for excellence is already in place.

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 05:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sorry man, but that isn't enough change to explain going from 4-12 with the 32nd ranked offense (224 points) to 11-5 with the #1 ranked offense (478 points). Watkins was a bust in Buffalo. Sullivan was a backup with the Redskins. Kupp isn't exactly AJ Green. Whit was a nice add, but you don't go from freaking 32nd to 1st (they more than doubled their point total) just by adding Whitworth and 3 decent players. 

The real difference was that Fisher couldn't get the best out of Goff. His system was primitive and predictable. But don't take my word for it. Todd Gurley called it a "middle school offense" during the 2016 season:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/rams-jared-goff-says-hes-living-with-bears-mitch-trubisky-this-offseason/

In the same article, there is a quote from Jordan Howard criticizing the Bears offense in 2017, saying the offense was "basic" and defenses "knew what we were going to do". So out went (defensive minded) John Fox, and in with (offensive minded) Matt Nagy. The Bears mimicked the Rams. Why? Coaching matters. A lot. 

(10-22-2018, 05:55 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: You're gonna sit here and tell me that adding Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods was heralded as adding great talent?
Woods had 12 TDs in 4 years in Buffalo. Never had more than 700 receiving yards until last year.
Watkins had a great year in 2015, but fell of drastically outside of that year.

The Rams had the WORST offense in football in 2015 AND 2016.
Then they rank 10th in the NFL the next year. That doesn't just change in one year unless things change overall. Sure. Players help.
But you really think the Rams are gonna have a top 10 offense under Jeff Fisher with that team?
Because facts would prove otherwise.
The best year they had on offense, they ranked 23rd in the NFL. In 2012.
From 2013-16 they ranked in the bottom five. And again, in case you forgot, were ranked dead last in the NFL for two straight years.

To the second point: The Bengals have had an elite group of players. And guess how many playoff wins they've won with inept coaching?

The following players have been All-Pros (first and second team) from those playoff years from 2011-15:
Geno Atkins (3x), Andre Smith, AJ Green (3x), Vontaze Burfict, Adam Jones, Kevin Huber, Andrew Whitworth (2x), Reggie Nelson

That's eight different players playing at elite levels. Three of them doing it multiple years.

You have a team with AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Adam Jones, Vontze Burfict, Reggie Nelson, Andrew Whitworth, and many others. And you can't win ONE playoff game?
Or beat the Steelers more than three times in those five years?

Really taking quotes from players is all we need to know about who is a good or bad coach? Every player is going to boost up the new coach and talk bad about the old coach after they left.
Adding Whitworth alone made a bigger difference than mcvay and no Watkins wasn't a bust in Buffalo so adding him was a major upgrade to that team.



 Wood's, Cupp, and Watkins we're a lot better than what they had than Austin, Quick, and whomever. Also Whit and Sullivan we're a lot better than what they had on the offensive line. They added 5 new quality players to their offensive team. They pretty much redid there WR core from the year prior that's very significant.

Thirdly Wolf we made the playoffs 5 straight years compare that to the rest of the league and tell me how were we stacked in comparison. Also how many playoff games has mcvay won as a head coach and coordinator? Does that make him less of a coach if he doesn't win one this year? 

[thillan]

To be clear guys - I don't think many refuse the fact that the coaching is poor. I honestly just think the ship has sailed on even talking about it. Signing ML again to a 2 year deal was a crushing blow. It's frustrating to even talk about.

I do agree on the points about the level of talent we have had over recent years though. I would even go to say we were kinda loaded for a while, and did absolutely nothing with it. We should've been feared.

[YsCascadia]

(10-22-2018, 05:34 PM)thillan Wrote: His knee injury was non-contact in practice..

Actually it wasn't exactly that... he had been taking some shots which made him injury prone.  Same thing happened to Watson.  I say injury prone, but not in a sense that he becomes glass, but after getting banged up a bit, if he doesn't rest and get 100% then simply walking could cause damage. 

The body can only take so much punishment.  It will decide for you when enough is enough.  So don't peddle the "non-contact in practice" since that is the moment the body gave out, but the injury happened long before that.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2018, 05:26 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Mcvay- the team improved their offensive line and weapons drastically last season. Cooper Kupp, Andrew Whitworth, Sammy Watkins( replaced with Brandin cooks) , and John  Sullivan.  They basically did the exact opposite of what we have done in the past two offseasons.  So if you want to ignore the mass talent that has arrived in LA  and give all the credit to the boy wonder than go ahead. It however doesn't make you any less wrong.

