Why Do Bengals Give Up More 3rd Downs Than Any NFL Team ?

[kevin]

The blocking on offense we knew. They traded, drafted, brought in free agents, brought in new O Line coach. Everybody knows the blocking has to improve over the last 2 years.

Why do the Bengals give up more 3rd downs on defense than any team in NFL ? I can't believe they have the worst players. What are they doing on 3rd down that's so wrong. What are other teams doing right ? They changed defensive coaches, still have so called D Guru Marvin, yet they keep giving up 3rd downs. Is it Hall and Nelson gone who made key interceptions and the new DB's drop most pick chances ? I don't know, I'm not an NFL coach. Bengals must be doing something completely wrong on 3rd downs on D to be worst in NFL.

So besides watching if blocking is failing at protecting Dalton , and not blocking for run yards in a game. I'm also going to be watching our Defense on 3rd downs. If that doesn't improve, team can't improve.

What are defenses doing to us on 3rd down that we aren't doing ? What are the other 31 teams doing that we aren't doing ? It's a puzzle the Bengals must solve. They can not remain the worst NFL team on 3rd down defense every year and expect play-offs. They have to be doing something completely wrong, but what is it ?

I do remember Al Davis of Raiders saying the answer to stopping John Elway is keep his butt on the ground. I know the 64 Browns beat Johnny Unitas by not letting him sit in the pocket. Maybe we aren't collapsing the pocket. When Bengals continue to give up more 3rd downs than anybody, there has to be something defense is doing wrong. I know other D's get after Dalton on 3rd down, and good D's sack him or have him throwing out of bounds.

If Chiefs pick up 3rd downs all game, and next week Tampa picks up 3rd downs all game, it will show coaches haven't figured it out.

[The Real Deal]

Linebackers can’t cover and no pressure from Dline.

We may have the worst LB Corp in the league right now. It’s bad.

[StoneTheCrow]

Those numbers will improve. KC may never even need 3rd down.

[Circleville Guy]

(10-20-2018, 02:35 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Those numbers will improve. KC may never even need 3rd down.

Lmao.... good one!

[HarleyDog]

(10-20-2018, 02:35 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Those numbers will improve. KC may never even need 3rd down.

You forgot the ninja. 

[kevin]

(10-20-2018, 02:26 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Linebackers can’t cover and no pressure from Dline.

We may have the worst LB Corp in the league right now. It’s bad.

Sounds like you've been on top of this. 

So with or without Burfict last few years, we stink at LB ?   We picked up this LB from Buffalo suppose to be hot stuff, and with him and Burfict we still stink a LB ?   I just have to wonder if coaches have some weird 3rd down D that never works.  Are they in a prevent ?  Why are they worst in NFL on 3rd down ?   I'm going to guess you give other coaches Burfict and the LB we got from Bills, and they aren't last in NFL on 3rd down.  Now granted, Burfict was suspended 4 games and this Buffalo LB has been injured a lot. 

Still. I got to think Marvin and D coaches fired and hired doing something wrong.  Something is huge wrong with Marvin Lewis defense.  He seems to be the same while other coaches change. We lost Zimmer.  What did Zimmer do on 3rd down we aren't doing ?  Worst in NFL last few years on 3rd down D, something is wrong. Marvin seems to be the constant.  What is wrong with his D ?  I hate to say it, maybe Marvin's not the D Guru they make him out to be, but Zimmer came in a few years here and Zimmer is a D Guru. Maybe the teams Marvin was assistant coach on like Steelers and Ravens, maybe Marvin didn't have that much to do with it. Or maybe the game has changed over 18 years and Marvin hasn't. I don't know. Fact remains Bengals last few years have been worst team on D on 3rd downs. That has to change if team is thinking play-offs.

Bengals are not the worst in NFL on 1st and 2nd down D in NFL. What are they doing wrong on 3rd down ? Are they yelling out the D, telling the QB the D ? For some reason these QB's are reading the D and picking them apart on 3rd down. 3rd and long, how do they give up more 3rd and longs than any of the other 31 NFL teams ? There has to be something Bengals do on 3rd down defense that the other 31 teams laugh at, but what is it ? Something they weren't doing under Zimmer.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-20-2018, 02:50 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: You forgot the ninja. 

They may not even need 2nd down.

[Sweetness]

I think it's also important to note we seem to hardly ever play press coverage and our DBs stand 5 yards off, giving up many short pass completions. This along with our Dline typically getting very little pressure = easy completions and moving of the chains.

[kevin]

(10-20-2018, 03:18 PM)Sweetness Wrote: I think it's also important to note we seem to hardly ever play press coverage and our DBs stand 5 yards off, giving up many short pass completions. This along with our Dline typically getting very little pressure = easy completions and moving of the chains.

I've seen that. I've seen other teams receivers line up, and no Bengals D player near them.  Some of these guys are just wide open on 3rd down, no D player near them.  What the heck formations are they in on 3rd down to just let guys be uncovered, no D player near them.  If that is their 3rd and long prevent, the only thing it is preventing is a Bengals win. 

I have to add, this Austin has been on 3 different Super Bowl teams as a D coach. He has worked under Paterno, Urban Meyer, Mike Holmgren, John Harbaugh. His D at Detroit last year was pretty good. This problem on 3rd down was before Austin. It must be something Marvin does on 3rd down. Whatever it is, quarterbacks see it coming, and pick Marvin's D apart. If it was poker, I would say the QB is seeing the cards in their hand, because QB's are picking up 3rd and long way above the law of averages. It's almost impossible to give up this many 3rd and longs.

