If GM holding Marvin back, then why has Marvin never left to a better Opportunity/GM?

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-02-2018, 12:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I’d put Marvin in the 3-4 range. Winning record many seasons, many playoff appearances, can’t seem to beat the really good contenders when it matters. Still better than the perennial bottom feeders who always have losing records.


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His overall record is barely above .500

Factor in playoffs and prime time and i don't see how you can put him above 4 and i'd say closer to 5.

[reuben.ahmed]

A bad coach can make a team look worse (I would say if Hue Jackson is our coach we need to consider quitting as fans until he's gone).

[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2018, 01:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: His overall record is barely above .500

Factor in playoffs and prime time and i don't see how you can put him above 4 and i'd say closer to 5.

Well you just said it...overall record is above .500.
.500 is "average". Above that is above average.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2018, 11:04 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It didn't hurt their chances of making the playoffs 5 straight years, or winning games against other winning teams during the regular season.

Yes it did.

And everyone here (including you) agreed with me during those free agency periods.  In fact you were always one of the loudest complainers.

Just because Marvin was able to overcome handicap does not mean it did not exist.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2018, 11:30 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If you've had 15 seasons and you're zero for 7 in playoff chances, where do you fall as a head coach? Go ahead and factor in prime time games and division record.

1. Great
2. Good
3. Above average
4. Average
5. Below average
6. Bad
7. Among the worst

His production is average at least.

Considering he was working under a handicap I would say he is "above average" to "good".

[Bengalholic]

(12-03-2018, 04:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His production is average at least.

Considering he was working under a handicap I would say he is "above average" to "good".

He had a very good 5 year run for which he deserves a lot of credit. Outside of that run, he's struggled to even be mediocre, with only 2 winning seasons in 11 years...and his recent 'production' has been taking a hit for awhile now...having only won 22 of his last 53 games. Hell, he doesn't even have a winning record in the AFC during his tenure.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-03-2018, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it did.

And everyone here (including you) agreed with me during those free agency periods.  In fact you were always one of the loudest complainers.

Just because Marvin was able to overcome handicap does not mean it did not exist.

If you're good enough to win 10+ games, divisions, and beat winning teams during regular season, you shouldn't be 0-7 in the playoffs, with the losses coming by an average of 12.1 points. Even the manner in which we lost points to coaching (being so vastly outscored in the 2nd half). 

And even you have said this:

"When one player underperforms it is a player issue, when every player underperforms then it is a coaching problem."

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Defense-Deep-Dive-Analysis-using-PFF-Ratings?

Nearly every player on this team has underperformed in the playoffs. Dalton. Green. Palmer. Chad. Atkins. Dunlap. Burfict. The blocking has been worse. We can't pass or stop the pass. Can't stop the run. Can't pressure the opposing QB.

If we were losing mostly close games, with the offense and defense playing well, I'd understand your free agency excuse. As it stands, with the fact that we've been mostly getting embarrassed and have NEVER had a good offensive output and only ONE good defensive game, the free agency excuse doesn't hold any water. One big ticket free agent isn't going to magically wash away ALL of those problems.

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2018, 04:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you're good enough to win 10+ games, divisions, and beat winning teams during regular season, you shouldn't be 0-7 in the playoffs, with the losses coming by an average of 12.1 points. Even the manner in which we lost points to coaching (being so vastly outscored in the 2nd half). 

And even you have said this:

"When one player underperforms it is a player issue, when every player underperforms then it is a coaching problem."

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Defense-Deep-Dive-Analysis-using-PFF-Ratings?

Nearly every player on this team has underperformed in the playoffs. Dalton. Green. Palmer. Chad. Atkins. Dunlap. Burfict. The blocking has been worse. We can't pass or stop the pass. Can't stop the run. Can't pressure the opposing QB.

If we were losing mostly close games, with the offense and defense playing well, I'd understand your free agency excuse. As it stands, with the fact that we've been mostly getting embarrassed and have NEVER had a good offensive output and only ONE good defensive game, the free agency excuse doesn't hold any water. One big ticket free agent isn't going to magically wash away ALL of those problems.

We lost by 6 on the road to a 13 win Texans team.

We lost by 2 on a last second FG with our backup QB.

Other than that you are talking about 5 games on Marvin's 257 game record.  It is not like we are getting blown out in every big game ever.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-03-2018, 04:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We lost by 6 on the road to a 13 win Texans team.

We lost by 2 on a last second FG with our backup QB.

Other than that you are talking about 5 games on Marvin's 257 game record.  It is not like we are getting blown out in every big game ever.

The only 2 games out of 7 that were remotely close, and that Steelers game was our only good defensive performance. We've never had an offensive performance that was even remotely close to good. Based on your quote, wouldn't this be a coaching issue? 

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2018, 05:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The only 2 games out of 7 that were remotely close, and that Steelers game was our only good defensive performance. We've never had an offensive performance that was even remotely close to good. Based on your quote, wouldn't this be a coaching issue? 

To be honest I don't know how to explain it.  I don't know if it is a player problem or a coaching problem.

