Good call #TeamJackDelRio

[*Synric*]

(01-25-2019, 08:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you ask me, they're all just "flavors of the month".  The best defense is the one that your team can execute to perfection, with the personnel that you have on hand.

Sure, stunts and blitzes are great, so long as you can stop a team in base on 1st and 2nd down, and only have to pull those tricks out on 3rd or critical downs.  Otherwise, you look like the Bengals the past three seasons, pulling out all the stuff on 1st and 2nd down, and then standing their holding their jocks, as they get beat on 3rd down..

Point is you dont get the interior pass rush from a 2 gap front as you do from a single gap. That is why the 34 single gap is gaining popularity.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-25-2019, 08:55 PM)Synric Wrote: Point is you dont get the interior pass rush from a 2 gap front as you do from a single gap. That is why the 34 single gap is gaining popularity.

Sure you do, unless you're blitzing a backer, and that DL must drop to cover.  For example, I would think that a player like Geno Atkins would be no less effective playing head up on a Guard, as opposed to shading to his outside shoulder.  If anything, the Guard has more to worry about, as he doesn't know which side he's going to get beat on.

[*Synric*]

(01-25-2019, 09:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sure you do, unless you're blitzing a backer, and that DL must drop to cover.  For example, I would think that a player like Geno Atkins would be no less effective playing head up on a Guard, as opposed to shading to his outside shoulder.  If anything, the Guard has more to worry about, as he doesn't know which side he's going to get beat on.

Wrong. It gives the 3 tech leverage.

Edit: And what your describing is a 34 single gap front allowing the end to penetrate. In a 2 gap the that defensive end MUST take on that block every snap.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-25-2019, 09:11 PM)Synric Wrote: Wrong. It gives the 3 tech leverage.

You do realize that in a 4-3 using 2-gap, not all the DL are 2-gap at the same time, right?  It's a situational thing, typically used in conjunction with a blitz.  From what you've been saying so far, I think that we're talking about two entirely different things.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-25-2019, 09:11 PM)Synric Wrote: Wrong. It gives the 3 tech leverage.

Edit: And what your describing is a 34 single gap front allowing the end to penetrate. In a 2 gap the that defensive end MUST take on that block every snap.

No, not talking about 34 single gap, at all.  I made sure that I took a good look at both, before engaging in this conversation.  There is no such thing as a pure "2-gap 4-3 defense", that is a myth.  It's a situational application to a base 4-3, a hybrid, if you will.

[*Synric*]

(01-25-2019, 09:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You do realize that in a 4-3 using 2-gap, not all the DL are 2-gap at the same time, right?  It's a situational thing, typically used in conjunction with a blitz.  From what you've been saying so far, I think that we're talking about two entirely different things.

You are hampering Geno Atkins as a penetrating defensive lineman in a 2 gap front because it forces him to take on blockers more than penetrating...

That is literally the difference between single and 2 gap. The defensive line first and foremost takes on the block reads the play and chooses a gap. In a single gap they just penetrate.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-25-2019, 06:44 PM)Okeana Wrote: I would actually prefer us switching to a 3-4 hybrid than a 4-3 2 gap.  I'm not sure why everyone considers JDR a defensive prodigy looking back on his career I see nothing that really stands out to me.

4 years as a Defensive Coordinator
3 of those defenses finished top 3 in yards
2 of them were top 5 in points allowed
They all finished no worse than 16th in take aways
One of those defenses made it to the Super Bowl (held the Patriots to 16 points and 320 yards in the AFC title game)

That's about as sparkling as a resume gets in only 4 years. Heck, his showings as a DC are what got him 2 different HC jobs.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-25-2019, 09:32 PM)Synric Wrote: You are hampering Geno Atkins as a penetrating defensive lineman in a 2 gap front because it forces him to take on blockers more than penetrating...

That is literally the difference between single and 2 gap. The defensive line first and foremost takes on the block reads the play and chooses a gap. In a single gap they just penetrate.

Yes, but...  They are all not 2-gap every down, only depending on what selected defensive play is called.  So, in the big picture, Geno would likely be playing a 2-gap no more than he's typically used to, over the course of a season.

[Okeana]

(01-25-2019, 09:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4 years as a Defensive Coordinator
3 of those defenses finished top 3 in yards
2 of them were top 5 in points allowed
They all finished no worse than 16th in take aways
One of those defenses made it to the Super Bowl (held the Patriots to 16 points and 320 yards in the AFC title game)

That's about as sparkling as a resume gets in only 4 years. Heck, his showings as a DC are what got him 2 different HC jobs.

Uh he was the head coach of raiders in 2016 it was wade philips and his 3-4 they put in place in 2015

[Okeana]

When he took over panthers defense in 2002 they went from top five to getting progressively worse every season and dropped to 20 range. He had two years at Denver ranked in 15-20 range as soon as wade philips took over they were top 5. Not super impressed

[Bengalholic]

(01-25-2019, 11:27 PM)Okeana Wrote: When he took over panthers defense in 2002 they went from top five to getting progressively worse every season and dropped to 20 range.  He had two years at Denver ranked in 15-20 range as soon as wade philips took over they were top 5.  Not super impressed

He was only Carolina's DC for that one year and they were 2nd ranked, so why is he responsible for what happened after he left?

