I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2019, 09:44 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Kenny Anderson has his best season in year 11 so...............

.....and what happened when Anderson suddenly "burst on the scene" after year 9?  I wonder........I wonder......



They didn't switch head coaches did they?

[Earendil]

(01-31-2019, 10:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: You're exactly right.  I read an article about him the other day that summed it up perfectly.  He's solid.  You can do a helluva lot worse than solid, and you can do better.  I get criticizing bad performances and the like, but I don't understand the outright hate some have for the guy.  He's been one of the franchise's all time greats, whether people like it or not.

I think for some people, it's frustration with the Marvin era.  For better or worse he reflected Marvin in a lot of ways.

Then again, it could just be the red hair...

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-31-2019, 12:15 PM)Earendil Wrote: I think for some people, it's frustration with the Marvin era.  For better or worse he reflected Marvin in a lot of ways.

Then again, it could just be the red hair...

To me it’s the dump off passes when it’s 3 n 15 n we are trailing the Chiefs 30 to 3. Only to lose 45 to 10. But hey he had a decent QB rating that game. To me that’s the difference in our QB. When it’s 3rd n 10 you figure he will dump it off or throw it out of bounds , Brady you can expect he stands in the pocket n delivers again n again.

The Chiefs had Alex Smith at QB they figured he’s taken them as far as he can and they moved up and drafted Mahones. I believe Dalton has taken us as far as he can and we need to draft his replacement soon.

[Atomic Orange]

(01-31-2019, 10:53 AM)Wyche Wrote:  but I don't understand the outright hate some have for the guy.  He's been one of the franchise's all time greats, whether people like it or not.

It really is the red hair.

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/why-do-people-hate-redheads

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-31-2019, 02:47 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well change is a coming and one thing I have learned watching Dalton is he will continue to work hard, do what the coaches ask of him since he is a professional and continue to be a great leader on the field and in the locker room. very excited about this upcoming season for him.. just hope we can improve the line and keep healthy... if we do those two things we will be in the hunt for Division and a run in playoffs

No doubt. Solid, hard working accurate QB that is also a leader. This is what we have and lots of teams would love to have this.

(01-31-2019, 10:44 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote:  

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/643144-andy-dalton-2011-nfl-draft-scouting-report



And that is repeated on every report you read on the guy.

Yes, accuracy on the deep balls can sometimes be off but he is one of the most accurate Post and Slot route QB's in the NFL.

(01-31-2019, 10:47 AM)Earendil Wrote: Sometimes, people have deeply entrenched ideas that they get so hung up on, no amount of convincing will ever change their minds.  I think that is the case with most people who don't like Dalton.  He's not Joe Montana, but he's not Ryan Leaf either.

Nice post Earnendil. Too much emotion makes people exaggerate.

(01-31-2019, 10:49 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Right, I don't know where this leadership bullshit comes from.  People need to listen to AJ Green sometimes.  Sure, he doesn't have the rocket arm, and that leads to some missed deep throws, but he's accurate overall, and leads by example and calming guys down in the huddle.

I get people don't like the guy, for whatever reason, but don't just make shit up, or parrot other bullshit you've read on here.  The sources and the numbers just don't back it up.

Spot on Wyche, no need to make shit up and parrot it like it is gospel.

We know what we have in Dalton so far and who knows how much better he could get under an offensive minded coach?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-31-2019, 12:34 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: To me it’s the dump off passes when it’s 3 n 15 n we are trailing the Chiefs 30 to 3. Only to lose 45 to 10. But hey he had a decent QB rating that game. To me that’s the difference in our QB. When it’s 3rd n 10 you figure he will dump it off or throw it out of bounds , Brady you can expect he stands in the pocket n delivers again n again.

The Chiefs had Alex Smith at QB they figured he’s taken them as far as he can and they moved up and drafted Mahones. I believe Dalton has taken us as far as he can and we need to draft his replacement soon.

How much of this is on playcalling and the fact Marv always liked to play it safe though?

Who knows if Dalton suddenly turns crazy aggressive under an offensive minded coach. The slate is wiped clean man.

Lets judge Dalton from here on out under Taylor and Callahan.

[HuDey]

It’s not the red hair any more for the detractors than it is for the supporters.

Our reasons for believing that he can’t get it done are just as valid as yours for believing that he can. We probably get at least one more season to see if Dalton can be something that we haven’t seen....I hope he proves me wrong.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2019, 12:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Spot on Wyche, no need to make shit up and parrot it like it is gospel.

We know what we have in Dalton so far and who knows how much better he could get under an offensive minded coach?

Maybe he will, maybe he won't....we're about to find out.

I remember on the old boards, dude could hit over 65% of his throws, hit 2 or more TDs with no INTs, be around or above 300 yds, we won the game, and people would nitpick every single incompletion.  I just don't get it.  WAY over the top.

[sandwedge]

(01-31-2019, 01:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe he will, maybe he won't....we're about to find out.

I remember on the old boards, dude could hit over 65% of his throws, hit 2 or more TDs with no INTs, be around or above 300 yds, we won the game, and people would nitpick every single incompletion.  I just don't get it.  WAY over the top.

