How long will it take...
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How long will it take...
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09-07-2015, 03:56 PM
...before the Reds are contenders again?
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
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09-07-2015, 11:57 PM
(09-07-2015, 03:56 PM)McC Wrote: ...before the Reds are contenders again? 2018 would be my guess. Just too many good teams in the Central for them to compete with a weaker roster. With a year or two of starts for the young arms to take their lumps, they might be able to have a pretty good finished product with the rotation by then. They need time to decide who starts and who goes to the pen, and then let the young arms get some experience in the bigs. With any luck, this stinker of a season will provide them with some draft picks that can be MLB ready in a couple of years. They still need some offensive guys in the system to step in for guys they are declining and or leaving in the next few years. 
09-08-2015, 02:19 PM
2016
CF...Hamilton 3B...Suarez 1B...Votto* LF...Frazier RF...Bruce* C.....Mesoraco SS...Cozart 2B...Phillips SP...Bailey SP...Iglasias SP...DeScalfani SP...Cingrani* SP...Lamb RP...Chapman* RP...Parra* RP...Finnegan* RP...Hoover RP...Lorenzen RP...Diaz RP...LeCure
09-08-2015, 05:45 PM
(09-08-2015, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2016 Couple questions...What happens if Mes can't catch any more? The last I heard, that was a very real possibility. Also, what the heck happened to Cingrani? I haven't even heard his name mentioned in a long time.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
http://www.reverbnation.com/leftyohio singersongwriterrocknroll
09-08-2015, 10:28 PM
(09-07-2015, 11:57 PM)samhain Wrote: 2018 would be my guess. Just too many good teams in the Central for them to compete with a weaker roster. Pretty much agree with this. ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png) 
09-09-2015, 12:47 PM
(09-08-2015, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2016 Meanwhile, Skip will still be used as our "best" bench option. or any other Cardinal that gets released. The issue is lack of depth. That takes a little time to bring in and develop.
09-09-2015, 12:49 PM
I say 2017 season they should start to contend. Gives these young pitchers time to develop (especially the Pen), and bring in a solid bench for once... Heck, maybe we even address left field?
09-09-2015, 06:10 PM
(09-08-2015, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2016 I would bet money this is not the 2016 roster.....Changes are a comin'.........and yes, doctors say Mesoraco may not be able to be a catcher anymore, unable to squat all game, game after game of a 162 game season, due to the injury and surgery. ....If he can't catch, either a trade to AL as DH or first base because Reds decided trying him in left didn't work. Most catchers can play first. ....Oh, we have Votto, and we have his extra huge salary. It would be great to get out from under that salary.....I like Phillips, but he may not be considered the future in a rebuilding mode....Bruce had a rough year, and he gets a big pay check....I see this has All-Star third baseman Frazier in left so we can get Cozart and Suarez both in the line-up, and that makes little sense to me in the long range plans. I would leave the All-Star at third and one of these shortstops would be gone, unless one S.S. can be a Super Sub at many positions for a low price tag. .....and the manager has not done much to deserve being back..... If this is the team in 2016, the Reds will be in last place again in 2016......Changes are needed to avoid another last place finish and start this team in the right direction. Just as we had to get rid of Griffey Jr and Larkin retire and get rid of Casey and Dunn and EE and other Fan Favorites to get out of last place and have money to rebuild into a play-off team. The Reds can't stand pat...after the World Series and before New Years Eve, the Reds need to swing some moves. Votto is batting around .300 ( without the 40 homer power of MVP year ), and some team may be interested in his .300 BA......if so, trade him. ....We had to get rid of fan favorites to get back in the play-offs, and it's time to dump payroll again and rebuild to get back in the play-offs in the future, whenever that is. I would like to say play-offs in 2016, but going from last to first is tough....and they won't go from last to first rolling out the same team that experts were correct in predicting last place in 2015. ....and you can bet the owner and GM want to make some moves, unless the owner dumps the GM also as one of his moves.....but I think changes are coming. Cueto and Leake was just the start of the purge and player moves. I will say, the longer this small market team stays with some of these high priced players in last place, the longer this team will delay the rebuilding back to play-offs. So when do the Reds get back to the play-offs, that begins with the owner, and I like the owner. He does a lot of things right and I look for him to trade and free agent and draft pick his way back to the top in as short of years as it takes.....Remember the old baseball saying : If we can finish in last place with you, we can finish no worse than last place without you. ......As a Reds Fan, I don't want the 2015 Reds back in 2016, these guys are awful. Some players are young and have a future, but these veterans need to go, taking their last place play elsewhere so Reds can free up payroll and rebuild. In spite of Homer Bailey 2 no hitters, his career has been up and down, a lot of down. ....Reds need to trade and player move because experts predicted last place for Reds before the injuries, and sad to say the experts were right. We can not bring pretty much the same last place players all back, and expect anything but last place and delaying rebuilding one more year. For manager, I would make Reds third base coach that use to manage Washington the manager...or give Barry Larkin or Eric Davis a chance...but I would not bring Price back, who has finished around last in his 2 years as manager. Poor Tony Perez only got a few weeks as a manager before getting fired. Price has had his chance here. The team can't bunt, can't run the bases, can't hit the cut off man, and that's poor managing....Sparky Anderson managed 4 pennant winners in 4 years in the minors before he was hired as Reds manager, so is there anybody that has won a lot in the minors lately ???? Somebody to eliminate all the bonehead plays. You lay down the bunts and hit the cut off man, and it's amazing how you cut down on giving away ball games.
