Bengals history of making lemonade out of lemons

[fredtoast]

I posted a thread asking what the Bengals had done right over the last decade.  That decade includes the '09 team and after looking closely I'd say the best thing the Bengals did on 2009 was make lemonade out of lemons.

- leading rusher, Cedric Benson had been signed off the street in the middle of the previous season after being released by the Bears.

- O-line was mostly comprised of undrafted free agents (Nate Livings) and players released by other teams (Dennis Roland-Bears, Kyle Cook-Vikings, Evan Mathis-Dolphins)

- leading tackler, Dhani Jones, had also been signed off the street in the middle of the previous year after the Saints had released him.

- both starting safeties were signed after being cut (Roy Williams-Cowboys, Chris Crocker-Browns)

- placekicker, Shayne Graham, had been cut by the Panthers.

- both of out TEs (Danial Coats, J.P. Foschi) were undrafted free agents who had been with other teams

- OLB Rashad Jenty had been signed out of the CFL.


Then next year, 2010, we added Adam Jones who had been cut by multiple teams, and Reggie Nelson who was considered such a bust in Jacksonville that we were able to get him in trade for a back up DB, David Jones, who barely played for us.

2011 we signed WR Andrew Hawkins out of the CFL.  We signed 2 free agent LBs who were not really "busts" but had not lived up to their First Round Draft status (Manny Lawson, Thomas Howard), and Nate Clements who had been cut by the Forty-niners.

2012 we signed Terrance Newman who had been released by the Cowboys and Wallace Gilberry who had been cut by the Chiefs.  Also added undrafted free agent Vontaze Burfict.

But then after that the stream of successful reclamation projects seemed to dry up.  We Signed Michael Johnson in 2015 after Tampa Bay released him and Brandon LaFell in 2016 after he was cit by the Patriots, but most of the other signings of older or troubled players seemed to work out.  I don't even remember if Harrison, Hawk, Dansby, or Minter had been cut or not before we signed them.

[depthchart]

I am all for making Lemonade out of lemons.

It is when they make continual attempts at making Chicken Salad out of chicken crap that I have problems with.

They had to see many signs of Cedric & Fisher not being viable long term options yet they just had to keep trying to make those high draft choices pan out.

Hart's contract suggests that he is lemonade out of a lemon in the Bengal's eyes but the jury could still be out on whether the Bengals make continual attempts at proving to fans that Hart makes a good Chicken Salad. 

[impactplaya]

its a strategy that the Pats have used for years.
the only difference is the Pats have a HOF HC and QB.
that can cover for alot of draft hiccups and signing guys Chris Hogan Martellus Bennett Josh Gordon for next to pennies.
but the Bengals cant rely on that bubble gum and duct tape method forever..they need to draft long term difference makers

[depthchart]

(04-08-2019, 01:54 PM)impactplaya Wrote: but the Bengals cant rely on that bubble gum and duct tape method forever..they need to draft long term difference makers

Upgrading from the bubble gum & duct tape players is what is needed.

Hart is a good example.

They got a value usage out of Hart in 2018 and can start 2019 with him at right tackle, however, I would be Drafting some serious competition for Hart to deal with if I were the GM. (1st or 2nd round if it were up to me)

My concern is that the Bengals may just pencil Hart in as their guy at right tackle and wait until the 4th round or later to bring in any competition for him.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2019, 01:54 PM)impactplaya Wrote: but the Bengals cant rely on that bubble gum and duct tape method forever..they need to draft long term difference makers

(04-08-2019, 02:09 PM)depthchart Wrote: Upgrading from the bubble gum & duct tape players is what is needed.

Hart is a good example.

Last year we traded for the 8th highest paid OT in the league and signed the leagues leading tackler in free agency.

To me that is what made this year's free agent moves such a punch in the gut.  I was telling everyone not to hope for top tier players, but I thought for sure we would bring in some more second-level type players That had a history of starting and producing.

But instead we had one of the worst years ever in free agency.  And that is saying a lot for the Bengals.  Hart was one of the guys we wanted replaced, and Webb could not even make an NFL roster in '17.  Miller did start but he was a pretty low level starter.

[depthchart]

(04-08-2019, 02:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But instead we had one of the worst years ever in free agency. 