In 2013 we beat the Chargers on their home field during the regular season.  Dalton had 1 int and zero fumbles.  In the playoff loss he had 2 fumbles and 2 ints.  Is that Marvin's fault?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-03-2018, 04:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you're good enough to win 10+ games, divisions, and beat winning teams during regular season, you shouldn't be 0-7 in the playoffs, with the losses coming by an average of 12.1 points. Even the manner in which we lost points to coaching (being so vastly outscored in the 2nd half). 

And even you have said this:

"When one player underperforms it is a player issue, when every player underperforms then it is a coaching problem."

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Defense-Deep-Dive-Analysis-using-PFF-Ratings?

Nearly every player on this team has underperformed in the playoffs. Dalton. Green. Palmer. Chad. Atkins. Dunlap. Burfict. The blocking has been worse. We can't pass or stop the pass. Can't stop the run. Can't pressure the opposing QB.

If we were losing mostly close games, with the offense and defense playing well, I'd understand your free agency excuse. As it stands, with the fact that we've been mostly getting embarrassed and have NEVER had a good offensive output and only ONE good defensive game, the free agency excuse doesn't hold any water. One big ticket free agent isn't going to magically wash away ALL of those problems.

And I think therein lies the dilemma. One of the playoff losses was directly because the team was built with volatile personalities. That's because the Bengals like to take shortcuts and get those troubled former 1st Round picks.

I think each of our rosters has had dramatic holes somewhere in the lineup.

But, we did win 10-11 games and sheer probability dictates out of 7 tries that we'd win 1 or 2 at minimum.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-03-2018, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be honest I don't know how to explain it.  I don't know if it is a player problem or a coaching problem.

In 2013 we beat the Chargers on their home field during the regular season.  Dalton had 1 int and zero fumbles.  In the playoff loss he had 2 fumbles and 2 ints.  Is that Marvin's fault?

This is a deep rabbit hole to climb into, and that's why most people just look at the 0-7 record and say "welp, must be the coach". You could look at each individual game and select some players to pin blame on. Or you could look at the trend, and say it looks like a deeper (coaching) problem. 

Why did Dalton suddenly suck in the playoffs when he's been clutch in regular season and at TCU?
Why did Palmer have a 58.3 rating against the Jets (easily his worst rating in a game that mattered that season)
Why have guys like Atkins and Dunlap disappeared? 
Why did Benson have only 14 yards on 7 carries with a crucial drop vs Houston?
Why did Hill get outperformed by 4th stringer Dan Herron in 2014 (Hill's best year)?
Why did Chad only have 6 catches for 89 yards and 0 TD's in 2 playoff games?
Why did McCarron have his worst rating of his 4 starts (by far)?
Why has the o-line allowed 21 sacks in only 7 playoff games (48 sack pace for full season)?

Why are we talking about playoffs when this team is headed for a 3rd straight losing season?

Just like you said, when everyone is underperforming, it points to a coaching problem.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-03-2018, 05:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And I think therein lies the dilemma. One of the playoff losses was directly because the team was built with volatile personalities. That's because the Bengals like to take shortcuts and get those troubled former 1st Round picks.

I think each of our rosters has had dramatic holes somewhere in the lineup.

But, we did win 10-11 games and sheer probability dictates out of 7 tries that we'd win 1 or 2 at minimum.

That's the thing. We're not talking about winning a Super Bowl here. Teams with holes still win playoff games every year. 

Out of 7 tries, we've always (or mostly) had 1 glaring hole that kept us from winning a playoff game, but didn't stop us from winning 10+ games?

I would buy the holes theory more if the entire team didn't look like ass, and it was just the LB's. Or just the QB.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-03-2018, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it did.

And everyone here (including you) agreed with me during those free agency periods.  In fact you were always one of the loudest complainers.

Just because Marvin was able to overcome handicap does not mean it did not exist.

When you say i've been one of the loudest complainers, the rest of your...well, all of...your argument is invalid. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-03-2018, 04:22 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: He had a very good 5 year run for which he deserves a lot of credit. Outside of that run, he's struggled to even be mediocre, with only 2 winning seasons in 11 years...and his recent 'production' has been taking a hit for awhile now...having only won 22 of his last 53 games. Hell, he doesn't even have a winning record in the AFC during his tenure.

There's no way you can defend Marvin's record in the playoffs, against the Steelers, in prime time, and over the last 2 and 3/4 seasons. Hell he should have stumbled into a couple playoff wins by now.

Marvin's time has come and gone. Quite some time ago.

[N_B]

(12-03-2018, 07:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That's the thing. We're not talking about winning a Super Bowl here. Teams with holes still win playoff games every year. 

Out of 7 tries, we've always (or mostly) had 1 glaring hole that kept us from winning a playoff game, but didn't stop us from winning 10+ games?

I would buy the holes theory more if the entire team didn't look like ass, and it was just the LB's. Or just the QB.

It’s useless to bring this up. You’re right when you say it, but people for some reason can’t understand basic statistics