1968 Bengal Fan
09-11-2015, 12:41 PM
(09-09-2015, 06:10 PM)kevin Wrote: .Oh, we have Votto, and we have his extra huge salary. It would be great to get out from under that salary..... It would be insane to trade Votto. He is the ONLY elite offensive plauyer we havce and we have no one waiting to replace him. Votto is currently 2nd in the majors in on base percentage, 7th in slugging percentage, and second in OPS (slugging + on-base). If you want to win you need to hold on tight when you get one of the very best players in the league on your team.
09-13-2015, 10:25 PM
(09-11-2015, 12:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It would be insane to trade Votto. He is the ONLY elite offensive plauyer we havce and we have no one waiting to replace him. So before, we couldn't get out from under his big salary because he was injured or not hitting....and now that he is hitting, he is to great to trade....Catch 22......If he's not hitting we can't trade him, and if he is hitting we can't trade him......This team has been around last place 2 straight years and if it brings back pretty much the same players in 2016, it will be 3 straight years around last place. ....The Reds are a small market team in last place and Votto is the highest paid player. ....To rebuild this team and get out of last place, fan favorites will have to be dumped/ unloaded/ traded/ released....just as when it was time to get rid of Griffey Jr and Dunn, both who the Reds held on to way too long as they floundered in last place. You have the deep pocket Yankees....then you have the other big market teams....then you have small market teams such as Cincinnati. .....A small market team must have good managers and a good farm system and grow their own talent. The focus must be on pitching and defense because that wins a lot of games. You can get lower paid players to play solid fundamentals on defense. The 1970's Reds will never happen again in Cincinnati due to free agency. A big salary in the Big Red Machine era was one hundred thousand and only a few major league players made that much. Then it became one million. Now it is millions on millions. This hurts the small market teams and helps a New York City....Still, with good managers and coaches and a good farm system, teams can develop their own talent and make the play-offs with pitching and defense. The problem is if a player becomes an MVP or CY Young and wants the millions on millions, the small market team is better off letting them go to a team like the Yankees and stick with coaching, farm system, pitching and defense. ....In the end, it is a business. We can't expect Castallini to lose money on this thing. The team is in last place. It was around last place last year. It will be around last place next year without some player moves. ...Being a small market city like Cincinnati, the owner may have to dump payroll to have money to invest into the future of this franchise....Which is why I like NFL more than MLB, because at least NFL has more profit sharing and baseball is The Yankees of big money and everybody else then down the line with the Reds more near the bottom in money than the top. So the Reds are going to be forced to trade or let go of players once they want the big bucks, because the Reds will win more if they divide up their money to have the best 25 man roster they can, and not a couple high priced guys and the rest of the team full of last place players. The Reds have some very good coaches and managers in the farm system such as Tom Browning. From Dayton on up, they have coaches and managers due for being moved up the ladder. The Reds have good talent in the minors and are adding to it always. One coach for the Reds is that ex catcher Corky Miller. Some of the best managers have been catchers and that makes sense because of the pitching and defense. Corky may just rise out of the minors as a good major league manager or coach. ...So for the small market Reds, the real future is in keeping the farm system solid, and for the major league Reds to have solid defense and solid pitching and try to avoid the very high priced players so they can have a better 25 man roster. ( not putting their eggs all in one basket, or one player ).....and, a small market team like the Reds better be able to lay down a bunt when the manager calls for a bunt. The failure to do things like bunt is what is keeping the Reds in last place.....Small market has to be more about sacrifice and team play, and less about high priced super stars. This isn't the 1970's and that era is over for Cincy. Joe Madden showed what stressing fundamentals could win at Tampa and now with Cubs. Small market teams that sit back and wait for home runs will finish in last for sure. Now Castallini may have no plans to unload Votto, but I would understand it if he can and does. I do look for some players to not be here in April. If they can finish in last with them, they can finish no worse than last without them. Maybe freeing up some money will benefit the franchise in the long run. I am a Reds fan, but a fan of them in the play-off hunt.....I thought the Ken Griffey Jr home run numbers on the smokestacks with Reds in last place was very boring.....no individual stat is better than being in the play-off picture......If Mesoraco can't catch after this surgery as doctors have predicted, he would need to play other than catcher. Before we trade him to the AL to DH, he is young enough and lower paid than Votto and first base would be the logical position for him. This may not happen, but the Reds in last place need to make some moves, even if trading fan favorites.
