Bengals land G- John Miller

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Tyrod Taylor PFF rating in Buffalo 84.1, 84.3, 88.3 
Andy Dalton PFF during same period 79.4, 80.8, 86.9
Josh Allen PFF last year 65.3

I was kind of on your side on the Tyrod thing, but you can't seriously think Tyrod is better than Dalton. Let me put it this way. Tyrod had a good team around him last year and produced a 64.5 rating and got benched after 3 games. As a free agent (twice) no one was interested in him as a starter. 

The Browns signed him to play the whole "start a vet for a few games before playing the rookie" charade. The Chargers signed him as a clear backup. If Andy Dalton hit the FA market last year or this year, you know full well he'd be signed as a starter somewhere. 

All that said, yes...Tyrod was definitely better than Josh Allen's rookie performance. Tyrod is a bad starter/great backup type. Similar to Bortles. I can't blame the Bills for trying to upgrade on that, though. It just looks (so far) like Josh Allen was a bit too green.

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 01:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was kind of on your side on the Tyrod thing, but you can't seriously think Tyrod is better than Dalton. Let me put it this way. Tyrod had a good team around him last year and produced a 64.5 rating and got benched after 3 games. As a free agent (twice) no one was interested in him as a starter. 

The Browns signed him to play the whole "start a vet for a few games before playing the rookie" charade. The Chargers signed him as a clear backup. If Andy Dalton hit the FA market last year or this year, you know full well he'd be signed as a starter somewhere. 

All that said, yes...Tyrod was definitely better than Josh Allen's rookie performance. Tyrod is a bad starter/great backup type. Similar to Bortles. I can't blame the Bills for trying to upgrade on that, though. It just looks (so far) like Josh Allen was a bit too green.

Tyrod did well in Buffalo during a time period Dalton didn't play as well in Cincy. That is all I was showing with that compariosn. He said it was laughable to compare them and it really wasn't for that period. They are both mid level QB's Dalton maybe slightly above average Taylor probably slightly below....Allen not good currently. The real point was he was over selling how bad he was and I was trying to put it in context because he kept making excuses without any real facts.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 01:34 PM)McC Wrote: I said one thing about Allen.  Excuse  me.  I won't cast any more aspersions on your guy Tyrod, godlike figure that he is in your eyes.  I take it all back.

I don't think Tyrod is "godlike," don't know why you make that assumption when I've not indicated that in any way. I think Dalton is better than Tyrod, and I think both are middle-of-the-pack QBs. I just think Josh Allen is a bad QB.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 01:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was kind of on your side on the Tyrod thing, but you can't seriously think Tyrod is better than Dalton. Let me put it this way. Tyrod had a good team around him last year and produced a 64.5 rating and got benched after 3 games. As a free agent (twice) no one was interested in him as a starter. 

The Browns signed him to play the whole "start a vet for a few games before playing the rookie" charade. The Chargers signed him as a clear backup. If Andy Dalton hit the FA market last year or this year, you know full well he'd be signed as a starter somewhere. 

All that said, yes...Tyrod was definitely better than Josh Allen's rookie performance. Tyrod is a bad starter/great backup type. Similar to Bortles. I can't blame the Bills for trying to upgrade on that, though. It just looks (so far) like Josh Allen was a bit too green.

Not exactly. Taylor suffered a concussion that knocked him out of the game in Week 3. Mayfield came in and showed he could play well. Mayfield was the future for the franchise so it didn't make sense to bench him while he was playing well. Just because Mayfield won the job after injury doesn't mean Taylor is terrible, it just means Mayfield is better. 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 02:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: Tyrod did well in Buffalo during a time period Dalton didn't play as well in Cincy. That is all I was showing with that compariosn. He said it was laughable to compare them and it really wasn't for that period. They are both mid level QB's Dalton maybe slightly above average Taylor probably slightly below....Allen not good currently. The real point was he was over selling how bad he was and I was trying to put it in context because he kept making excuses without any real facts.

Ok. I think where Taylor is at now (on the bench in San Diego LA) kinda shows what level he's on though. He's a top end backup, very low-end starter. Not mid-level like Dalton. I think most people would laugh at Ryan Fitzpatrick being compared to Dalton, yet I'd say Fitzy is a better QB than Tyrod. 

