Why are Playoff Wins Important? Bengals Edition

[THE PISTONS]

The Bengals have the 25th best All-Time winning percentage for regular season games! 45.6% winning percentage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_all-time_NFL_win–loss_records

[*Nately120*]

(04-04-2019, 12:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We're #14! Put that on a foam finger and sell it in the gift shop!

Ha, I'd be all for that.  Then again, I live in Steeler country and on sports days at the office I'd wear my 1990s AFC Central Champions shirt and strut around and ask people if they are jealous.

[THE PISTONS]

Since 2016...after free agency gutted our roster, we've had the 25th best record in the NFL over the past 3 years.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-04-2019, 12:21 PM)Synric Wrote: I agree with you to a point watching tape is important and I dont mind discussions about the previous year but every team is different moving forward.


But the OP is saying that Denver winning superbowls in 1998 and 1999 with John Elway effect how the 2019 Broncos win or lose record...

It could if it's proven winning practices that they are carrying over and still having success with now. I think that's the point OP is trying to make. The teams who have perpetual winning in the postseason could be following some best/better practices than those teams who constantly keep getting "close but no cigar."

[*Nately120*]

(04-04-2019, 12:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Since 2016...after free agency gutted our roster, we've had the 25th best record in the NFL over the past 3 years.

[THE PISTONS]

(04-04-2019, 12:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It could if it's proven winning practices that they are carrying over and still having success with now. I think that's the point OP is trying to make. The teams who have perpetual winning in the postseason could be following some best/better practices than those teams who constantly keep getting "close but no cigar."

Yep. Management/Ownership/Organizational Culture/Processes/etc.

To not win a playoff game for 27 years and be an extreme outlier, you have to be at the other end of the extreme and not be doing things similar to even the average teams. And we see statistics of how the Steelers and Ravens have 2X and 3X as many player personnel people as us for instance. They also have good GM's. They have owners who don't micromanage.

They've each won 2 Super Bowls while we've yet been able to win 1 playoff game.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-04-2019, 12:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The statistics clearly show that if you want to win a Super Bowl...that having a track record of winning playoff games matters.

And not winning playoff games in the past directly influences a teams chances of winning future SB's.

Furthermore, you have to move on from coaches who cannot get it done within the first 5 years. You cannot fear change with coaches, players, scheme, scouting, etc; you have to embrace it. Of the 31 head coaches to win at least one Super Bowl, 27 of them won their first championship within the first five seasons with that team and QB. So you shouldn't give a coach almost two decades to figure it out. Boomer & Wyche went in their first 5 as well; Cam and Ron did; Ryan and Smith got the falcons there as well. You have to be innovative.


This is where I start to think is the Bengals ultimate downfall. They refuse to step outside their comfort zone of doing business because of the fear of failing. They stay in their little comfort zone, doing business they know will not land them on being "like the 90's".  

[grampahol]

What if, instead we'd won the SB every time in the past 27 years. Everyone and their uncles would be saying we cheat and we're extremely annoying fans and entirely too spoiled. 
Hey, 2 outta 3 ain't bad, eh? 

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2019, 12:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And not winning playoff games in the past directly influences a teams chances of winning future SB's.

How much?

The Saints had 2 playoff wins in 32 years before they won the '09 Super Bowl.

Tampa Bay had 2 playoff wins in 20 years before they won the '02 Super Bowl.

The Rams had not even had a winning season in 9 years when they won the '99 Super Bowl.

The Ravens had never even made the playoffs before they won the Super Bowl in '00.

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2019, 12:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. When it comes down to it...that's what some fans are happy about after the 1990's.

Which fans?

Give me names.

[Atomic Orange]

Yes it is true we all root for a historically bad football team. 51 years and 2 AFC championships to show for it.

Once again it takes a little something special to be a Bengals fan.

Especially if you weren't birthed into it and/or because of proximity.

Bonus points if you became a fan in the 90's

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2019, 12:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes. Clearly amount of playoff wins are directly correlated to Super Bowl wins with the Top 11 teams in playoff wins since 1991 winning Super Bowls.

And the lowest 10 teams in wins only having 1 Super Bowl between them.

When you have a de facto GM who hasn't won a single playoff game, you can't really hope for a Super Bowl. The best you can hope for is apparently a statistic that shows we have the 14th best record over our best 10 year span under his ownership!   