Hopefully some of this can be attributed to Zac Taylor coming in with a New Staff and year 1 may be used in part for Zac & Staff to evaluate the players they have in place.

Then Zac gets more Free Agency rope in 2020 but even that may be limited.

Some serious upgrades could present themselves in the Draft and the Bengals are in a decent position for a Trade Down.

Trading down to say pick #17 with the Giants could bring an extra 2nd round pick.

Right now I want to see something out of their Draft Strategy that gets me excited and signals that they really do have an Innovator in the building at Head Coach shaping Drafts.

[HuDey]

(04-08-2019, 03:01 PM)depthchart Wrote: Hopefully some of this can be attributed to Zac Taylor coming in with a New Staff and year 1 may be used in part for Zac & Staff to evaluate the players they have in place.

Then Zac gets more Free Agency rope in 2020 but even that may be limited.

Some serious upgrades could present themselves in the Draft and the Bengals are in a decent position for a Trade Down.

Trading down to say pick #17 with the Giants could bring an extra 2nd round pick.

Right now I want to see something out of their Draft Strategy that gets me excited and signals that they really do have an Innovator in the building at Head Coach shaping Drafts.

Agree 100% with the bolded. I want to see evidence that a plan exists to build a winning franchise here. Something outside of the usual Mike Brown comfort zone would be a good start.

[3wt]

(04-08-2019, 03:35 PM)HuDey Wrote: Agree 100% with the bolded. I want to see evidence that a plan exists to build a winning franchise here. Something outside of the usual Mike Brown comfort zone would be a good start.

I mean I think they do have a strategy:  sign reasonably priced free agents - focusing on our own players - to ensure freedom in drafting the best player available in the draft.

And their past demonstrates that can work, but their recent past has not been very successful in either strategy.

And, as Fred said, the track we took this year in free agency has been very discouraging based on who we signed for how much.

The only smidgen of hope I have is that both Pollack and Turner seem to think there's a significant upside with Hart that is going to imminently emerge.


Boy I hope they're right - and that they are able to balance our needs and the talent available in the draft - hopefully with some late round gems.


We'll see.   But my son has been the easy going optimist with me being the pessimist.    And he's more the pessimist this go round.

[Bryan]

(04-08-2019, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: - both starting safeties were signed after being cut (Roy Jones-Cowboys, Chris Crocker-Browns)

Roy Williams?

[jj22]

You mean ordering water and taking the lemon it came with dropping it in and then adding sugar from a packet on the table?

Ok. I agree.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2019, 04:00 PM)Bryan Wrote: Roy Williams?

Yes.

Thnx.

[*jason*]

(04-08-2019, 07:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.

Thnx.

It's too bad we didn't have Roy Jones (Jr) on our team.

[HuDey]

(04-08-2019, 03:49 PM)3wt Wrote: I mean I think they do have a strategy:  sign reasonably priced free agents - focusing on our own players - to ensure freedom in drafting the best player available in the draft.

And their past demonstrates that can work, but their recent past has not been very successful in either strategy.

And, as Fred said, the track we took this year in free agency has been very discouraging based on who we signed for how much.

The only smidgen of hope I have is that both Pollack and Turner seem to think there's a significant upside with Hart that is going to imminently emerge.


Boy I hope they're right - and that they are able to balance our needs and the talent available in the draft - hopefully with some late round gems.


We'll see.   But my son has been the easy going optimist with me being the pessimist.    And he's more the pessimist this go round.

That strategy of theirs has produced fairly consistent mediocrity. I’m hoping that the Taylor regime has their sights set a bit higher than that.

[BengalChris]

Lemonade, yes. But why is Mike Brown calling it "Professional" football?

The opening post show just how inept the Mike Brown front office is. The only job of the front office (player personnel part we are talking about) is to bring in the best possible talent within the salary cap. That's their entire job! Clearly, just from the opening post, we can see that they suck at it.

 

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2019, 08:58 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The opening post show just how inept the Mike Brown front office is. The only job of the front office (player personnel part we are talking about) is to bring in the best possible talent within the salary cap. That's their entire job! Clearly, just from the opening post, we can see that they suck at it. 

