Lance McAllisters valid questions

[fredtoast]

(09-15-2015, 09:46 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote:  It seems to me to be an easy answer but I think there are many who would take the better regular season record. I think those people have low competitive drive but hey to each their own. 

I think wanting to win MORE games would be a better indication of competitive drive than wanting to win FEWER games.

But to each his own

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2015, 09:46 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Well stated!
It is the frustration that comes with that French word that means "has not done shit yet" - potential. 

If you have playoff win potential and do not win in the playoffs...the season in total is a failure regardless of your regular season record. Case in point...would you rather get into the playoffs with and 8-8 record and (we will use just our current benchmark) win a playoff game or go 14-2 and not get a playoff win?

 It seems to me to be an easy answer but I think there are many who would take the better regular season record. I think those people have low competitive drive but hey to each their own. 

To me, it's all about progress. If we went 3-13 last year, I'd be satisfied with 7-9 this year. If we went 7-9, I'd be satisfied with reaching the playoffs. If we make the playoffs and lose, I want to see them reach again and win this time.

I can be one of the more optimistic guys on here (I predicted we'd hang 27 on the Raiders when many were predicting 13-14 points), but I realize that this team has been historically bad in postseason and I get why many are frustrated.

If it doesn't bother you at all, more power to ya, but don't act as if people who express frustration are being ridiculous. The reasons for frustration are perfectly understandable.

[Penn]

(09-15-2015, 07:27 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: In my opinion this was a well thought out piece written by Lance McAlister of 700 wlw about the Cincinnati Bengals  fan base. What was interesting to me is the different markets he has been in and covered, yet he claims this one is a bit different.

I guess the question is why? Why exactly do you (or I) react the way we do? Why can't we just enjoy what we have and save the "anger and venom" for if and when we are bounced from super bowl contention?

Just so everyone knows, I am not personally pointing my finger at you or anyone else. I just thought I would share what I thought was an interesting take on our fanbase.  


http://www.700wlw.com/onair/lance-mcalister-7818/question-of-the-day-whats-up-13945683/

http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-LOL-ALL-THE-EDIT ???

(09-15-2015, 08:07 PM)Anderson HOF Wrote: Steeler fans wake up with hate.. lived there 5 years.. KC 3 years... i just think he writing is a bunch of fluff.. we can see these fans in every city... in the end the majority of fans Bengals and other teams do not hate on a winning team.. lets just be honest and logical about it.

I've lived multiple years in all 3 markets too.  Never saw anything like the relevant claim in KC during the time of Schottenheimer, Montana, Thomas and Smith and only minimal amounts in Pittsburgh last 2 SB's til just before Noll's depature.  Granted, other than this board I didn't see much of it in Cincy either.

Here in GA though, homers all the way.  Limited experience in Indy but it seems the same.

Shall I go into other markets I'm familiar with?

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2015, 09:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think wanting to win MORE games would be a better indication of competitive drive than wanting to win FEWER games.

But to each his own

Ding Ding Ding...right on queue. Then for this type of fiery competitor the preseason record is important? 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2015, 10:02 PM)Penn Wrote: http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-LOL-ALL-THE-EDIT ???


I've lived multiple years in all 3 markets too.  Never saw anything like the relevant claim in KC during the time of Schottenheimer, Montana, Thomas and Smith and only minimal amounts in Pittsburgh last 2 SB's til just before Noll's depature.  Granted, other than this board I didn't see much of it in Cincy either.

Here in GA though, homers all the way.  Limited experience in Indy but it seems the same.

Shall I go into other markets I'm familiar with?

KC made it to the AFC championship with Montana. The Steelers won 4 Super Bowls under Noll. These levels of success tend to quell fan bases.

Can you describe any other markets that dealt with a 25 year playoff-win drought with 12 years of complete ineptitude built into that?

I can come close. Up here in Michigan, the Lions are mostly an afterthought. They come in a distant 3rd in interest, behind the Spartans, Wolverines and Tigers. Lions fans do have negative feelings about their team, but they don't gripe about it much. They just have a "Lions will be the Lions" attitude about it. Very dismissive. Is that a better attitude to have?

[The Real Deal]

(09-15-2015, 10:02 PM)Penn Wrote: http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-LOL-ALL-THE-EDIT ???

Not me bro?

[fredtoast]

(09-15-2015, 10:12 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Ding Ding Ding...right on queue. Then for this type of fiery competitor the preseason record is important? 

Preseason games don't count.

I like to win them, but tyhe point of a preseason game is not to win. So winning is not really that important when the teams are more interested in getting a look at players instead of winning.