Lazor vs Zampese- I like what Lazor has done I do but let's be honest here. Exept for the second Ravens game we're we scored 31 points against aagood defense. we scored only 21 points total against the Jaguars, Bears, and Vikings. So good Defenses figured us out with Lazor as well.  Also against the Ravens in the first Game Dalton missed a wide open Core that would have been a TD and had two turnovers in the red zone.

Also pointing out I have never said coaching is meaningless but at the same time I would rather have an elite group of players than an elite coach any day of the week.

Damn Fred Jr..... I'm wrong? LMAO.....Belichick would like to speak with you.

How bout you just disagree.....cause about anyone you ask will say that coaching is a HUGE part of football success or failure. If you think Jeff Fisher was as good of a coach as the current one....well.... that's on you.  Kupp has a breakout year, Whit apparently wasn't good enough for the Bengals and Sammy Watkins has been considered a bust before. 

There is no comparison between Lazor and Zampese.....Zampese is WIDELY regarded as a terrible OC, not just on here.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 06:21 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Really taking quotes from players is all we need to know about who is a good or bad coach? Every player is going to boost up the new coach and talk bad about the old coach after they left.
Adding Whitworth alone made a bigger difference than mcvay and no Watkins wasn't a bust in Buffalo so adding him was a major upgrade to that team.



 Wood's, Cupp, and Watkins we're a lot better than what they had than Austin, Quick, and whomever. Also Whit and Sullivan we're a lot better than what they had on the offensive line. They added 5 new quality players to their offensive team. They pretty much redid there WR core from the year prior that's very significant.

Thirdly Wolf we made the playoffs 5 straight years compare that to the rest of the league and tell me how were we stacked in comparison. Also how many playoff games has mcvay won as a head coach and coordinator? Does that make him less of a coach if he doesn't win one this year? 

The quote from Gurley came when Fisher was still the head coach. So try again. Me, wolf, wyche and others have given you plenty of evidence why coaching/scheme is a huge deal. The SI article I linked goes into great detail on how McVay's schemes have greatly helped the Rams offense.

As to the players they added - again - outside of Whit, none of those guys were great players. You don't go from 32nd to 1st just by adding a small handful of players. If it were that easy, every losing team that "wins free agency" would experience a quick turnaround. Instead, it's usually the team that strikes gold with a coach.

[J24]

(10-23-2018, 08:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The quote from Gurley came when Fisher was still the head coach. So try again. Me, wolf, wyche and others have given you plenty of evidence why coaching/scheme is a huge deal. The SI article I linked goes into great detail on how McVay's schemes have greatly helped the Rams offense.

As to the players they added - again - outside of Whit, none of those guys were great players. You don't go from 32nd to 1st just by adding a small handful of players. If it were that easy, every losing team that "wins free agency" would experience a quick turnaround. Instead, it's usually the team that strikes gold with a coach.

No you haven't all you have done is given some BS article and flat out exaggerated scouting reports on players to fit your narrative.
Watkins had 1000 yard season in Buffalo with 9 TDs while missing 3 games in his second season in Buffalo. He also nearly had a 1000 yard season his rookie season with 6 TDs. His third season he only played 8 games due to injury. He was know where near a bust in Buffalo. Also if Watkins was just some guy then why did the Rams trade a first RD pick for Cooks to replace him?
Whit is a HOF LT who replaced a guy who was compareable to our 2015 1st Rd pick. That's a huge difference not a little difference.
Wood's was a solid player in Buffalo  similar to what Sanu was with us. Superstar maybe not but he was significantly better than what the Rams had before hand.
Sullivan- has been one of the best Centers in the NFL since he arrived in the NFL it was a huge get for the Rams.
Mcvay didn't sign a bunch of Garbage Players and turn them into superstars. Does he deserve credit of course but there a lot of coaches out there that could have done the same thing.

[*Synric*]

Coaching is very important. If it wasn't why would they need classrooms? Why would they watch tape?

Because there's so much to learn. Coaching is very very VERY important.

[bengalsturntup926]

This is sad talking about mcvey. Does marvin give the look of football intelligence? Or talk like it

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-23-2018, 09:50 PM)Synric Wrote: Coaching is very important. If it wasn't why would they need classrooms? Why would they watch tape?

Because there's so much to learn. Coaching is very very VERY important.

Tape? We don't need no stinkin tape! It's Madden out there kid....all you need is high talent rating.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 06:16 AM)Wyche Wrote: Tape? We don't need no stinkin tape! It's Madden out there kid....all you need is high talent rating.