Not sure what you mean.  The opening post shows that the Bengals do a great job at finding values.  They made the playoffs 6 times in the last decade.  That is not enough, but it is better than a lot of other teams.  So I don't think you can say the "suck" unless over half of the eague also sucks.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-08-2019, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1. Dhani Jones, Roy Williams,, Chris Crocker, Rashad Jenty, Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Manny Lawson, Thomas Howard, Nate Clements, Terrance Newman, Wallace Gilberry, Vontaze Burfict.

2. But then after that the stream of successful reclamation projects seemed to dry up. Harrison, Hawk, Dansby, or Minter

1. Mike Zimmer

2. No Mike Zimmer

(Worth noting that Zimmer was around for Burfict's first two years, which was when he went to the Pro Bowl, had his 2nd Team All-Pro season, and averaged 149 tackles a season/9.8 tackles per start.)

- - - - - - -
Related...
Vikings Defense Rankings (Total / Scoring)

2011: 21st / 31st
2012: 16th / t-14th
2013: 31st / 32nd
Zimmer Hired
2014: 14th / 11th
2015: 13th / 5th
2016: 3rd / 6th
2017: 1st / 1st
2018: 4th  9th



Bengals Defense Rankings (Total / Scoring)

2011: 7th / 9th
2012: 6th / 8th
2013: 3rd / t-5th
Zimmer Leaves
2014: 22nd / 12th
2015: 11th / 2nd
2016: 17th / 8th
2017: 18th / 16th
2018: 32nd / 30th


Letting Zimmer leave instead of giving him the HC job after the 2013 playoff flop against an inferior Chargers team will go down as one of the worst decisions in Bengals franchise history. Up there with turning down a billion picks from the Saints for the Akili Smith pick.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-08-2019, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I posted a thread asking what the Bengals had done right over the last decade.  That decade includes the '09 team and after looking closely I'd say the best thing the Bengals did on 2009 was make lemonade out of lemons.

- leading rusher, Cedric Benson had been signed off the street in the middle of the previous season after being released by the Bears.

- O-line was mostly comprised of undrafted free agents (Nate Livings) and players released by other teams (Dennis Roland-Bears, Kyle Cook-Vikings, Evan Mathis-Dolphins)

- leading tackler, Dhani Jones, had also been signed off the street in the middle of the previous year after the Saints had released him.

- both starting safeties were signed after being cut (Roy Williams-Cowboys, Chris Crocker-Browns)

- placekicker, Shayne Graham, had been cut by the Panthers.

- both of out TEs (Danial Coats, J.P. Foschi) were undrafted free agents who had been with other teams

- OLB Rashad Jenty had been signed out of the CFL.


Then next year, 2010, we added Adam Jones who had been cut by multiple teams, and Reggie Nelson who was considered such a bust in Jacksonville that we were able to get him in trade for a back up DB, David Jones, who barely played for us.

2011 we signed WR Andrew Hawkins out of the CFL.  We signed 2 free agent LBs who were not really "busts" but had not lived up to their First Round Draft status (Manny Lawson, Thomas Howard), and Nate Clements who had been cut by the Forty-niners.

2012 we signed Terrance Newman who had been released by the Cowboys and Wallace Gilberry who had been cut by the Chiefs.  Also added undrafted free agent Vontaze Burfict.

But then after that the stream of successful reclamation projects seemed to dry up.  We Signed Michael Johnson in 2015 after Tampa Bay released him and Brandon LaFell in 2016 after he was cit by the Patriots, but most of the other signings of older or troubled players seemed to work out.  I don't even remember if Harrison, Hawk, Dansby, or Minter had been cut or not before we signed them.

Just because a player was cut doesn't necessarily = he sucked. You listed some good players there. Nelson was good in Jax...he just didn't live up to his lofty draft status. Benson flashed in Chicago. Roy Williams was still a solid player. We kinda just stumbled on Graham very early in his career.

(04-08-2019, 01:48 PM)depthchart Wrote: I am all for making Lemonade out of lemons.

It is when they make continual attempts at making Chicken Salad out of chicken crap that I have problems with.

They had to see many signs of Cedric & Fisher not being viable long term options yet they just had to keep trying to make those high draft choices pan out.