I look at the following and wonder if Tyrod's semi-successful Bills career was a fluke:

- He was a 6th round pick
- No one traded for him in Baltimore, where he spent 4 years as a backup
- The Bills signed him to a measly 3 year, $3.35 million deal
- He won the Bills starter gig by beating out EJ Manuel and Matt Cassel (yuck)
- The Bills benched him for Nathan Peterman (ouch) during their best season in 14+ years

- He's had significant playing time in 4 games with teams not named the Bills. He's 1-2-1 in those games with a 62.9 passer rating. The only win happened when he got hurt/benched mid-game and Mayfield saved the day. The difference was astounding. Taylor got sacked a whopping 13 times in only 85 attempts in 2018 (once every 6.5 attempts) and posted a 64.5 rating. Mayfield was sacked only 25 times in 486 attempts (once every 19.4 attempts) and posted a 93.7 rating. 

I think you could do far worse for a backup, and he can even serve as a temporary starter. So saying he's trash is a bit much...but the guy is not a mid-level starter and I wouldn't put too much weight on his passer ratings (or PFF ratings) from his Bills days. He's not really close to Dalton. Not that Dalton is amazing. He's just a solid mid-range starter, whereas Taylor is high-end backup material.

...and when I say "semi-successful Bills career", I say that because the guy averaged around 2900 yards and 17 TD's in Buffalo.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 02:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Not exactly. Taylor suffered a concussion that knocked him out of the game in Week 3. Mayfield came in and showed he could play well. Mayfield was the future for the franchise so it didn't make sense to bench him while he was playing well. Just because Mayfield won the job after injury doesn't mean Taylor is terrible, it just means Mayfield is better. 

See my last post. Tyrod was absolutely awful with the Browns, pre-injury.

[depthchart]

(03-21-2019, 03:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: See my last post. Tyrod was absolutely awful with the Browns, pre-injury.

Can't we all just agree to blame any poor play by Tyrod, (while he played with the Browns), on Hue Jackson. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 03:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: See my last post. Tyrod was absolutely awful with the Browns, pre-injury.

I understand that point, but that was essentially 2.5 games compared to 3 full years with the Bills. Not every player adapts well into a new system, especially not right away. I guess if someone has proven themselves in the past on one team, I don't immediately write them off after just a few games with a new one. I guess I always scratched my head that a team that finally made the playoffs for the first time in like two decades ends up trading away the guy that got them there just to go with a very big project. It really destroyed the momentum for the Bills.

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 03:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I look at the following and wonder if Tyrod's semi-successful Bills career was a fluke:

3 years of success isn't a fluke. Your Bills comments after that don't matter at all because he played those seasons and turned in really good performances as determined by an unbiased 3rd party. Not much else to discuss the games were played and he was good. Where he is now doesn't change what happened. 

The whole Browns thing is funny by the way. Mayfield wasn't really good either until they fired Haley, but we all are running around pretending like that didn't matter lol.

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 03:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I understand that point, but that was essentially 2.5 games compared to 3 full years with the Bills. Not every player adapts well into a new system, especially not right away. I guess if someone has proven themselves in the past on one team, I don't immediately write them off after just a few games with a new one. I guess I always scratched my head that a team that finally made the playoffs for the first time in like two decades ends up trading away the guy that got them there just to go with a very big project. It really destroyed the momentum for the Bills.

This might have been what pushed them into wanting a new QB.  They finally make the playoffs after a hundred years and their defense plays lights out and this is what he gives them in a game that was winnable right up to the end--

13/37 for 134 yards no td's and one interception  3.6 yds/attempt.  Missed two wide open receivers in the end zone under no pressure and either one would have won the game.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 03:26 PM)depthchart Wrote: Can't we all just agree to blame any poor play by Tyrod, (while he played with the Browns), on Hue Jackson. 

I know you're joking, but Mayfield did play worse under Hue. Still, his 78.9 rating with Hue was miles better than the 64.5 Mayfield posted. 

Not to mention the pass blocking suddenly saw a miracle turn around when Taylor went down.

[Gobills123]

So, FWIW, its interesting to see an outside view.
First and foremost, make to mistake - Bills fans couldnt get away from Tyrod quick enough. In fact, with the fans he overstayed his welcome by at least a season (a 'playoff'one at that) bc he was what he was.
Guarenteed 175-250 yrds per game, 1 td and no picks. A game manager, nothing more. Its why no one in buffalo wanted jackson last year. They were all afraid of Tyrod part 2.

In general, buffalo had a huge mess on their hands. Their GM was spending $$ like his job depended on it and they were coached by Rex Ryan. After the old regime was booted, they brought in the new which was followed by a mass exodus of players trying to get as much dead cap eaten up while finding a few base key needs to build around going forward. They accidentally made the playoffs that year thanks to tyrods carefullness, defense and a lot of luck.

