Initial Reactions To New Coaches From A Vet

[I_C_DeadPeople]

Regardless of the first number of years with ML at the helm, the last 3 were it was VERY clear that the team overall lacked energy and motivation. It was not the case in the earlier ML years but it was the last 3.

[NKURyan]

(05-20-2019, 10:36 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which would be a perfect example of holding a guy accountable. Ross underperformed in Year 2. He would have likely been farther behind that level as a rookie.

IF Ross was some 7th Round pick and played like he did in Years 1 and 2...fans would be questioning why he was on the roster.

If a 7th round pick had 7 TDs, noone would be questioning why he was on the roster.

John Ross at least has upside as a guy who's still pretty young. Hard for me to look at his treatment as him being held accountable by Marvin when Marv's still running a broken down Vontaze Burfict out there every time he can. If you hold one guy responsible for the mistakes he make while letting mistakes made by others slide at every opportunity that's pretty much the opposite of accountability.

Marv kept running a bad Mike Nugent out there about 3-4 weeks longer than he should've a few years back, and he was costing them games! What accountability?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-18-2019, 10:55 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Maybe Mike Brown didn't have anything to do with Marvin's problems and anybody who keeps the same job for 16 years without postseason success would face the same issues he did? I wouldn't even necessarily say that Marvin had the life sucked out of him - I think he'd love to still be coaching - he just got stale here. If he gets a shot with another team, I'd expect him to have success there... but it wasn't going to come here anymore.

I understand defending Marvin for helping us get out of that 90's swamp but i cannot understand people defending him after going 0-7 in the Playoffs and continually losing to the Steelers over and over again. In the end it is the coaches job to coach up what he has got and Marv failed in the big games time and time again. There is no excuse for this and people that make up for excuses for this weird me out man.

I am going to give our new HC the benefit of the doubt until he fails like Marv did and i doubt he gets near as long of a leash.

[impactplaya]

Marvin took the Bengals from being a,laughing stock
to the dance.
but once at the dance just simply could not get past the
punchbowl line

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 10:34 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. The whole 'Marvin doesn't hold players accountable narrative' is false. It's the old saying that when a team is losing the backup QB is the most popular guy in town. But, that doesn't mean the backups are better.

People often cite Ross as a guy that was falsely held accountable as a rookie...but I'd cite his play in Year 2 as an example that the coaching staff knew what they were doing. He likely wasn't ready to play Year 1.

The bottom line is coaches put on the field who they think will help the team win. It's simple, they want to win so they can keep their job.

I dunno, I seem to recall Paul Guenther going into the bye and ripping the defense a new one a couple of years ago, and talking about shaking up the lineup if things didn't go the way he wanted them to.  Then Marvin rebuked all that he said......seems kinda "no accountability-ish" to me.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-20-2019, 02:22 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I dunno, I seem to recall Paul Guenther going into the bye and ripping the defense a new one a couple of years ago, and talking about shaking up the lineup if things didn't go the way he wanted them to.  Then Marvin rebuked all that he said......seems kinda "no accountability-ish" to me.

Yeah, that was bullshit man. That pizzed me off and was when i really started to not like Marvin.

[3wt]

(05-20-2019, 02:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno, I seem to recall Paul Guenther going into the bye and ripping the defense a new one a couple of years ago, and talking about shaking up the lineup if things didn't go the way he wanted them to.  Then Marvin rebuked all that he said......seems kinda "no accountability-ish" to me.

One of the biggest things that irked me about Lewis.   I threw his coaching staff under the bus publicly after demanding that players air their complaints in private.

I was a Guenther fan.  I think Lewis held him back.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 12:00 PM)grampahol Wrote: Not even close.. Hello super bowl teams? the 2015 team didn't go to the SB, not that it in and of itself is the only yardstick to measure with, but it has to be in the conversation.. 

I think from a raw talent perspective that us and I believe we had a Top 5 roster easily.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 02:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno, I seem to recall Paul Guenther going into the bye and ripping the defense a new one a couple of years ago, and talking about shaking up the lineup if things didn't go the way he wanted them to.  Then Marvin rebuked all that he said......seems kinda "no accountability-ish" to me.

What moves do you make? It's not like we have a lot of backup guys that are just waiting to be starters.

It's one thing to put players jobs on the line...but you have to have starting quality backups. And if you have that, they're probably playing to begin with.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 01:43 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Marvin took the Bengals from being a,laughing stock
to the dance.
but once at the dance just simply could not get past the
punchbowl line

He got us closer to a league average team definitely during the regular season.

The playoff losses were puzzling. Our rosters always had 1 or 2 glaring weaknesses that the other team exploited in a lot of them.

Could better coaches have 'hid' LB's that can't cover TE's? Or having a bad Center? I have no clue. I'd like to think their GM would address those needs.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 01:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I understand defending Marvin for helping us get out of that 90's swamp but i cannot understand people defending him after going 0-7 in the Playoffs and continually losing to the Steelers over and over again. In the end it is the coaches job to coach up what he has got and Marv failed in the big games time and time again. There is no excuse for this and people that make up for excuses for this weird me out man.

I am going to give our new HC the benefit of the doubt until he fails like Marv did and i doubt he gets near as long of a leash.

And I can't understand all the fans that don't place any blame on the players.

I have news for you.  If our defensive players really were just half-assing it last year and non of them spoke up about it a new coach is not going to fix that problem.  We will need to replace a bunch of players.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 02:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno, I seem to recall Paul Guenther going into the bye and ripping the defense a new one a couple of years ago, and talking about shaking up the lineup if things didn't go the way he wanted them to.  Then Marvin rebuked all that he said......seems kinda "no accountability-ish" to me.