That is why when the old board went done, I disappeared for a couple of years. The guy couldn't catch a break. He'd have 5 really good games and then throw an int, and he was back to "inconsistent Andy"... It was embarrassing as a fan to watch douchebags hanging their banners off the I-75 bridge telling MB to get rid of him...

[sandwedge]

(01-31-2019, 12:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: How much of this is on playcalling and the fact Marv always liked to play it safe though?

Who knows if Dalton suddenly turns crazy aggressive under an offensive minded coach. The slate is wiped clean man.

Lets judge Dalton from here on out under Taylor and Callahan.

Great post Nate!

[sandwedge]

(01-31-2019, 10:49 AM)Wyche Wrote: Right, I don't know where this leadership bullshit comes from.  People need to listen to AJ Green sometimes.  Sure, he doesn't have the rocket arm, and that leads to some missed deep throws, but he's accurate overall, and leads by example and calming guys down in the huddle.

I get people don't like the guy, for whatever reason, but don't just make shit up, or parrot other bullshit you've read on here.  The sources and the numbers just don't back it up.

People think leadership is the loudest guy. The guy that comes out of the tunnel bouncing up and down, whooping everybody up into frenzy. That's a cheerleader, not the guy that is going to lead during the actual game.

[BengalChris]

(01-31-2019, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....and what happened when Anderson suddenly "burst on the scene" after year 9?  I wonder........I wonder......



They didn't switch head coaches did they?

It wasn't like that. Anderson had two passing titles by the time he was in the league 5 years. And at that point there was only 1 wild card team and 3 division champs who made the playoffs. It was much more difficult to make the post season back then.


And even then Anderson was crucified by fans when he had a bad game. I remember it well. In his MVP year he was removed midway through the first game.


I am hard on Dalton, but doesn't include any hate at all. Mentioning his playoffs stats is not hate, it's just stating the stats of the most important games. They are what they are.

I do object to people elevating him above Anderson or Boomer as today's era has made offense and the passing game so much easier. Most of Anderson's passing yards came in an era when receivers could be mugged all the way down the field. Comparing yards from today to yards of yesteryear is like comparing people's pay today with the number of dollars they made 40 years ago. The basis is way off, the yards are inflated.

If you want to talk playoff appearances, 3 of Dalton's 4 would not have occurred in the 70s or 80s as there was no 6th seed until 1990. Just to put things in perspective.

What I do like about Dalton is that he's team player, he does play pretty well generally. That's a lot more than I can say for guys like RG III, Krapernick and others.

[fredtoast]

(01-31-2019, 02:35 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I do object to people elevating him above Anderson or Boomer as today's era has made offense and the passing game so much easier. Most of Anderson's passing yards came in an era when receivers could be mugged all the way down the field. Comparing yards from today to yards of yesteryear is like comparing people's pay today with the number of dollars they made 40 years ago. The basis is way off, the yards are inflated.

Kind of OT, but something a lot of people don't realize.

Most people think that passing numbers have been going up constantly since the start of the league, but that is not true.  The absolute low point for passing was in the early 70's when Anderson entered the league.  Both passing yards per game and passer rating were considerably higher in the early 60's than in the early 70's.

1971 was Anderson's rookie season.  That year NFL teams averaged 155 passing yards per game, 15 tds per year, and a rating of 62.2.  Ten years earlier in 1961 NFL teams averaged 181 passing yards per game, 20 tds per season and a rating of 68.5.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2019, 02:35 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It wasn't like that. Anderson had two passing titles by the time he was in the league 5 years. And at that point there was only 1 wild card team and 3 division champs who made the playoffs. It was much more difficult to make the post season back then.


And even then Anderson was crucified by fans when he had a bad game. I remember it well. In his MVP year he was removed midway through the first game.


I am hard on Dalton, but doesn't include any hate at all. Mentioning his playoffs stats is not hate, it's just stating the stats of the most important games. They are what they are.

I do object to people elevating him above Anderson or Boomer as today's era has made offense and the passing game so much easier. Most of Anderson's passing yards came in an era when receivers could be mugged all the way down the field. Comparing yards from today to yards of yesteryear is like comparing people's pay today with the number of dollars they made 40 years ago. The basis is way off, the yards are inflated.

If you want to talk playoff appearances, 3 of Dalton's 4 would not have occurred in the 70s or 80s as there was no 6th seed until 1990. Just to put things in perspective.

What I do like about Dalton is that he's team player, he does play pretty well generally. That's a lot more than I can say for guys like RG III, Krapernick and others.

All true, and I didn't consider the non playoff years in my very generalized post.  However, it is widely accepted that Gregg came in and cleaned up a bad culture.  I wasn't around in Kenny's early days.

There are plenty of guys like you that are objective about Andy, I hope you know I wasn't directing at you, or anyone else that looks at the situation like that.  I hope I've at least conveyed that to you in our numerous discussions on him.  I look at him objectively too, I feel anyways.  No one is disputing the postseason numbers....how could you?  I'm certainly not saying he's Kenny or Boomer, trust me.