Everything now has a plan of development. Players must fit certian criteria to be considered and its not just a hodge podge. They went out of their way to essentially provide themselves with blank slate both in roster and cap and are finally free to start putting the plan in action.
Imo their signings thus far have been calculated and on point.

Back to Allen however, there is now two ways around it. Agree or disagree, you cant change the fact that Buffalo is straight jacked about their qb. For the 1st time in a long long tjme things are looking up.
The QB room returns for continuity- Barkley and Anderson. Also, Ken Dorsey will be qb coach (was getting OC sniffs 2 yrs ago) essentially recreating the room Cam had with CA - Mentor Anderson, qb coach Dorsey. Dabol has shown he can be very smart and creative with game plans that not by considence starting coming along woth Allens progression.

Allen started rough. Looking just as green as he was as the initial plan was to have him sit. Half way through the year he got injured and upon his return 3 weeks later it was like a switch flipped. Almost night and day. What followed was contant growth while ozzing potential. The trick will be to keep him on that trajectory. The thing with Allen (and similarly Newton in a way) is that his game (at least now) isnt to complete 6 of 8 passes for 4 yrs a piece. His game is completing 2 of 4 passes for 20-30 yds a clip and doing it consistently. His last 5 games were essentially putting a squad of scrubs w no run game and no line on his back. However he faired, the team faired. He had a terrible line and no name WR but STILL managed to show potential and most importantly took steps and improved each week.

Rookie years and generally a wash. They are generally spent on bad teams and consist of bad stats. What made last year the most fun losing season ever was watching Allen play hero ball and watching him do things we couldnt believe bc we hadnt seen a qb do things like that since 1996. All this from the least polished qb prospect who more than anyone needed to develop and he got to do so with live action for better or worse. The 1st half of the year was rough but the last 5 games were super fun

Now, could it crash and burn? Sure. Its interesting to see most pundits flip their position on Allen. Sure, the guys who totally hated the guy still arent fans. But the ones who didnt dislike him but sinply didnt believe in him have totally flip flopped. The kid is just a spark, has 'it', seems super coachable, hasnt made the same mistake 2x, and is already proving to be an excellent leader. Of course he may never assend. He has however given Bills fans hope and lots of it. Feel free to criticize as much as you want rightly or wrongly - but you cant change how the fan base as a whole feels. One thing is for sure, itll be fun to watch ESP now that he has some weapons and some proven talent - something that up until this year he has never had either in the pros or college.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-21-2019, 03:42 PM)Gobills123 Wrote: we hadnt seen a qb do things like that since 1996.

What, no love for Flutie and Bledsoe?

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 03:42 PM)Gobills123 Wrote: Rookie years and generally a wash. They are generally spent on bad teams and consist of bad stats. What made last year the most fun losing season ever was watching Allen play hero ball and watching him do things we couldnt believe bc we hadnt seen a qb do things like that since 1996. All this from the least polished qb prospect who more than anyone needed to develop and he got to do so with live action for better or worse. The 1st half of the year was rough but the last 5 games were super fun

His last five weeks he averaged 216 yards, 53% passing, 1.4 TD, 1.4 INT. His production was Tyrod Taylor like except he did it more excitingly. 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 03:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I understand that point, but that was essentially 2.5 games compared to 3 full years with the Bills. Not every player adapts well into a new system, especially not right away. I guess if someone has proven themselves in the past on one team, I don't immediately write them off after just a few games with a new one. I guess I always scratched my head that a team that finally made the playoffs for the first time in like two decades ends up trading away the guy that got them there just to go with a very big project. It really destroyed the momentum for the Bills.

NFL teams feel differently, apparently. If they thought Tyrod was so proven, he'd have no problem finding a starting gig. I don't hate the guy. I'm indifferent. It is what it is. 2 teams couldn't wait to be rid of the guy. Now he's a backup. 

There are instances of guys stringing together 3 years of "decent" numbers, then falling off the map. I don't see any major injuries with Tyrod, so I'm led to believe that the Bills had a system that worked around his deficiencies. He essentially played a Mark Sanchez role on a middling team. They focused on run game and defense. 

Essentially, Tyrod is David Garrard. Or Kaepernick. Or Matt Cassel. There's been a plethora of guys who had brief runs of okay-ness. If NFL teams saw him as something more than that, he'd have teams lining up to sign him as starter.

(03-21-2019, 03:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: 3 years of success isn't a fluke. Your Bills comments after that don't matter at all because he played those seasons and turned in really good performances as determined by an unbiased 3rd party. Not much else to discuss the games were played and he was good. Where he is now doesn't change what happened. 