1968 Bengal Fan
09-15-2015, 11:46 AM
(09-13-2015, 10:25 PM)kevin Wrote: If they can finish in last with them, they can finish no worse than last without them. This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. There is no logic to it at all. You can not judge how good a player is by how many games his team wins. If you want the Reds to win you are going to have to have some great players. And if you want great players you have to pay them. It seems to me that you are advocating for the Reds to become a farm team for the organizations that have a lot of money. Develop talent, but never pay to keep it. just let all of our best players sign with good teams as soom as they are eligible. 
09-18-2015, 12:08 PM
(09-08-2015, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2016 Why would we move Todd for Eugenio when we haven't seen if Eugenio can make it in LF?
09-18-2015, 12:13 PM
(09-18-2015, 12:08 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Why would we move Todd for Eugenio when we haven't seen if Eugenio can make it in LF? This is a valid question. I don't really care where they play. All I know is that Price has said that he sees both Cozart and Suarez as "regulars" next year, and I know Cozart is by far the better defensive shortstop. 
10-07-2015, 11:13 PM
2017 at the earliest, probably more like 2018. They're going to have to go into total rebuilding mode. The anchors dragging this team down like Votto, Bruce, etc. have to go.
10-08-2015, 09:11 AM
10-08-2015, 10:09 AM
(10-08-2015, 09:11 AM)nevergonnachange Wrote: How is Votto dragging the team down? The core of this team is broken, the chemistry just isn't there ! They need to reboot and start over. A couple moves out on the fringe isn't going to change anything.
10-08-2015, 03:05 PM
(10-08-2015, 10:09 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The core of this team is broken, the chemistry just isn't there ! They need to reboot and start over. A couple moves out on the fringe isn't going to change anything. They really messed up by gutting the core of their team for 3 years of latos and a year of Choo. Grandal and Gregorius emerged as everyday/ platoon starters this year on playoff teams. Boxberger collected 41 saves. Alonso was hampered by injuries again but put OPS/OPS+ numbers virtually identical to Grandal’s Boesch, Schumaker, Bourgeois, Negron, and LaMarre put up a combined -4.0 WAR for around $4M. Bruce put up .1 WAR for $12.5M; Pena .3 WAR for $1.5M; Phillips 2.6 WAR for $13M; and Byrd .1 WAR for about $3M. Together that’s -.9WAR for $34M. You should be able to get that level of production our of 4 regulars and 5 part timers for less than $5M. I’m way more worried about that than I am getting 7.4 WAR from Votto at $14M, or $20M or heck, even $34M. So they drastically overpay for utility players and hang on to them way to long. They also have very little depth in the minor leagues. Winker is the only prospect worth writing home about.
10-09-2015, 08:35 AM
(10-08-2015, 03:05 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: They really messed up by gutting the core of their team for 3 years of latos and a year of Choo. Grandal and Gregorius emerged as everyday/ platoon starters this year on playoff teams. Boxberger collected 41 saves. Alonso was hampered by injuries again but put OPS/OPS+ numbers virtually identical to Grandal’s To be fair, some of this is 20/20 hindsight. Choo looked to be exactly what the team was missing and if everything went according to plan, we'd be discussing the World Series championship we had in 2013 and how it was worth the down years we're having now. Grandal and Alonso were surplus to requirements since they had Mesoroco and Votto. I give the team credit, they went all in; they failed but they tried. If they would have stood pat, kept all their prospects and had the same results, people would be complaining that they were too passive. 
10-10-2015, 02:21 PM
(10-07-2015, 11:13 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: 2017 at the earliest, probably more like 2018. They're going to have to go into total rebuilding mode. The anchors dragging this team down like Votto, Bruce, etc. have to go. *sigh* stop this nonsense. Saying Votto is part of the problem with the Reds is like saying sex with Kate Upton would ruin your weekend.
10-10-2015, 06:39 PM
(10-08-2015, 10:09 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The core of this team is broken, the chemistry just isn't there ! They need to reboot and start over. A couple moves out on the fringe isn't going to change anything. So that means we should get rid of the only elite player we have? Where are we supposed to get another player as good as Votto? Change just for the sake of changes is ridiculous. |
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