Freakin Bengals Medical Staff

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-23-2019, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Core had the 7th most ST snaps of anyone on the team last year at 189, which was more than any other WR.
Core had 3 combined tackles on ST last year, and none in 2017.
Yes, I realize there is a lot more that goes into ST besides making the tackle, and I have notice Core get down the field quickly on ST plays but I don't know how you can measure the significance of that.


Bengals last year on ST:
KR yards gained per attempt - 24.9 (5th)
PR yards gained per attempt - 10.7 (7th)
KR yards allowed per attempt - 22.7 (tied 15th)
PR yards allowed per attempt - 7.3 (tied 7th)

Bengals did pretty well in ST last year overall but how much Core made that happen is probably unknown unless someone goes back and watches every ST snap he played in.

Core is a decent blocker, that is where his ST's play come in IMO.

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2019, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, I realize there is a lot more that goes into ST besides making the tackle, and I have notice Core get down the field quickly on ST plays but I don't know how you can measure the significance of that.

Everyone has an assignment on coverage.  If everyone just went for the tackle there would be lanes open all over the field.

That being said you would think the best coverage guys would get the most tackles.  But I am pretty sure Core is a blocker on the return teams also.

Funny how when I try to show how good one of our defensive players is with high tackle numbers the haters say tackle numbers are meaningless and just "jumping on the pile".  Then they turn around and try to use nothing but tackle numbers to discredit a guy like Core.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2019, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Everyone has an assignment on coverage.  If everyone just went for the tackle there would be lanes open all over the field.

That being said you would think the best coverage guys would get the most tackles.  But I am pretty sure Core is a blocker on the return teams also.

Funny how when I try to show how good one of our defensive players is with high tackle numbers the haters say tackle numbers are meaningless and just "jumping on the pile".  Then they turn around and try to use nothing but tackle numbers to discredit a guy like Core.

Tackles definitely aren't meaningless. Not everyone who "jumps on the pile" gets credit for a tackle.
Those who oppose tackle stats likely take the view of "you can make a tackle 20 yards downfield" so the value is diminished. In that case, I can see how tackles could be valued less compared to turnovers, sacks, and TFLs. However, on the flip side, a tackle prevents a score, so every tackle has SOME value.

Basically, everyone wants something that's measurable. That's how you (more) quickly determine value. In the case of ST, it's extremely hard to put measurables on each individual and therefore it's really difficult to determine how good someone is.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2019, 02:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Core is a decent blocker, that is where his ST's play come in IMO.

Tate's been reported as blocking well recently too though. I know he's not as fast as Core, but couldn't he be fine taking Core's ST snaps?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-23-2019, 03:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Tate's been reported as blocking well recently too though. I know he's not as fast as Core, but couldn't he be fine taking Core's ST snaps?

If Tate is healthy, yeah.

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2019, 03:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote:  In the case of ST, it's extremely hard to put measurables on each individual and therefore it's really difficult to determine how good someone is.

Agreed.

[HarleyDog]

(08-23-2019, 02:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am a knockin'. 

[Whatever]

(08-23-2019, 03:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Tate's been reported as blocking well recently too though. I know he's not as fast as Core, but couldn't he be fine taking Core's ST snaps?

They aren't interchangeable.  Core is 4.45 guy and Tate is a 4.68 guy.  Tate isn't fast enough to carry out the same assignments.  You can put Tate on ST's, but he has to perform roles that you'd have a LB or TE performing.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-23-2019, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know many people look at injuries and say "That hit would have injured any player", but there are some guys who are just put together better.

Jason Witten was a full time starter his entire career at a high impact position (TE) and he only missed ONE games in 15 years.

While many football players claim that EVERY NFL player has had a concussion at some point in practice or a game John Lynch, who was one of the hardest hitting players I ever saw, claims he NEVER had a single concussion in college or 15 years in the NFL.

I'll take what Lynch says with a grain of salt. It's much more likely he just doesn't recognize or know the signs or symptoms of a concussion. Take yourself for example. You claimed you never had a concussion, but got knocked unconscious by a blow to the head with a shot put. Your unconsciousness was a sign of temporary brain dysfunction due to a TBI from the shot put hitting the back of your skull hard enough to cause your brain to rattle around inside your skull which is why you were unconscious.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2019, 04:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: They aren't interchangeable.  Core is 4.45 guy and Tate is a 4.68 guy.  Tate isn't fast enough to carry out the same assignments.  You can put Tate on ST's, but he has to perform roles that you'd have a LB or TE performing.  

That's fair. Tate won't get down the field as fast as Core.