[*Awful Llama*]

(09-15-2015, 10:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I can come close. Up here in Michigan, the Lions are mostly an afterthought. They come in a distant 3rd in interest, behind the Spartans, Wolverines and Tigers. Lions fans do have negative feelings about their team, but they don't gripe about it much. They just have a "Lions will be the Lions" attitude about it.

As a 30-year Lions fan (yes, I "respect" two teams), I agree with this. Lions fans are just resolved to the failure. I was talking to a Lions fan at work today, re-hashing that mess Sunday when they took a 21-3 lead in SD and then let the Chargers drop 30 unanswered on them. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he knew the lead was too good to be true and they'd manage to somehow blow it. He wasn't angry or even disappointed, really, he just seemed resigned to the inevitability of it all.

I don't see that in this fanbase, and I'd rather see Lance getting insane tweets or fans bitching about a pre-season loss than just the sad apathy that can infect a fan base.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-15-2015, 09:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Didn't you make a thread just the other day about how both sides have valid points in the Marvin and Andy debates?

Which team do you think they play/coach for?

The truth is that the Bengals (and their fans) are in a very unique situation. Lance is an idiot if he doesn't understand why there's an undercurrent of negativity surrounding the Bengals right now.

He can say that he's never seen a fan base act this way over a winning team, but what other winning teams have gone 25 years without a playoff win? How many have gone 0-6 in the playoffs while doing so well in regular season?

The answer is none. The Bengals are the only team in NFL history to deal with these circumstances. So who is Lance (or anyone) to judge the fans on how they react to such unprecedented circumstances?

It is incredibly frustrating as a fan to watch a team show so much promise every year, only to completely flop in epic fashion each January. Anyone who doesn't understand that just doesn't WANT to understand.

I'd give you a thousand rep points if I could.

Lance calling the Bengals a "winning" team glosses over the facts a bit to support his argument.  And like you say later on it's the lack of progression that makes it so hard to swallow !

Add in the fact that stretch Armstrong's and rubik's cubes were still lying around in kids rooms the last time this team won a playoff game. If he can't understand the frustration ??

Ever hear a player at the seasons start say "we're planning on having a good season, coming in a couple games over .500 and getting smoked in the playoffs again. We'll hang our hat on that and just be happy" ?

Shove that crud where the sun........ well you know.

[Penn]

(09-15-2015, 10:19 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Not me bro?

You "both" seem fixated on the fanbase and close proximity in date of first post.

(09-15-2015, 10:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: KC made it to the AFC championship with Montana. The Steelers won 4 Super Bowls under Noll. These levels of success tend to quell fan bases. Can you describe any other markets that dealt with a 25 year playoff-win drought with 12 years of complete ineptitude built into that? I can come close. Up here in Michigan, the Lions are mostly an afterthought. They come in a distant 3rd in interest, behind the Spartans, Wolverines and Tigers. Lions fans do have negative feelings about their team, but they don't gripe about it much. They just have a "Lions will be the Lions" attitude about it.

You comment a few posts ago about the perception of a team that is progressively improving and this are completely valid.

Here.  Atl.  I saw the fanbase for the Falcons being well behind other teams as you see in Detroit due to the success of the Braves and Bulldogs (well, Bulldogs only comparative to the Falcons).  They made a superbowl and not much changed after that loss.  However Michael Vick came to town and yes, during his time the interest in the team increased and there were vocal critics of the team who were also fans of the team. Now, with Ryan, I see more homerism than anything.

So yeah, history is a big factor with fan mentality.

In Cincy you had (and yes I was there for this) the big promise of "Give us a new stadium so we can be competitive. New stadium and nothing improve.  Threat of a lawsuit for breach of contract since they weren't competitive.  Brown hires Lewis and goes hands off.  Success comes.  Lawsuit defaults and suddenly Brown puts his hand back into the team and it goes bad again.  Lewis comes up for contract renewal and from some things I've see I believe Brown returns to hand off and the team improves again but the progress seems stalled.  Yeah, this breeds contempt even in some die hard fans. (and yes I was in Cincy both before superbowl appearances and then again for the second half of the horrible years into the Palmer days).

During the Palmer days I recall some national sports pundit making a comment about Cincy sports teams being just barely good enough to pay attention to and not better.  That was in 2006 I think.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2015, 10:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Preseason games don't count.

I like to win them, but tyhe point of a preseason game is not to win.  So winning is not really that important when the teams are more interested in getting a look at players instead of winning.

Correct...we are starting to get some where now. The point of the preseason games is to get prepared for the regular season games. The point of the regular season games is to win enough to get to the playoffs (news flash...this is the only point). The playoffs are a single elimination tournament with the ultimate goal being the Superbowl. See how this thing works?

To your point can we have fun along the way? Sure without a doubt. 