We did lose Joseph, then Hall and Nelson, then Jones and IIoka. Maybe we just don't have the cover corners and safeties. That's a shame because Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Jackson were all First Round draft picks. Maybe the problem is this Tobin guy in the draft like a GM without the title. Whatever the problem is, it has to be fixed. They could have a good 2018 season, but only if they can block and tackle better.

There has to be something they can do to improve 3rd and long on D. They should be able to improve in this area during this season. The coaches need to earn their pay on that one.

[KillerGoose]

Austin has a blitz heavy defense that isn’t generating pressure. I’m on my phone so I can’t go digging right now but Cincinnati has one of the worst pressure rates in the league when blitzing, and it shows. There is zero pressure, which leaves our DBs and LBers on an island, which they will typically lose.

Just for reference, Ben was 20-32 for 178 yards and a 78 QB rating when Austin didn’t blitz. When Austin called a blitz, Ben was 12-14 for 184 yards and 142.6 rating.

This defense isn’t built to blitz very well. Our LBers aren’t good pass rushers and when we blitz, it’s more likely to give up a big play than to get a stop.

[*Synric*]

(10-20-2018, 02:26 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Linebackers can’t cover and no pressure from Dline.

We may have the worst LB Corp in the league right now. It’s bad.

And last week was a completely different lineup than week 3 at linebacker.

Fact is the FRONT 7 give up a lot of yards against the run which keeps the down and distance manageable and opens up play action.

If the Bengals want to be better they need to stop the run.

[HarleyDog]

(10-20-2018, 03:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Austin has a blitz heavy defense that isn’t generating pressure. I’m on my phone so I can’t go digging right now but Cincinnati has one of the worst pressure rates in the league when blitzing, and it shows. There is zero pressure, which leaves our DBs and LBers on an island, which they will typically lose.

Just for reference, Ben was 20-32 for 178 yards and a 78 QB rating when Austin didn’t blitz. When Austin called a blitz, Ben was 12-14 for 184 yards and 142.6 rating.

This defense isn’t built to blitz very well. Our LBers aren’t good pass rushers and when we blitz, it’s more likely to give up a big play than to get a stop.

Interesting. However, we have to take into consideration (I'm being serious) the allowable holding and size of Pittsburgh's front line. I would be interested in seeing the stats from other contests. I will agree we are not getting the pressure we should be, but most stats against the steelers are really worthless with the bias in place.

[kevin]

Well, I'm not talking about the Pittsburg game. Bengals have been last in NFL on 3rd down D for a few years now, BEFORE AUSTIN. I hate to say it, the one constant seems to be Marvin. So I'm not at all talking about last week or one game. I'm talking about the last few years of Bengals being worst in NFL on 3rd downs. That needs to be improved just as much as the horrible O Line blocking of the last few years if this team is thinking play-offs.

So we've had our linebackers can't cover. We've had or DB's can't cover. Our D Line can't get in there. The coaches have the players in the wrong 3rd down D formations. I've added, some way, some how, they are telling the quarterback what is coming and all these QB's are reading our D way too easy. I'll go back to the old saying that the only thing our 3rd and long prevent D is preventing is Bengals wins. You would think coaches could fix this thing.

I wish this was just rehashing last weeks game. It's the last few years. The last few years. This thing of being the worst NFL D on 3rd and long has gone on way too long.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

Marvin is a bend but not break type. Always has been. I assume he imposes this on the DC (except Zimmer)

[kevin]

(10-20-2018, 04:19 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Marvin is a bend but not break type. Always has been. I assume he imposes this on the DC (except Zimmer)

Good thought.   

If he is, we sure got sold a bill of goods, because the Super Bowl Ravens on his resume were not a bend but don't break D.  They were a never give up any yards D.  Then again, Ravens had those great DT's, and great LB's, and great DB's when they won that Super Bowl with Marvin as an assistant D coach.

I like you saying ( except Zimmer ). I think most agree that Marvins best D with Bengals was during Zimmer

Since Bengals last few years are worst team on 3rd down D, I would say the Marvin D is a Bend and Break Defense. Marvin needs to go back to the blackboard and change his computer things, because it just isn't working. Not on 3rd down anyway. The team D is not that bad on 1st and 2nd down in NFL, but come 3rd down they are a mess. Often on 3rd and long, so that prevent D has to go. I don't know what kind of prevent they go into, but it doesn't prevent anything.

[*Synric*]

(10-20-2018, 04:19 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Marvin is a bend but not break type. Always has been. I assume he imposes this on the DC (except Zimmer)

I can honestly say that no coach in football from PeeWee to the NFL coaches a " Bend but don't break" defense. 

[J24]

We give up cheap yards on first and second down which leads to easy down and distances on third down. Have to press and force the QB to hang on to the ball to allow the Dline to get there.

[Devils Advocate]

Our LBers are not coverage type LBers. Their body types are all about the same; built to tackle, not to cover.

[kevin]

(10-20-2018, 04:44 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We give up cheap yards on first and second down which leads to easy down and distances on third down. Have to press and force the QB to hang on to the ball to allow the Dline to get there.

Actually, Bengals are worst NFL team on 3rd and longs last few years.  I don't know why they are.  Some have made some good suggestions why. 

[Atomic Orange]

Lines across the league are afraid of attacking the QB hence causing hesitation in everyone's game.

And our LB's aren't that good.

And our coach is new.

And his resume isn't that great.