Okay is everyone done crying and moaning?

[Passepartout]

Indeed time to put up or shut up!

[THE PISTONS]

(07-03-2019, 02:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....cause Marvin got 16 benefits of doubt? 




I've never seen that one.....but I have an idea, although it may violate the CoC as well.....

I'm not disputing that it was time for change. 


BUT - The injuries destroyed the season narrative (4-1 start) totally discounts that Marvin was the coach for that 4-1 start.

Now people are generally talking about health and replacing a terrible coach being what boosts our hopes. It seems logically inconsistent.

Would Taylor have started 5-0?

[*jason*]

(07-04-2019, 11:10 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm not disputing that it was time for change. 


BUT - The injuries destroyed the season narrative (4-1 start) totally discounts that Marvin was the coach for that 4-1 start.

Now people are generally talking about health and replacing a terrible coach being what boosts our hopes. It seems logically inconsistent.

Would Taylor have started 5-0?

Not if you consider the narrative (hate that ****** word) that Marvin should've been fired after 2013 or 2010. That means the team won in spite of Marvin in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015.

[*psychdoctor*]

I think the most depressing aspect is that the O-Line is not fixed. Linebackers also not really fixed. So I am still moaning.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-04-2019, 03:33 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think the most depressing aspect is that the O-Line is not fixed.  Linebackers also not really fixed.  So I am still moaning.

And as I have shown in other threads...many of the teams rated in the Top 10 in PFF LB and OLine rankings...make the playoffs.

They are both important position groups.

But, since we don't really upgrade positions...fans expect coaches to work magic. Pollack last year. Turner this year. It likely won't happen.

Then, next year people will talk about how much better the line will be with Jonah back! Rinse. Repeat.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-04-2019, 02:08 PM)jason Wrote: Not if you consider the narrative (hate that ****** word) that Marvin should've been fired after 2013 or 2010. That means the team won in spite of Marvin in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015.

I don't think it's that simple. Marvin was a pretty good regular season coach. In the playoffs, our rosters generally had glaring weaknesses that got exposed. I wonder what the results would have been had we added that extra free agent or two?

Re: 2015 - The Bengals were drafting and signing character red flag guys for years and it burned them. NO COACH has controlled Burfict. To pin that meltdown solely on Marvin isn't accurate. The Bengals front office deserves part of the blame for assembling such a volatile roster. And yes, I get that Jeremy Hill fumbled. Maybe Marvin forgot to tell his professional RB to hang onto the football?

[BengalsRocker]

(07-04-2019, 03:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't think it's that simple. Marvin was a pretty good regular season coach. In the playoffs, our rosters generally had glaring weaknesses that got exposed. I wonder what the results would have been had we added that extra free agent or two?

Re: 2015 - The Bengals were drafting and signing character red flag guys for years and it burned them. NO COACH has controlled Burfict. To pin that meltdown solely on Marvin isn't accurate. The Bengals front office deserves part of the blame for assembling such a volatile roster. And yes, I get that Jeremy Hill fumbled. Maybe Marvin forgot to tell his professional RB to hang onto the football?

Yeah pretty much but he still couldn't handle the Steelers.

One of the "glaring weaknesses" this team had in the playoffs was Marvin though.  LOL

I'd say usually dominant portions of those teams got nullified more than anything.

Even our highly touted D-line got dismissed regularly by an equally good O-line opponent.

That's when talented coaching can prepare before the game and adjust as it evolves.

Can Zac and his group do this?

LOL  Nobody even knows if he can win a game in the NFL!!

[*jason*]

(07-04-2019, 03:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't think it's that simple. Marvin was a pretty good regular season coach. In the playoffs, our rosters generally had glaring weaknesses that got exposed. I wonder what the results would have been had we added that extra free agent or two?

Re: 2015 - The Bengals were drafting and signing character red flag guys for years and it burned them. NO COACH has controlled Burfict. To pin that meltdown solely on Marvin isn't accurate. The Bengals front office deserves part of the blame for assembling such a volatile roster. And yes, I get that Jeremy Hill fumbled. Maybe Marvin forgot to tell his professional RB to hang onto the football?