We're #14! Put that on a foam finger and sell it in the gift shop!

We had a team capable of winning a Super Bowl in 2015.  Before Dalton got injured we were 10-2 with the #1 scoring defense and the #4 scoring offense.  Some people think we had a shot a a championship in '05.

Why can't you admit that we had a Championship quality team(s) that was taken down by an injured QB.  What is it about shitting on the Bengals that gives you so much joy?

You work hard to spin the stats to make the Bengals look as bad as possible.  You mock any success we have had and call it "luck".  I understand people who are disappointed by the Bengals but you actually work hard at making them look as bad as possible. 

When I ask you what the Bengals have done right to have a record better than half the league over a decade you refuse to respond with anything other than lies about how people people are so happy with an average team.

[THE PISTONS]

(04-04-2019, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We had a team capable of winning a Super Bowl in 2015.  Before Dalton got injured we were 10-2 with the #1 scoring defense and the #4 scoring offense.  Some people think we had a shot a a championship in '05.

Why can't you admit that we had a Championship quality team(s) that was taken down by an injured QB.  What is it about shitting on the Bengals that gives you so much joy?

You work hard to spin the stats to make the Bengals look as bad as possible.  You mock any success we have had and call it "luck".  I understand people who are disappointed by the Bengals but you actually work hard at making them look as bad as possible. 

When I ask you what the Bengals have done right to have a record better than half the league over a decade you refuse to respond with anything other than lies about how people people are so happy with an average team.

How do I 'work hard' at making them look as bad as possible? I'm just posting actual stats that are readily available on the Internet.

It's not like I'm making up my own stats.

Your counter stat for the Bengals success is 'Hey - Look we have the 14th best record!'. You somehow expect me to respond to this and say 'Wow - The 14th best record over that span is awesome!!!' I don't feel it is. It's middle of the pack. I expect more.

I'd love to see the Bengals make it far in the playoffs and play in Super Bowls.

I can see how 14th is an improvement from 26th from 2000-2010. And 26th is an improvement from worst from 1990-2000. Over the past 3 seasons, we've had the 25th best record in the NFL though.

[BengalChris]

(04-04-2019, 12:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That does seem to be a trend where owners that Micromanage Teams don't have success.

Probably rightly so as what are the odds that they would be able to (in some cases) make their money in other industries AND have great football minds?

In the Bengals case it is: What are the odds that your father would be a great football mind and that the kids would have the same great mind.

Obviously it's not 100% odds. LOL

Mike Brown didn't have industrial success before inheriting the Bengals, while guys like Kraft, Jones, Allen and the Home Depot guy were all successes before entering the football arena.

 

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2019, 02:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How do I 'work hard' at making them look as bad as possible? I'm just posting actual stats that are readily available on the Internet.

It's not like I'm making up my own stats.

I have only explained this about 10 times.

You don't measure success by championships won over the last 27 years because it does not make the Bengals look as bad (18 teams have not won a Super Bowl)

You don't look at regular season wins because over the last 16 years the Bengals have been in the top half of the league.

Instead you just use ONE measure.  Playoff wins.  And you use that because it is the one that makes the Bengals look the worst.

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2019, 02:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:  You somehow expect me to respond to this and say 'Wow - The 14th best record over that span is awesome!!!'

No I don't.  That is just a lie you use to make a strawman because you can never respond to what I actually say.

Here is what I actually say, and you have yet to respond...…..


If the Bengals have the worst front office and scouts, can't draft well, have the worst coaches, and don't sign free agents then how have they been better than so many other teams in the league over the past 10-15 years.

[NKURyan]

(04-04-2019, 12:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. When it comes down to it...that's what some fans are happy about after the 1990's.

LOL at the guy who is holding the current Bengals accountable for the franchise performance in the 90s trying to take the high road here.

Seriously, why in the blue hell do people insist on bringing up how the Bengals did from 1993-2005 like it matters at all? Is there another team in any sport anywhere that is held responsible for how they did two decades ago? The Bengals were hot garbage in that time span, and none of that matters to this team, today, in the slightest bit, yet folks still hold that against them. People need to get over it and move on already.