What I've seen of Core on ST (when I've noticed him) was that he is one of the first people to the returner. Couldn't that role be filled by a fast LB (Jefferson runs 4.52) or DB? Brandon Wilson is faster than Core and has more experience tackling given he's played defense. Dennard runs a 4.51, as did BW Webb. Damion Willis was timed at a 4.48 at his Pro Day (typically Pro Days are a few hundredths of a second faster than what Combine clocks you at).

My point is there are other about-as-fast guys besides Core that could probably fill the speed that Core has on ST and give Tate a role blocking earlier in coverage instead.

[Luvnit2]

(08-23-2019, 04:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's fair. Tate won't get down the field as fast as Core.

What I've seen of Core on ST (when I've noticed him) was that he is one of the first people to the returner. Couldn't that role be filled by a fast LB (Jefferson runs 4.52) or DB? Brandon Wilson is faster than Core and has more experience tackling given he's played defense. Dennard runs a 4.51, as did BW Webb. Damion Willis was timed at a 4.48 at his Pro Day (typically Pro Days are a few hundredths of a second faster than what Combine clocks you at).

My point is there are other about-as-fast guys besides Core that could probably fill the speed that Core has on ST and give Tate a role blocking earlier in coverage instead.

If special team players were average, they would not be on SPECIAL TEAMS.

Seriously, Simmons has to mold a unit of 11 guys on each team, it is not as easy as it looks as these guys fill multiple roles of the different special teams. Core or Tate may be the gunner on punt coverage team and blocker on outside on punt return team, 2 different responsibilities they needs to perform well.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-23-2019, 05:01 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If special team players were average, they would not be on SPECIAL TEAMS.

Seriously, Simmons has to mold a unit of 11 guys on each team, it is not as easy as it looks as these guys fill multiple roles of the different special teams. Core or Tate may be the gunner on punt coverage team and blocker on outside on punt return team, 2 different responsibilities they needs to perform well.

Has to be said, Simmons has been giving Tate props.

So I say he makes the team on this alone.

[Whatever]

(08-23-2019, 04:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's fair. Tate won't get down the field as fast as Core.

What I've seen of Core on ST (when I've noticed him) was that he is one of the first people to the returner. Couldn't that role be filled by a fast LB (Jefferson runs 4.52) or DB? Brandon Wilson is faster than Core and has more experience tackling given he's played defense. Dennard runs a 4.51, as did BW Webb. Damion Willis was timed at a 4.48 at his Pro Day (typically Pro Days are a few hundredths of a second faster than what Combine clocks you at).

My point is there are other about-as-fast guys besides Core that could probably fill the speed that Core has on ST and give Tate a role blocking earlier in coverage instead.

Core's responsibility is likely outside contain, similar to setting the edge on defense.  His main job is to not let the return man get outside of him and force them up the middle of the field into the rest of the coverage unit. You could put a DB out there instead, but then you're putting one of your (presumably) better tacklers in a position to not make tackles, unless you're Dre who was a beast of a gunner.  

I'm sure there's other guys that can do Core's job, just not as well.  If they were as good or better, he'd likely have been cut  awhile ago.

Let me say that I don't like it all. I wanted Core gone last year.  However, the coverage units have been putrid in preseason and I think more of emphasis on that.  If you can stash Tate on IR, I think you do it.  Willis has outplayed him and should get a crack at the base offense before Tate, anyways.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-23-2019, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Core had the 7th most ST snaps of anyone on the team last year at 189, which was more than any other WR.
Core had 3 combined tackles on ST last year, and none in 2017.
Yes, I realize there is a lot more that goes into ST besides making the tackle, and I have notice Core get down the field quickly on ST plays but I don't know how you can measure the significance of that.


Bengals last year on ST:
KR yards gained per attempt - 24.9 (5th)
PR yards gained per attempt - 10.7 (7th)
KR yards allowed per attempt - 22.7 (tied 15th)
PR yards allowed per attempt - 7.3 (tied 7th)

Bengals did pretty well in ST last year overall but how much Core made that happen is probably unknown unless someone goes back and watches every ST snap he played in.

So, basically, he's very replaceable. 

[fredtoast]

(08-23-2019, 04:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'll take what Lynch says with a grain of salt. It's much more likely he just doesn't recognize or know the signs or symptoms of a concussion. Take yourself for example. You claimed you never had a concussion, but got knocked unconscious by a blow to the head with a shot put. Your unconsciousness was a sign of temporary brain dysfunction due to a TBI from the shot put hitting the back of your skull hard enough to cause your brain to rattle around inside your skull which is why you were unconscious.