I like Marvin. I think he did a good job here. Did he stay too long? Yup. I think he did as good of a job as possible while here though. I was just pointing out how people think about that situation.

Did Mike Zimmer control Burfict? I don't recall too many incidents outta him in 2012 and 2013. I know that he bag tagged that O lineman from Green Bay, but that's about all I can recall. There were some unnecessary roughness calls, but a lot of players get those. He was just playing on fire back then. There was very little extra curricular activity those first couple seasons.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-04-2019, 04:26 PM)jason Wrote: I like Marvin. I think he did a good job here. Did he stay too long? Yup. I think he did as good of a job as possible while here though. I was just pointing out how people think about that situation.

Did Mike Zimmer control Burfict? I don't recall too many incidents outta him in 2012 and 2013. I know that he bag tagged that O lineman from Green Bay, but that's about all I can recall. There were some unnecessary roughness calls, but a lot of players get those. He was just playing on fire back then. There was very little extra curricular activity those first couple seasons.

Pretty sure the Carolina ankle twists were pretty early in his career as well.

[*jason*]

(07-04-2019, 07:20 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Pretty sure the Carolina ankle twists were pretty early in his career as well.

That was in 2014... Zimmer was gone by then. The after the whistle stuff kinda started then.

[samhain]

(07-04-2019, 04:26 PM)jason Wrote: I like Marvin. I think he did a good job here. Did he stay too long? Yup. I think he did as good of a job as possible while here though. I was just pointing out how people think about that situation.

Did Mike Zimmer control Burfict? I don't recall too many incidents outta him in 2012 and 2013. I know that he bag tagged that O lineman from Green Bay, but that's about all I can recall. There were some unnecessary roughness calls, but a lot of players get those. He was just playing on fire back then. There was very little extra curricular activity those first couple seasons.

Marvin got stale.  Coaches in the modern NFL don't get 16 years unless they are Bill Bellichick.  Just think about that for a second.  He was the longest tenured guy next to the best ever.  That odd parallel tells you a lot about how strangely this organization is run compared to the rest of the league.  He got a new lease on life in 2011, but when attrition set in and players were lost, he had no chance of plugging the holes with the poor drafting and anemic free agency approach.  His time was done.

All that said, I have a feeling that if/when the Taylor staff does worse than Marvin did, Marvin will return to respectability in short order in the eyes of Bengal fans.  Taylor is set up to fail in almost every way.  He's a quarterback whisperer with a limited 8 year veteran qb that he didn't pick.  Our best players are coming up on a decade in the league, and their declines are imminent.  You can't have this many consecutive shitty drafts while ignoring free agency and expect talent to be sustained at a high level. 

Marvin had a nice group in place on offense when he got here.  2 of our all-time great wrs were just getting started, there were legit bookend tackles in place, Rudi was waiting in the wings, etc.  On top of that, he got a no-brainer number 1 potentially generational talent at quarterback with his first pick.  Then, Mike Brown actually let him sign a few free agents to boost his defense, and these guys weren't exactly trash in Thornton and James.  

Zac has none of this, and his staff is pretty unimpressive based on past resume.  He's going to faceplant hard for at least a season or 2 while this team hits rock bottom.  By that time, we'll be looking at the 16 seasons without playoff wins as an absolute golden age.  People who called him Merv will be calling him St Marvin.  

It's a scary thought that has a strong potential to become a reality.  Did he need to be let go?  Yes.  Is it possible that he was the only thing that made this team semi-respectable after the lost decade?  Absolutely.  We may be getting ready to witness a New Dey that's not much more than a painful reminder of what a Brown family-controlled football team looks like without a voice of reason to marginally disrupt their apathy/stupidity.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-04-2019, 04:16 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Yeah pretty much but he still couldn't handle the Steelers.

One of the "glaring weaknesses" this team had in the playoffs was Marvin though.  LOL

I'd say usually dominant portions of those teams got nullified more than anything.