Marvin was against giving playing time to players who had not earned it.  That is just smart coaching.

Like I said before.  Watch other NFL teams.  It is very rare for teams to shake up their starting lineup.  The key to being a good coach is to get your best players to play their best.  You gain nothing by replacing a good player with a poor one.  The team does not get any better and the pooere players start to believe they will get playing time without earning it firat.

BTW Paul made those comments after game 8 of the 2016 season. At that point the Bengals defense ranked 25th in yards pregame, 24th in yards per play, and 20th in points per game.  Over the last 8 games WITHOUT BENCHING ANY STARTERS the defense ranked 3rd in points allowed, 3rd in yards per play, and 9th in yards allowed.  So Marvin clearly knew what he was talking about.  

[*Nately120*]

(05-20-2019, 01:08 PM)NKURyan Wrote: If a 7th round pick had 7 TDs, noone would be questioning why he was on the roster.

John Ross at least has upside as a guy who's still pretty young. Hard for me to look at his treatment as him being held accountable by Marvin when Marv's still running a broken down Vontaze Burfict out there every time he can. If you hold one guy responsible for the mistakes he make while letting mistakes made by others slide at every opportunity that's pretty much the opposite of accountability.

Marv kept running a bad Mike Nugent out there about 3-4 weeks longer than he should've a few years back, and he was costing them games! What accountability?

John Ross had better get his act together and get producing or he's going to become of those "dud vet WRs that are getting in the way of our talented 7th round pick WR's getting on the field."

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 02:40 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What moves do you make? It's not like we have a lot of backup guys that are just waiting to be starters.

It's one thing to put players jobs on the line...but you have to have starting quality backups. And if you have that, they're probably playing to begin with.

That is true, currently, but this was a few years ago......2016 maybe?

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 03:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: That is true, currently, but this was a few years ago......2016 maybe?

I think the main issue with the 2016 team was all the guys we lost in free agency that offseason and a hangover from the Steelers playoff loss.

Free agency steadily has tore this team apart for 2-3 offseasons.

This current offseason we had no losses...but really no gains of note either. (via Free Agency)

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin was against giving playing time to players who had not earned it.  That is just smart coaching.

Like I said before.  Watch other NFL teams.  It is very rare for teams to shake up their starting lineup.  The key to being a good coach is to get your best players to play their best.  You gain nothing by replacing a good player with a poor one.  The team does not get any better and the pooere players start to believe they will get playing time without earning it firat.

BTW Paul made those comments after game 8 of the 2016 season. At that point the Bengals defense ranked 25th in yards pregame, 24th in yards per play, and 20th in points per game.  Over the last 8 games WITHOUT BENCHING ANY STARTERS the defense ranked 3rd in points allowed, 3rd in yards per play, and 9th in yards allowed.  So Marvin clearly knew what he was talking about.  

Yes, but underachievers should have their snaps reduced until they can get their heads out of their ass.  Besides, what did it hurt to let Paulie get that out there, and keep players guessing?  He shot that down hours after Paul said it.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-20-2019, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I can't understand all the fans that don't place any blame on the players.

I have news for you.  If our defensive players really were just half-assing it last year and non of them spoke up about it a new coach is not going to fix that problem.  We will need to replace a bunch of players.

They all deserve blame for the Playoff losses, but 0-7 speaks for itself and so does the record against the Steelers, the one constant is Marvin Lewis. He was here the entire time. Also, if you are trying to say Marv was a great motivator i got news for you, you are wrong.

(05-20-2019, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin was against giving playing time to players who had not earned it.  That is just smart coaching.

Like I said before.  Watch other NFL teams.  It is very rare for teams to shake up their starting lineup.  The key to being a good coach is to get your best players to play their best.  You gain nothing by replacing a good player with a poor one.  The team does not get any better and the pooere players start to believe they will get playing time without earning it firat.

The starters were playing poorly...

It is dumb coaching to continue to start players who are playing poorly. Belichick is a smart coach, he benches or cuts 1st rounders if they are playing poorly. And it is dumb to backstab your DC when he thinks he should make some changes when things are going badly.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin was against giving playing time to players who had not earned it.  That is just smart coaching.

Like I said before.  Watch other NFL teams.  It is very rare for teams to shake up their starting lineup.  The key to being a good coach is to get your best players to play their best.  You gain nothing by replacing a good player with a poor one.  The team does not get any better and the pooere players start to believe they will get playing time without earning it firat.

BTW Paul made those comments after game 8 of the 2016 season. At that point the Bengals defense ranked 25th in yards pregame, 24th in yards per play, and 20th in points per game.  Over the last 8 games WITHOUT BENCHING ANY STARTERS the defense ranked 3rd in points allowed, 3rd in yards per play, and 9th in yards allowed.  So Marvin clearly knew what he was talking about.  

So Paulie obviously motivated them with his "squealing and whining" instead of Marvin coddling them.  Sounds legit to me! :andy:

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think the main issue with the 2016 team was all the guys we lost in free agency that offseason and a hangover from the Steelers playoff loss.

Free agency steadily has tore this team apart for 2-3 offseasons.

This current offseason we had no losses...but really no gains of note either. (via Free Agency)

Yes, but who did we lose on defense in 2016?  The big losses I recall are Z, MLJ, and Sanu.....Gresham.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 03:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: So Paulie obviously motivated them with his "squealing and whining" instead of Marvin coddling them.  Sounds legit to me! :andy:

Paulie couldn't threaten them when the head coach said it wouldn't happen