This is correct.  Lynch may not identify the times he had a concussion.


Or maybe his memory is so badly damaged he does not remember all the concussions he suffered. 

But I am pretty sure Lynch handed out a few concussions back when there was no penalty for helmet to helmet.  He hit like a sledgehammer.

[XenoMorph]

(08-23-2019, 06:12 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So, basically, he's very replaceable. 

not until one of these backup linebacks learn to play teams....they were talking like none are worth a damn there thinking only keeping 4 LBers (from current roster)

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-23-2019, 12:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is luck.  But I believe the "luck" has to do with genetics.

Just like some people have natural gifts for playing music or doing complex math in their heads.  I think some guys are just genetically superior when it comes to staying healthy.  Stronger ligaments, more flexible muscles, denser bones, something like that.

Agreed, same with Tony Gonzalez. Dude missed 2 games as a TE in 17 years.

You can't just luck into 3 missed games at TE in 32 combined years. There has to be some explanations to it as well.

Think I saw some show on people with abnormally sturdy bodies. Some kid in either Central or South America (I forget) who got hit by a car on video camera, and popped right back up like nothing was wrong and had 0 injuries from it. They did tests and his bones were like 8x the density of a normal human, comparable to a gorilla's bones.

Not saying Witten or Gonzalez are rocking gorilla bones, but when you play that long, take that many hits, and stay that healthy, it's more than just luck.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-23-2019, 06:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: not until one of these backup linebacks learn to play teams....they were talking like none are worth a damn there thinking only keeping 4 LBers (from current roster)

I'm sorry, but i don't buy it. This argument has come up before regarding Core and STs. He's not so valuable that he can't be replaced by someone else. He doesn't make a ton of tackles...hell, he barely makes any tackles at all on teams and i'm not about to hear "how he gets downfield quick and disrupts". That's made up BS. 

The guy has definitely improved as a receiver this year but what's more important, 189 snaps on teams (11.8 a game) or 311 snaps on offense (19.4 a game)? Which one is more likely, on a consistent basis, to lead to points? You simply DON'T  keep a guy on the roster over another guy when the other guy can give you more in those 311 snaps. There are other guys on the roster that can fill out teams and they're not so much worse than Core that they're going to be giving up touchdowns and long gains all the time. 

Yes, YES!!  I'm on a crusade to crush another out-dated, ridiculous, over-used cliche..."we have to keep him cause teams!!11!11!!"

[Whatever]

(08-23-2019, 11:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm sorry, but i don't buy it. This argument has come up before regarding Core and STs. He's not so valuable that he can't be replaced by someone else. He doesn't make a ton of tackles...hell, he barely makes any tackles at all on teams and i'm not about to hear "how he gets downfield quick and disrupts". That's made up BS. 

The guy has definitely improved as a receiver this year but what's more important, 189 snaps on teams (11.8 a game) or 311 snaps on offense (19.4 a game)? Which one is more likely, on a consistent basis, to lead to points? You simply DON'T  keep a guy on the roster over another guy when the other guy can give you more in those 311 snaps. There are other guys on the roster that can fill out teams and they're not so much worse than Core that they're going to be giving up touchdowns and long gains all the time. 

Yes, YES!!  I'm on a crusade to crush another out-dated, ridiculous, over-used cliche..."we have to keep him cause teams!!11!11!!"

How often do you expect your #5 or #6 WR to play almost 1/3 of the offensive snaps?

Assuming Green, Boyd, Ross, Erickson, and Malone are locks and Willis has played his way into the 6th spot, here's the stats of the guys fighting for the 7th spot...

Core=8 catches/9 targets, 85 yards, 10.62 YPC, 0 TD's, 5 1st Downs, 25 YAC
Tate=8 catches/11 targets, 68yards, 8.5 YPC, 1 TD's, 4 1st Downs, 8 YAC
Morgan=5 catches/8 targets, 63 yards, 12.6 YPC, 0 TD's, 3 1st Downs, 33 YAC
Bryant=5 catches/5 targets, 71 yards, 14.2 YPC, 0 TD's, 3 1st Downs, 9 YAC
Sharp=4 catches/7 targets, 42 yards, 10.5 YPC, 0 TD's, 2 1st Downs, 22 YAC

Ranking them by raw stats...