Even our highly touted D-line got dismissed regularly by an equally good O-line opponent.

That's when talented coaching can prepare before the game and adjust as it evolves.

Can Zac and his group do this?

LOL  Nobody even knows if he can win a game in the NFL!!

Any Marvin discussion comes back to ownership and philosophy. How many other owners give an 0-7 playoff coach 3 more cracks at winning a playoff game?

Mediocrity permeates this organization from top to bottom. From free agency to lack of scouts...it's all over it.

It's a chicken/egg debate. MB is the chicken and Marvin is the egg.

[BengalsRocker]

(07-05-2019, 02:26 AM)samhain Wrote: Marvin got stale.  Coaches in the modern NFL don't get 16 years unless they are Bill Bellichick.  Just think about that for a second.  He was the longest tenured guy next to the best ever.  That odd parallel tells you a lot about how strangely this organization is run compared to the rest of the league.  He got a new lease on life in 2011, but when attrition set in and players were lost, he had no chance of plugging the holes with the poor drafting and anemic free agency approach.  His time was done.

All that said, I have a feeling that if/when the Taylor staff does worse than Marvin did, Marvin will return to respectability in short order in the eyes of Bengal fans.  Taylor is set up to fail in almost every way.  He's a quarterback whisperer with a limited 8 year veteran qb that he didn't pick.  Our best players are coming up on a decade in the league, and their declines are imminent.  You can't have this many consecutive shitty drafts while ignoring free agency and expect talent to be sustained at a high level. 

Marvin had a nice group in place on offense when he got here.  2 of our all-time great wrs were just getting started, there were legit bookend tackles in place, Rudi was waiting in the wings, etc.  On top of that, he got a no-brainer number 1 potentially generational talent at quarterback with his first pick.  Then, Mike Brown actually let him sign a few free agents to boost his defense, and these guys weren't exactly trash in Thornton and James.  

Zac has none of this, and his staff is pretty unimpressive based on past resume.  He's going to faceplant hard for at least a season or 2 while this team hits rock bottom.  By that time, we'll be looking at the 16 seasons without playoff wins as an absolute golden age.  People who called him Merv will be calling him St Marvin.  

It's a scary thought that has a strong potential to become a reality.  Did he need to be let go?  Yes.  Is it possible that he was the only thing that made this team semi-respectable after the lost decade?  Absolutely.  We may be getting ready to witness a New Dey that's not much more than a painful reminder of what a Brown family-controlled football team looks like without a voice of reason to marginally disrupt their apathy/stupidity.

(07-05-2019, 01:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Any Marvin discussion comes back to ownership and philosophy. How many other owners give an 0-7 playoff coach 3 more cracks at winning a playoff game?

Mediocrity permeates this organization from top to bottom. From free agency to lack of scouts...it's all over it.

It's a chicken/egg debate. MB is the chicken and Marvin is the egg.

I pretty much agree with both of these posts.

It's a Mom & Pop shop that's for sure.

I'm not gonna bag on Zac quite yet but his beginnings do have me question the season to come.

No improvement on the Free Agency approach.

Coaches that are his "buds".

Scraping the bottom of the available barrel for a D coach.

People are very optimistic about Zac as a coach none-the-less an NFL Head Coach.

It wouldn't be a miracle if he performs but he still has the lousy ownership/front office that doesn't do him any favors.

I just has a creeping feeling that ZT will bend over even further than Marvin.

Like Samhain said.  We might be viewing Merv in a different light if Taylor is happy just to get another bowl of gruel.

Couldn't Mike and Co. at least cut the crust off of Zac's tuna on rye?

Make a splash signing and show that he's not a patsy and they truly want a "New Dey"?

Instead we as fans gotta hope this guy is some kind of miracle worker that has a staff that can transform some truly untalented players and overpaid Free Agents into a force while dealing with bad ownership.

[THE PISTONS]

Yeah...the Bengals beat you down. They give an 0-7 coach in the playoffs 3 more seasons to try to win one. Honestly, I think Marvin didn't want to come back anyways.