Now, if this new staff comes in and cleans up the drive killing penalties and lack of discipline by others, and Dalton flourishes, and even wins a playoff game or two, then I think ya gotta give the man his due.  If he sinks, then we'll know it was partially him and partially Marvin that led to our demise in the playoffs so often.  Personally, I don't feel the team had what it took to even be in the playoffs in '11, but damned if they didn't make it in anyway.  I feel like Marvin just tightened up when the pressure was on for whatever reason, and his team reflected that.  Excited to see of the new regime can change that.

[fredtoast]

(01-31-2019, 03:59 PM)Wyche Wrote:  No one is disputing the postseason numbers....how could you?  I'm certainly not saying he's Kenny or Boomer, trust me.

Looking at postseason numbers not much difference between Boomer's first four games and Daltons

Andy..... 218 yd/gm….. 57.8 rating
Boomer. 124 yd/gm….. 66.4 rating

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2019, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Looking at postseason numbers not much difference between Boomer's first four games and Daltons

Andy..... 218 yd/gm….. 57.8 rating
Boomer. 124 yd/gm….. 66.4 rating

Interesting.  Boomer did injure his shoulder late in the season, and may have had some bearing on it, but not wow numbers at any rate.  The Bengals were able to run it down people's throats in '88.  Not so much the case over the last 7 runs....despite Benson's solid effort in '09.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-31-2019, 03:59 PM)Wyche Wrote: Al
Now, if this new staff comes in and cleans up the drive killing penalties and lack of discipline by others, and Dalton flourishes, and even wins a playoff game or two, then I think ya gotta give the man his due.  If he sinks, then we'll know it was partially him and partially Marvin that led to our demise in the playoffs so often.  Personally, I don't feel the team had what it took to even be in the playoffs in '11, but damned if they didn't make it in anyway.  I feel like Marvin just tightened up when the pressure was on for whatever reason, and his team reflected that.  Excited to see of the new regime can change that.

Bingo !

I believe this is a large part of it. I heard some analyst's talking about darth hoodie the other day and they hit on that as one of the key underlying points that makes him great. He's as cool as a cucumber whether it's 5 minutes to go down 10 in the championship game o it's the first game in September. There's no wavering, no panic, business as usual from beginning to end !

Marvin got the deer in the headlights look anytime he saw the lights, the piss and black uniforms, playoffs and so on and the team reflected that.

[BengalChris]

(01-31-2019, 03:59 PM)Wyche Wrote: All true, and I didn't consider the non playoff years in my very generalized post.  However, it is widely accepted that Gregg came in and cleaned up a bad culture.  I wasn't around in Kenny's early days.

There are plenty of guys like you that are objective about Andy, I hope you know I wasn't directing at you, or anyone else that looks at the situation like that.  I hope I've at least conveyed that to you in our numerous discussions on him.  I look at him objectively too, I feel anyways.  No one is disputing the postseason numbers....how could you?  I'm certainly not saying he's Kenny or Boomer, trust me.

Now, if this new staff comes in and cleans up the drive killing penalties and lack of discipline by others, and Dalton flourishes, and even wins a playoff game or two, then I think ya gotta give the man his due.  If he sinks, then we'll know it was partially him and partially Marvin that led to our demise in the playoffs so often.  Personally, I don't feel the team had what it took to even be in the playoffs in '11, but damned if they didn't make it in anyway.  I feel like Marvin just tightened up when the pressure was on for whatever reason, and his team reflected that.  Excited to see of the new regime can change that.

I don't feel like anything you said earlier was directed at me. Some times I get the "you are hating on Andy" comments, but it's generally when I point out the 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in 4 playoff games.

If the new staff gets things cleaned up and Andy puts together good "big" games then I will certainly give him his due. You can hold me to that.

I also feel Marvin was a problem come the post season.

I hope Dalton does well this season. I hope Bengals do well. I do believe this will be his chance to shine. But it does need to materialize.

[BengalChris]

(01-31-2019, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Looking at postseason numbers not much difference between Boomer's first four games and Daltons

Andy..... 218 yd/gm….. 57.8 rating
Boomer. 124 yd/gm….. 66.4 rating

Boomer didn't throw 6 INTs in those 4 games, plus he won, which counts for quite a bit. In 88, going into the Buffalo game, the Bengals ran against Buffalo's nickel defense and ran well.

It is true that 66.4 is on the low side. But 57.8 is significantly lower.

[fredtoast]

(01-31-2019, 07:25 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Boomer didn't throw 6 INTs in those 4 games, plus he won, which counts for quite a bit.

The Bengals won in spite of Boomer.  In '88 they beat Seattle when Boomer was 7-19 for 108 yards 0 tds and 2 fumbles.

There is really nothing that can be said to defend Andy's playoff performances, but it is only 4 games.  There are plenty of examples of QBs who struggled for a few games in the post season and then played great.  To me the fact that he ould not win a playoff game in the first 4 seasons of his career does not mean he can never win one.