In his 3 years as Denver's DC, his defenses were ranked top 3 twice. How does Phillips following with a good defense discount that?

[Okeana]

(01-25-2019, 11:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: He was only Carolina's DC for that one year and they were 2nd ranked, so why is he responsible for what happened after he left?

In his 3 years as Denver's DC, his defenses were ranked top 3 twice. How does Phillips following with a good defense discount that?

You’re right there I’m pulling stats on cell phone so basically he had 1 good year out of the 3 he was dc. Don’t get me wrong I think he was better than Vance Joseph but people are hyping him

[Shake n Blake]

(01-25-2019, 11:12 PM)Okeana Wrote: Uh he was the head coach of raiders in 2016 it was wade philips and his 3-4 they put in place in 2015

I mean no offense, but with how this post is worded, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that Del Rio did not coach a Super Bowl with the Broncos? If so, I think you're forgetting that the Broncos made it to 2 Super Bowls recently. Del Rio was their DC for the first Super Bowl, and the Raiders hired him to be their HC based on his success in Denver.

(01-25-2019, 11:27 PM)Okeana Wrote: When he took over panthers defense in 2002 they went from top five to getting progressively worse every season and dropped to 20 range.  He had two years at Denver ranked in 15-20 range as soon as wade philips took over they were top 5.  Not super impressed

As Sunset pointed out, Del Rio only coached one year as DC in Carolina, they ranked 2nd in defense, then Jacksonville hired him as their Head Coach. Them getting worse after Del Rio left is only a further testament to Del Rio.

[Bengalholic]

(01-25-2019, 11:46 PM)Okeana Wrote: You’re right there I’m pulling stats on cell phone so basically he had 1 good year out of the 3 he was dc.  Don’t get me wrong I think he was better than Vance Joseph but people are hyping him

Well, it would be 3 very good years out of 4, not 1 out of 3.

I agree there's a lot hype, but his track record as DC is pretty damn good overall.

Hard to know if he's still got it as DC until we actually see what he does with this group, assuming he's the guy of course. 

[Shake n Blake]

(01-25-2019, 11:46 PM)Okeana Wrote: You’re right there I’m pulling stats on cell phone so basically he had 1 good year out of the 3 he was dc.  Don’t get me wrong I think he was better than Vance Joseph but people are hyping him

It was 3 great years out of 4.

2002: 2nd ranked defense
2012: 3rd ranked defense
2013: 16th ranked defense
2014: 3rd ranked defense

Heck, the "off" year was the year they went to the Super Bowl, with Del Rio's defense holding the Chargers to 17 points and the Patriots to 16 points. So tbh, I'd say he's been pretty great in all 4 years he's been a DC. But either way, it's certainly not 1 good year out of 3.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-25-2019, 07:39 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I would like to see a situation where we are not committed to either a 3-4 or 4-3. However, our defense is not tooled for this flexibility. Baltimore runs more of a hybrid like Okeana mentioned and they are successful at it and have been since Ray Lewis. Granted, we have historically owned them, so having the right captains on the field and the right coaches as well are key. Problem with running a hybrid is if you don't have the right guys, it doesn't work. Plus side is it makes an OC crazy because it's harder to gameplan against a defense. 

It seems Baltimore has a much more aggressive stance in terms of creating pressure.  They come after you.  They don't sit back and let you dictate.  If you are able to pick up their pressure and get the ball out quickly, you can beat them but you have to have weapons that can get separation quickly.  

I think the Bengals will get more out of their players if they have a more creative scheme that involves a greater blitz % and leaves their CBs on an island.  Right now, the zone gets eaten alive and they waste the investments they have made at CB (three first round picks) by not using them at their strengths.

Sure, you will get beat on occasion when the pressure doesn't get there and a CB buys on a stop-go or something, but overall I think they will be a better defense in this schematic.  

[Sled21]

(01-25-2019, 09:32 PM)Synric Wrote: You are hampering Geno Atkins as a penetrating defensive lineman in a 2 gap front because it forces him to take on blockers more than penetrating...

That is literally the difference between single and 2 gap. The defensive line first and foremost takes on the block reads the play and chooses a gap. In a single gap they just penetrate.

Ugh.... conversations like this make me realize I need to study line play.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-25-2019, 09:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4 years as a Defensive Coordinator
3 of those defenses finished top 3 in yards
2 of them were top 5 in points allowed
They all finished no worse than 16th in take aways
One of those defenses made it to the Super Bowl (held the Patriots to 16 points and 320 yards in the AFC title game)

That's about as sparkling as a resume gets in only 4 years. Heck, his showings as a DC are what got him 2 different HC jobs.

Yeah, nothing there stands out to me either... (sarcasm)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-26-2019, 11:17 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Ugh.... conversations like this make me realize I need to study line play.

It is a little beyond me on this convo myself.

I understand the difference of a 3-4 to a 4-3 front.

I know that Geno is a 3-tech DT. I know what the A-gap is and a 2 gap.

I just don't know what the argument is about.