But, they held onto him so long that the fanbase would have been happy with any HC just as long as it was a change and not Hue Jackson.

And even the Jackson stuff was botched. He won 1 single game in 2 years as Cleveland's HC AND he gets fired and we run out to hire him...and entertain atleast some possibility that he's Marvin's replacement. IF the media backlash wasn't so bad, they probably would have hired him...

How messed up is that? Him being a bad HC that his team immediately started winning when he was hired and we started losing when he came back wasn't enough...they worried about the backlash.

And ZT...Rams assistant WR coach one year and QB coach in year 2...yet fans act like he was the architect of the Rams success the past 2 years.

He had a middling offense as the OC at U of Cincy. He was bad as the Dolphins OC.

Nothing in his past says innovative genius...yet that's our only hope.

[HarleyDog]

(07-06-2019, 04:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...the Bengals beat you down. They give an 0-7 coach in the playoffs 3 more seasons to try to win one. Honestly, I think Marvin didn't want to come back anyways.

But, they held onto him so long that the fanbase would have been happy with any HC just as long as it was a change and not Hue Jackson.

And even the Jackson stuff was botched. He won 1 single game in 2 years as Cleveland's HC AND he gets fired and we run out to hire him...and entertain atleast some possibility that he's Marvin's replacement. IF the media backlash wasn't so bad, they probably would have hired him...

How messed up is that? Him being a bad HC that his team immediately started winning when he was hired and we started losing when he came back wasn't enough...they worried about the backlash.

And ZT...Rams assistant WR coach one year and QB coach in year 2...yet fans act like he was the architect of the Rams success the past 2 years.

He had a middling offense as the OC at U of Cincy. He was bad as the Dolphins OC.

Nothing in his past says innovative genius...yet that's our only hope.

That’s dismal. How can you judge ZT already when he hasn’t coached a game for the Bengals yet? If you go by his past, then you may have trust issues in people, like they don’t learn and grow. I think ZT will come in and show us what it’s like to be competitive in the NFL. He’s been praised by his peers for his intelligence.

Too many people give up too easy and lose hope. That’s not a cheap shot by any means at you, but the negative feedback on whatever this team does to try and get better is baffling. If ZT walks in and stinks up the house, then so be it. At least we tried to fix what hasn’t been working for 16yrs.

I just hope that if he doesn’t do well as HC, that we don’t hang on more than 3-4. I would like to feel the joy of a SB before I die.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-06-2019, 05:57 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: That’s dismal. How can you judge ZT already when he hasn’t coached a game for the Bengals yet? If you go by his past, then you may have trust issues in people, like they don’t learn and grow. I think ZT will come in and show us what it’s like to be competitive in the NFL. He’s been praised by his peers for his intelligence.

Too many people give up too easy and lose hope. That’s not a cheap shot by any means at you, but the negative feedback on whatever this team does to try and get better is baffling. If ZT walks in and stinks up the house, then so be it. At least we tried to fix what hasn’t been working for 16yrs.

I just hope that if he doesn’t do well as HC, that we don’t hang on more than 3-4. I would like to feel the joy of a SB before I die.

Really what positives have their been this offseason?

With some $50+ million cap space, they signed an underwhelming crop of free agents. They apparently identified retaining Hart as a key signing on the offensive line.

Then, the 1st Round pick that would actually upgrade the offensive line was injured and is out for the year after OTA's. Clint Boling who has been our best lineman the last few years, may be done. So the line could be worse.

LB - Which was a huge weakness...Well hasn't been addressed other than throwing a 3rd Round pick at at. Which may or may not pan out.

The team struggled to hire a DC being turned down by a bunch.

For offensive line coach, Pollack quit. Then, they hired a radioactive coach that likely no NFL team outside of Cincy would hire due to controversy off the field.

Many of Taylor's hires have been friends. We need to have a penchant for hiring and signing guys from the Bills, Giants, and Dolphins. (Losers.)