I say anybody who is a fan of winning rather than a fan of fun would say

"let me squeak into the playoffs and win" vs "As long as the season was fun for me as a fan if we lose in the playoffs I am ok with it" 

[fredtoast]

(09-15-2015, 10:40 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I say anybody who is a fan of winning rather than a fan of fun would say

"let me squeak into the playoffs and win" vs "As long as the season was fun for me as a fan if we lose in the playoffs I ok with it" 

The big lie in all of this is that any of us are okay with losing in the playoffs.

I would not trade 6 regular season wins for a Championship, but I would much rather go 14-2 and lose in the playoffs than go 8-8 and win only one playoff game.

Based on your logic one playoff win is meaningless if we don't win a championship, correct?

[fredtoast]

(09-15-2015, 10:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Ever hear a player at the seasons start say "we're planning on having a good season, coming in a couple games over .500 and getting smoked in the playoffs again. We'll hang our hat on that and just be happy" ?

I have never heard a fan say that either.

But what does any of this have to do with THIS season when we have not lost a playoff game?  Why are so many people who follow the Bengals already so bitter this year?  Lance is not talking about how the fans reacted to a playoff loss.  he is talking about the attitudes of the fans this year when we are still undefeated in the playoffs.

[McC]

(09-15-2015, 07:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually he mentioned that he had worked in the sports industry in many other cities.  He isn't asking why Bengal fans are not like him.  He is asking why they are not like any other city where he has worked.

Not surprised that this hit a nerve with you, though.

If he doesn't know why, then he's pretty ***** stupid.

And you don't know me, pinhead.  Don't even act like you do. 

Excuse me if I'm sick of people taking shots at the most loyal fans in all of sports, fans who have invested heavily, financially and emotionally, for supporting their team in any way they see fit.  They have earned the right. 

It's about trust.  Supporting them but not trusting them from having burned so many times before.  Sorry if that's over your head.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2015, 10:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never heard a fan say that either.

But what does any of this have to do with THIS season when we have not lost a playoff game?  Why are so many people who follow the Bengals already so bitter this year?  Lance is not talking about how the fans reacted to a playoff loss.  he is talking about the attitudes of the fans this year when we are still undefeated in the playoffs.

You ask the million dollar question...and you are correct that if you are able to enjoy the season in a vacuum (which would probably be much more fun) nothing that has happened before should matter. 

You may have defined the two sides of the fence. 

One side that are able to put the past in the rear view mirror and say "I am going to enjoy this ride as long as it last and to hell with the past"
vs.
The other side that says  "I have seen this show before and I want something different" maybe if I voice my opinion the football gods will hear my pleas and answer my prayer. 

Neither side is completely right or completely wrong. It is how the individual decides to enjoy the sport. 

I appreciate the back and forth with you as it made me laugh at myself a bit. I am off to pray to the football gods so I bid you a good night!

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2015, 10:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The big lie in all of this is that any of us are okay with losing in the playoffs.

I would not trade 6 regular season wins for a Championship, but I would much rather go 14-2 and lose in the playoffs than go 8-8 and win only one playoff game.

Based on your logic one playoff win is meaningless if we don't win a championship, correct?

I am certain you meant to say you would trade 6 regular season wins for a championship? 

To go 8-8 then run off 4-0 for a Super Bowl...you would take that any year correct? 

[fredtoast]

(09-15-2015, 11:00 PM)McC Wrote: Supporting them but not trusting them from having burned so many times before.  

How exactly is predicting a losing season and calling for the coach and QB to be replaced equal to "supporting" a team. 

[The Real Deal]

(09-15-2015, 10:36 PM)Penn Wrote: You "both" seem fixated on the fanbase and close proximity in date of first post.


,

I was a member of the original jungle noise board for roughly 10 years and while I didn't post often, (about 600 times total over that span) I think many on here can vouch for me on that front.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2015, 11:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How exactly is predicting a losing season and calling for the coach and QB to be replaced equal to "supporting" a team. 

First off, not all frustrated fans do these things. That said, those who want a new coach and/or QB feel that those things will improve the team. So how is that not supporting the team? I don't see anyone saying they wish for the coach and/or QB to fail. Don't get it twisted.

Same with predicting a losing record. That doesn't mean they want it to happen. It's similar to someone predicting 2500 rush yards for Jeremy Hill. Just because I predict that won't happen doesn't mean I don't want it to happen.

[orangeandblackblood]

(09-15-2015, 09:24 PM)JADefense Wrote: Personally, I  don't think even a SB win would satisfy some of these fans.  There would still be complaining about ticket costs, indoor facilities, Mike Brown's wardrobe, the color of the seats at PBS, and any number of other perceived affronts to their fanhood.

Seriously though, why not orange?