The whole Browns thing is funny by the way. Mayfield wasn't really good either until they fired Haley, but we all are running around pretending like that didn't matter lol.

There's a reason Taylor is on a bench right now. At 29 years old. 

If a guy has a decent amount of "success" (just another reminder that he averaged 2952 yards and 17 TD's) in one spot, but can't replicate it anywhere else, most would indeed consider it a fluke...or at least be open to that possibility. 

If you disagree, address each point I made.

Why was he a 6th round pick?
Why did no one trade for him in Baltimore?
Why did the Bills sign him to a paltry contract (initially)?
Why were the Bills so reluctant to pay him after he produced?
Why did the Bills bench him for Nathan Peterman (possibly the worst QB in NFL history)?
Why was he so awful in Cleveland (Mayfield was at least decent under Hue and wasn't sacked at such an astronomical rate)
And lastly...why the heck is a mid level (14-18) starter sitting on a bench? 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 03:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: What, no love for Flutie and Bledsoe?

Bledsoe was great in year one. Played like butt in year two. He did the same thing in Dallas, IIRC.

[Bryan]

(03-21-2019, 04:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: NFL teams feel differently, apparently. If they thought Tyrod was so proven, he'd have no problem finding a starting gig. I don't hate the guy. I'm indifferent. It is what it is. 2 teams couldn't wait to be rid of the guy. Now he's a backup. 

There are instances of guys stringing together 3 years of "decent" numbers, then falling off the map. I don't see any major injuries with Tyrod, so I'm led to believe that the Bills had a system that worked around his deficiencies. He essentially played a Mark Sanchez role on a middling team. They focused on run game and defense. 

Essentially, Tyrod is David Garrard. Or Kaepernick. Or Matt Cassel. There's been a plethora of guys who had brief runs of okay-ness. If NFL teams saw him as something more than that, he'd have teams lining up to sign him as starter.


There's a reason Taylor is on a bench right now. At 29 years old. 

If a guy has a decent amount of "success" (just another reminder that he averaged 2952 yards and 17 TD's) in one spot, but can't replicate it anywhere else, most would indeed consider it a fluke...or at least be open to that possibility. 

If you disagree, address each point I made.

Why was he a 6th round pick?
Why did no one trade for him in Baltimore?
Why did the Bills sign him to a paltry contract (initially)?
Why were the Bills so reluctant to pay him after he produced?
Why did the Bills bench him for Nathan Peterman (possibly the worst QB in NFL history)?
Why was he so awful in Cleveland (Mayfield was at least decent under Hue and wasn't sacked at such an astronomical rate)
And lastly...why the heck is a mid level (14-18) starter sitting on a bench? 

I agree with you but I wouldn't hold his draft status against him. How many players have we seen that were late round picks or undrafted who went on to have good-great careers?

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 04:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If a guy has a decent amount of "success" (just another reminder that he averaged 2952 yards and 17 TD's) in one spot, but can't replicate it anywhere else, most would indeed consider it a fluke...or at least be open to that possibility. 

If you disagree, address each point I made.

Why was he a 6th round pick?
Why did no one trade for him in Baltimore?
Why did the Bills sign him to a paltry contract (initially)?
Why were the Bills so reluctant to pay him after he produced?
Why did the Bills bench him for Nathan Peterman (possibly the worst QB in NFL history)?
Why was he so awful in Cleveland (Mayfield was at least decent under Hue and wasn't sacked at such an astronomical rate)
And lastly...why the heck is a mid level (14-18) starter sitting on a bench? 

Your logic is baffling, and kind of scary. Because you want to argue draft position over results, along with a bunch of other nonsense, I'll go ahead and step out on this. I mean the NFL is so good at drafting QB's if they miss judged one it would be unheard of.....

[Shake n Blake]

(03-21-2019, 04:14 PM)Bryan Wrote: I agree with you but I wouldn't hold his draft status against him. How many players have we seen that were late round picks or undrafted who went on to have good-great careers?

Plenty, but it's not just one thing I'm looking at. It's everything combined. 

(03-21-2019, 04:19 PM)Au165 Wrote: Your logic is baffling, and kind of scary. Because you want to argue draft position over results, along with a bunch of other nonsense, I'll go ahead and step out on this. I mean the NFL is so good at drafting QB's if they miss judged one it would be unheard of.....

Usually the one getting personal and ignoring points is the one losing the debate. Just sayin. 

[jj22]

I've taken my fair share of shots at Miller, but I did catch some bills highlights when they were analyzing Allen, and he looked Ok (they were highlights but) I did watch him and he held his own.