With our 2nd Round pick, we draft a blocking TE who was surprised to go that high. Not that it's a bad pick...it's just that we had a ton of other needs.

We bring back Eifert who is literally hurt every year.

We pin our hopes on health...and bam 2 offensive lineman already likely out for the year...and our best 2 at that.

Taylor could end up being a really good coach, but I question if any coach can win with this front office strategy.

People talk about us copying the Rams, but they have a Top 10 offensive line. We have a bottom 5 one. Line is hugely important.

[THE PISTONS]

So the post before were my criticisms. What would I do?

Generally when you hire a new HC, you upgrade 2-3 spots in free agency. A guy like LJ Fort would have helped us at LB. Saffold at Guard. KJ Wright, Hicks, Mark Barron are some other LB's that would have helped. A veteran like Thomas Davis would be decent for a year with all the young guys we have.

In the draft, Williams in the 1st Round. With the 2nd Round, I got Tackle or LB...which were still major positions of need. Taking a blocking TE was a luxury pick.

Then, for coaching staff...I'm ok with Callahan. On defense, I don't like the DC hire. I don't like the offensive line coach.

I think ZT could be a good coach, but management needs to put him in position to succeed.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-06-2019, 05:57 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: That’s dismal. How can you judge ZT already when he hasn’t coached a game for the Bengals yet? If you go by his past, then you may have trust issues in people, like they don’t learn and grow. I think ZT will come in and show us what it’s like to be competitive in the NFL. He’s been praised by his peers for his intelligence.

Too many people give up too easy and lose hope. That’s not a cheap shot by any means at you, but the negative feedback on whatever this team does to try and get better is baffling. If ZT walks in and stinks up the house, then so be it. At least we tried to fix what hasn’t been working for 16yrs.

I just hope that if he doesn’t do well as HC, that we don’t hang on more than 3-4. I would like to feel the joy of a SB before I die.

The thing is...Taylor DOES have a track record. He had a bad offense as the OC at Cincy. He wasn't a good coordinator with the Dolphins.

With the Rams he was assistant WR coach his 1st year there...and QB Coach his 2nd year there. Yet people on this board act like he was the mastermind behind the Rams...and he'll do that here.

Could he succeed? Sure.

But, Management is still weak here and I've outlined the questionable moves this offseason. It's going to be tough for any coach to win here.

Now, IF you gave Taylor the roster from 5 years ago, I'd be more confident.

[*Nately120*]

(07-06-2019, 10:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The thing is...Taylor DOES have a track record. He had a bad offense as the OC at Cincy. He wasn't a good coordinator with the Dolphins.

With the Rams he was assistant WR coach his 1st year there...and QB Coach his 2nd year there. Yet people on this board act like he was the mastermind behind the Rams...and he'll do that here.

Could he succeed? Sure.

But, Management is still weak here and I've outlined the questionable moves this offseason. It's going to be tough for any coach to win here.

Now, IF you gave Taylor the roster from 5 years ago, I'd be more confident.

As you pointed out, we are going to cite the 2018 Rams as the franchise we are trying to emulate, but so much more of our coaching/personnel moves have a 2014 Dolphins slant to them.  That's less exciting though, so time will tell.  

[THE PISTONS]

(07-07-2019, 12:49 AM)Nately120 Wrote: As you pointed out, we are going to cite the 2018 Rams as the franchise we are trying to emulate, but so much more of our coaching/personnel moves have a 2014 Dolphins slant to them.  That's less exciting though, so time will tell.  

Indeed. And it's debateable how much of the 2018 Rams out new HC was responsible for. He was the QB Coach 1 year. The year before he was the Assistant WR coach.

It's not like he was the architect. He was there. How much did he learn from it?

He could be catastrophically in over his head here...especially with our bad front office.

What I'll say is that with Mixon, Green, Atkins, and Dunlap...we likely have too much talent to bottom out at 3-13. But, that might be exactly what we need to do to get a franchise QB. Green and Atkins likely only have a couple elite years left...so we'll be rebuilding sooner rather than later.