I mean, do people look at the Reds and say "well, they had nine straight losing seasons (something the Bengals never did in the 90s, btw) in the early 2000s, guess they've got no hope this year"? No, because it's a stupid point to make, but time and time again we have to go down this road with the Bengals. At the same time, the people who insist that this past actually matters will trip over themselves to tell you how the Browns are going to be unstoppable despite the fact they haven't posted a winning record in the last twelve seasons - actual recency that actually matters.

Now what people who do this are trying to do is point out that it was Mike Brown then and it's Mike Brown now, so nothing ever changes, but things have changed and you'd have to be blind not to acknowledge it. Compare the guys the Bengals drafted during that time span to the guys they've drafted since - it's night and day. I've listed these draft successes for you time and time again. They figured it out - it may have taken them a long damn time, but they did. Since 2005 they've made more impactful trades (dumping Carson, bringing in Cordy Glenn, getting ridiculous value for AJ McCarron before Cleveland pooped themselves, flipping an old and unneeded Corey Dillons for picks they turned into defensive contributors, Reggie Nelson, etc), they've made quality free agent signings which, while not the sexiest moves, gave them contributing players on quality teams (guys like Terrence Newman, Adam Jones, Chris Crocker, and BenJarvus Green-Ellis come to mind), and they've shown a willingness to make moves they never used to make (replacing coordinators, paying and keeping their own guys). I feel okay in regards to what the front office is capable of because the last ten years of shown me they can do it, and I'm not going to convince myself otherwise just because they were terrible two decades ago.

And I know what the counterpoint is - well, that was all Marvin Lewis. And sure, I give him all the credit in the world for bringing the franchise into the 21st century. There's not a person out there who wanted Marvin to get a playoff win here more than I did purely out of appreciation for what he did, but at the same time it's obvious he had to go. Just because he's gone doesn't mean the Bengals instantly go back to how they were, either. The franchise didn't instantly undo all the changes he brought upon them, and they didn't instantly forget the lessons they've undoubtably learned over the last decade. I'm more than willing to cut the FO some slack for what they've done recently rather than sit here shaking in my boots over what happened 20+ years ago.

So let's look at some actual recent, relevant years. Let's look at how the Bengals have done over the last decade. The Bengals have posted a solid 89-84-3 record over the last ten regular seasons, putting them squarely in the middle of the NFL pack. Not the best, not the worst, surrounded by teams I would consider pretty good NFL franchises in Kansas City, Houston, and Carolina. This indicates to me that, if nothing else, the much-maligned front office can put together a solid NFL team. Does it mean anything more than that? Well... not really. Not when the Rams are sitting there 5th from the bottom coming off a Super Bowl season. Not when everyone's beloved Browns, a team of destiny that apparently nobody will be able to stop next year are sitting at the bottom of the list with no one else close. Still, I think this is a lot more useful than looking at a 27 year span like is suggested in the original post.

And I know from reading through this that the thought of anyone taking any pride in being middle-of-the-pack the last ten years just cracks you up, but come on. If you asked a Chiefs fan if they feel like they've had a successful decade, they'd say yes. So would a Texans or Panthers fan. If they're allowed to feel good about it, so am I... I'm not going to apologize for feeling good about the last ten years in Bengaldom and neither should anyone else - when you make the playoffs more times in a decade than you don't that's a pretty good run. 

"But they lost all of those playoff games!" Yeah, I know, and it sucks. I really wish they would have won one, but be it through injuries, poor coaching decisions, player idiocy, or whatever it just has not been meant to be. I believe it'll happen someday, because I've seen how close they've come (2015). When it does, the long, long, looooooooooong wait will have made it just that much sweeter. And I know they'll be plenty of people who will want to go right to "it's only one playoff game, now they have to win another or it doesn't matter", they'll be plenty of people ready to question if it really matters, they'll be plenty of people who claim a Super Bowl is all that matters, and they'll be plenty of people ready to wax poetic on here about how "OMG they've only got one playoff win in 28/29/30 years (or whatever it ends up being)... but I just won't care. I will be on cloud nine, and anyone who doesn't stop themselves to enjoy that moment is going to be missing out.

People wear this "I expect more than XXX" thing like it's a badge of honor, but all it does is set you up for disappointment and negativity. Try enjoying yourself for once, you might live longer. Don't take things for granted, because it can all be gone in an instance.