BOOM 

[grampahol]

At least Marv has absolutely mastered the finest points of clapping when the chips are down . You guys just don't realize how hard it is to clap right after a pick 6.. 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-23-2018, 09:14 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: No you haven't all you have done is given some BS article and flat out exaggerated scouting reports on players to fit your narrative.
Watkins had 1000 yard season in Buffalo with 9 TDs while missing 3 games in his second season in Buffalo. He also nearly had a 1000 yard season his rookie season with 6 TDs. His third season he only played 8 games due to injury. He was know where near a bust in Buffalo. Also if Watkins was just some guy then why did the Rams trade a first RD pick for Cooks to replace him?
Whit is a HOF LT who replaced a guy who was compareable to our 2015 1st Rd pick. That's a huge difference not a little difference.
Wood's was a solid player in Buffalo  similar to what Sanu was with us. Superstar maybe not but he was significantly better than what the Rams had before hand.
Sullivan- has been one of the best Centers in the NFL since he arrived in the NFL it was a huge get for the Rams.
Mcvay didn't sign a bunch of Garbage Players and turn them into superstars. Does he deserve credit of course but there a lot of coaches out there that could have done the same thing.

See post #124. They go into vivid detail on McVay's schemes and the changes he's made that turned the Rams around. 

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The Bills gave the #9 overall pick, another 1st rounder and a 4th rounder to move up 5 spots to nab Watkins. That is a crap ton of value just to grab a WR. Watkins was supposed to be a transcendent talent. An AJ Green or a Randy Moss type of player. Instead, the Bills wound up trading him before his rookie contract was up.

What did the Bills give up Watkins (and a 6th rounder) for? E.J. Gaines (who?) and a 2nd rounder. That's a bust bro. Maybe not an Akili Smith level bust, but maybe a Reinard Wilson type of bust. The Bills took a massive loss just to move on from him.

Why did the Rams trade for Cooks to replace Watkins? Because Watkins was a disappointment. Just like he was in Buffalo.

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Whit is a good player. Whit was also a part of teams that went 7-9 and 6-9-1 prior to signing with the Rams. Whit wasn't enough to instantly turn a team around. 

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Sullivan was 32 when the Rams signed him and coming off a season where he was a backup with the Redskins. I'd still say it was a solid signing, but he's not the game-changer you're painting him to be. 

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The only players on offense that look like superstars are Jared Goff and Todd Gurley. Guys that looked terrible in 2016 with Jeff Fisher. Yes, the Rams addressed a couple problem spots on the o-line, but that does not explain a jump from #32 to #1 in offense. The Sports Illustrated article does a very good job of explaining, if you ever care to read it. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

Watson with a 5 TD game tonight...

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2018, 12:26 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Watson with a 5 TD game tonight...

...and still has the same amount of TD's as Dalton, despite playing 1 more game.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

Watson has a much higher ceiling.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-26-2018, 01:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...and still has the same amount of TD's as Dalton, despite playing 1 more game.

Just saying, Watson had a 5 TD 0 INT game last night against a Miami defense that our offense didn’t look all that great against. Watson seems to be trending up having won 5 games in a row now, and has a PR of 98.4.

I’m hoping Dalton has a big game against TB though.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2018, 05:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Just saying, Watson had a 5 TD 0 INT game last night against a Miami defense that our offense didn’t look all that great against. Watson seems to be trending up having won 5 games in a row now, and has a PR of 98.4.

I’m hoping Dalton has a big game against TB though.

He's definitely trending up after a rocky start. It's also a good sign that he's staying healthy. Losing Fuller might hurt though. They had a special connection.

We had a rough couple of weeks in games that we usually play rough in. That said, we (including Andy) should rebound big time against a team like Tampa. If we don't, I'd say this team is mentally defeated. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-26-2018, 09:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He's definitely trending up after a rocky start. It's also a good sign that he's staying healthy. Losing Fuller might hurt though. They had a special connection.

We had a rough couple of weeks in games that we usually play rough in. That said, we (including Andy) should rebound big time against a team like Tampa. If we don't, I'd say this team is mentally defeated. 

Let's hope the Pittsburgh hangover is over. I know you can say it about every game but this really is a giant game for this team. Lose it and the slide to the basement is very easy to see.

[Bengalbug]

(10-06-2018, 01:13 PM)whodey4life84 Wrote: Mahomes will have to play the whole year like this. Week 10 that nonsense will stop working for the Chiefs and they will collapse like always. Just like every year it's the Patriots are done yada yada yada. Mahomes looks like an Aaron Rodgers but you cant judge anyone off of just a few games.

It’s weeek 9... he still looks pretty good