Catches=1(t).Core, Tate 3(t).Morgan, Bryant 5.Sharp
Yards=1.Core 2.Bryant 3.Tate 4.Morgan 5.Sharp
TD's=1.Tate 2(t).Core, Bryant, Morgan, Sharp
1st Downs=1.Core 2.Tate 3(t).Morgan, Bryant 5.Sharp
YAC=1.Morgan 2.Core 3.Sharp 4.Bryant 5.Tate

By average...
Catch %=1.Bryant 2.Core 3.Tate 4.Morgan 5.Sharp
YPC=1.Bryant, 2.Morgan 3.Core 4.Sharp 5.Tate
YPT=1.Bryant 2.Core 3.Morgan 4.Tate 5.Sharp
TD%=1.Tate 2(t).Core, Bryant, Morgan, Sharp
1st%=1(t).Morgan, Bryant 3.Core 4(t).Tate, Sharp
YAC/Catch=1.Morgan 2.Sharp. 3.Core 4.Bryant 5.Tate

The issue is that, sadly, it isn't like these guys are playing Core off the roster as position players.  He's equally if not more productive than all of them.  If we're talking about dropping Core for one of these guys, it's about potential, not production, and you can stash Tate's potential on IR.  Statistically speaking, though, Tate really isn't impressive, aside from the 1 TD.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-24-2019, 01:08 AM)Whatever Wrote: How often do you expect your #5 or #6 WR to play almost 1/3 of the offensive snaps?

Assuming Green, Boyd, Ross, Erickson, and Malone are locks and Willis has played his way into the 6th spot, here's the stats of the guys fighting for the 7th spot...

Core=8 catches/9 targets, 85 yards, 10.62 YPC, 0 TD's, 5 1st Downs, 25 YAC
Tate=8 catches/11 targets, 68yards, 8.5 YPC, 1 TD's, 4 1st Downs, 8 YAC
Morgan=5 catches/8 targets, 63 yards, 12.6 YPC, 0 TD's, 3 1st Downs, 33 YAC
Bryant=5 catches/5 targets, 71 yards, 14.2 YPC, 0 TD's, 3 1st Downs, 9 YAC
Sharp=4 catches/7 targets, 42 yards, 10.5 YPC, 0 TD's, 2 1st Downs, 22 YAC

Ranking them by raw stats...

Catches=1(t).Core, Tate 3(t).Morgan, Bryant 5.Sharp
Yards=1.Core 2.Bryant 3.Tate 4.Morgan 5.Sharp
TD's=1.Tate 2(t).Core, Bryant, Morgan, Sharp
1st Downs=1.Core 2.Tate 3(t).Morgan, Bryant 5.Sharp
YAC=1.Morgan 2.Core 3.Sharp 4.Bryant 5.Tate

By average...
Catch %=1.Bryant 2.Core 3.Tate 4.Morgan 5.Sharp
YPC=1.Bryant, 2.Morgan 3.Core 4.Sharp 5.Tate
YPT=1.Bryant 2.Core 3.Morgan 4.Tate 5.Sharp
TD%=1.Tate 2(t).Core, Bryant, Morgan, Sharp
1st%=1(t).Morgan, Bryant 3.Core 4(t).Tate, Sharp
YAC/Catch=1.Morgan 2.Sharp. 3.Core 4.Bryant 5.Tate

The issue is that, sadly, it isn't like these guys are playing Core off the roster as position players.  He's equally if not more productive than all of them.  If we're talking about dropping Core for one of these guys, it's about potential, not production, and you can stash Tate's potential on IR.  Statistically speaking, though, Tate really isn't impressive, aside from the 1 TD.

The numbers i gave were Cores exact snap counts last year. 

Malone isn't a lock and Malone and Erickson aren't (in my opinion) ahead of Tate as a down by down receiver. There's a reason he and Willis were chosen to start last night; they deserved it by their practice and play in games this preseason. There's also a reason they pulled him so quick after the injury. He was on the sideline afterwards for a short time with an ice wrap on his knee, then nothing else (brace or crutches) after that. They're not going to risk him furthering the injury because they value his contribution in the upcoming seaon. If he was fighting for a roster spot, he more than likely comes back into the game. 

Core has improved this preseason but he still doesn't offer as much physically or athletically as Tate does. If you don't think he's impressive (more than Core or at all) then i can't really do anything for you. You're focusing on things like separation and YAC when they don't amount to anything when you put a guy on the field and need him to make a catch on 3rd down or in the red zone. Tate has proven he can make contested/tough catches. Up until this year, Core hasn't shown anything of note while Tate has wowed plenty of people in practice and in games. He hasn't set the world on fire but Core hasn't even found the matches yet.

Last note; there's no way in hell you can stash Tate on the practice squad. None, nada, zip, zero, nil.