Hart's contract suggests that he is lemonade out of a lemon in the Bengal's eyes but the jury could still be out on whether the Bengals make continual attempts at proving to fans that Hart makes a good Chicken Salad. 

This. Just because we had success once with chicken crap doesn't mean we should cook with it every year. Perhaps the owner should spring for better ingredients for the chef to work with.

(04-08-2019, 01:54 PM)impactplaya Wrote: its a strategy that the Pats have used for years.
the only difference is the Pats have a HOF HC and QB.
that can cover for alot of draft hiccups and signing guys Chris Hogan Martellus Bennett Josh Gordon for next to pennies.
but the Bengals cant rely on that bubble gum and duct tape method forever..they need to draft long term difference makers

People underestimate the Pats roster. They've had a ton of great players through the years. Bruschi. Seau. Rodney Harrison. Ty Law. Lawyer Milloy. Asante Samuel. Darrelle Revis. Randy Moss. Wes Welker. Corey Dillon. Danny Woodhead. Vince Wilfork. Gronk. Richard Seymour. Julian Edelman. Willie McGinest. Ty Warren. Sony Mitchel. Ridley. great o lines.

They just tend to cycle through this talent and replace them rather than pay big money. Then people forget all the talent they've had through the years.

[NKURyan]

(04-08-2019, 09:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1. Mike Zimmer

2. No Mike Zimmer

(Worth noting that Zimmer was around for Burfict's first two years, which was when he went to the Pro Bowl, had his 2nd Team All-Pro season, and averaged 149 tackles a season/9.8 tackles per start.)

- - - - - - -
Related...
Vikings Defense Rankings (Total / Scoring)

2011: 21st / 31st
2012: 16th / t-14th
2013: 31st / 32nd
Zimmer Hired
2014: 14th / 11th
2015: 13th / 5th
2016: 3rd / 6th
2017: 1st / 1st
2018: 4th  9th



Bengals Defense Rankings (Total / Scoring)

2011: 7th / 9th
2012: 6th / 8th
2013: 3rd / t-5th
Zimmer Leaves
2014: 22nd / 12th
2015: 11th / 2nd
2016: 17th / 8th
2017: 18th / 16th
2018: 32nd / 30th


Letting Zimmer leave instead of giving him the HC job after the 2013 playoff flop against an inferior Chargers team will go down as one of the worst decisions in Bengals franchise history. Up there with turning down a billion picks from the Saints for the Akili Smith pick.

To be fair, there were whispers that Minnesota might let Zimmer go after last season, so it's not like he has set the world on fire as a head coach either. I don't know if I'm calling it one of the worst decisions in Bengals history considering all the terrible decisions there are to choose from, lol.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-09-2019, 07:13 PM)NKURyan Wrote: To be fair, there were whispers that Minnesota might let Zimmer go after last season, so it's not like he has set the world on fire as a head coach either. I don't know if I'm calling it one of the worst decisions in Bengals history considering all the terrible decisions there are to choose from, lol.

I don't think Zimmer has ever had the talent level of the 2013-2015 Bengals teams to work with in Minnesota.

They won a postseason game in 2017 with their 3rd string QB in Case Keenum. 

I would think that means he could do much better than Lewis did with the '14 and '15 teams.

[NKURyan]

(04-09-2019, 07:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't think Zimmer has ever had the talent level of the 2013-2015 Bengals teams to work with in Minnesota.

They won a postseason game in 2017 with their 3rd string QB in Case Keenum. 

I would think that means he could do much better than Lewis did with the '14 and '15 teams.

Case Keenum may have been their 3rd stringer, but he also had starting experience in the league and was even then probably better than most teams backup QB. Since then, Minnesota has spent quite a bit of money on the position and they took a step backwards.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but we'll never know. All I'm saying is that he hasn't exactly lit the world on fire yet.

I also think it would be pretty hard for a coach to do better than Lewis did with the 2015 team, even if it ultimately left a very bitter taste in our mouths.. I put a lot of the blame for the playoff loss on Marvin's shoulders, but at the same time he had an AJ McCarron-led team leading a heavily favored Steelers team with minutes left to play, and I think that does count for something.