How Much Power Does ZT Have?

[2MinutesHate]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25653722/bengals-coach-marvin-lewis-part-ways-6-10-season

It a was mutual decision.

However, I believe Mike Brown would have fired Marvin had he not agreed to step down. This was a way for Marvin to save face and I think Brown was trying to do him a solid here.

Having said that, I don't believe ZT has anywhere near the power some may think because this team did absolutely nothing to improve through free agency, which either makes ZT blind or perhaps his hands are tied. I mean outside of Glenn (and he's not even playing), could any of the guys on our OL start for another team? And for God's sake the poor LB's! If these two position groups aren't a complete mess and don't take this team down, I'm going to be absolutely giddy.

We're going to see in a very, very short time. Bring it on, Seattle....

[Whatever]

(09-03-2019, 09:40 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I seem to remember Keith Rivers, Rey Maualuga, Rashaad Jenty, Jonathan Joseph and many, many others all starting as rookies.  Might want to look up some past rosters, to see for yourself. 

Jenty and Rey weren't 1st round picks, so I'm not sure what they have to do with anything.

You have 1st round picks that started immediately.  You have 1st round picks like Hall, Joseph, and Pollack that didn't crack the starting lineup until midway through their rookie years.  Perry didn't become a starter at all.

Point being, if the FO was dictating to Marvin who dressed on gameday, they would logically also be dictating he played 1st round picks, as well.  Since so many 1st round picks didn't play immediately, we can infer that Marvin had power over playing them, and likely also had power over the gameday roster.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-03-2019, 02:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Jenty and Rey weren't 1st round picks, so I'm not sure what they have to do with anything.

You have 1st round picks that started immediately.  You have 1st round picks like Hall, Joseph, and Pollack that didn't crack the starting lineup until midway through their rookie years.  Perry didn't become a starter at all.

Point being, if the FO was dictating to Marvin who dressed on gameday, they would logically also be dictating he played 1st round picks, as well.  Since so many 1st round picks didn't play immediately, we can infer that Marvin had power over playing them, and likely also had power over the gameday roster.

My point is that YOU said that prior to 2011, Marvin didn't start rookie 1st round picks. (which I misread as simply "rookies")  Anyway, even though there are guys that weren't 1st round picks on that list that came off of the top of my head, there are still 2 very good examples that refute your claim that Marvin didn't start 1st round draft picks in their rookie year.

[CJD]

(09-03-2019, 02:04 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.I)pretty much common sense that him an Brown had a great relationship.
2.) dude was here for 16 years I think it's fair to say that Marvin just wanted a new opportunity.
3.) Marvin had a going away news conference how many guys do that after being fired.

There's no doubt Brown respected Marvin.

But he fired him. If Marvin wanted to stay, he would have still been fired.

Therefore it was not mutual.

[*psychdoctor*]

Define "power."

[fortyyearfan]

(09-03-2019, 02:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Jenty and Rey weren't 1st round picks, so I'm not sure what they have to do with anything.

You have 1st round picks that started immediately.  You have 1st round picks like Hall, Joseph, and Pollack that didn't crack the starting lineup until midway through their rookie years.  Perry didn't become a starter at all.

Point being, if the FO was dictating to Marvin who dressed on gameday, they would logically also be dictating he played 1st round picks, as well.  Since so many 1st round picks didn't play immediately, we can infer that Marvin had power over playing them, and likely also had power over the gameday roster.

Our staff is going to get a linebacker and an Offensive lineman next couple weeks. I am hoping this happens.

[WestCoastBengalsFan]

First you get da head coach job, then you get da wins, then you get da the power. - Tony (Mike Brown) Montana

[Whatever]

(09-03-2019, 02:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My point is that YOU said that prior to 2011, Marvin didn't start rookie 1st round picks. (which I misread as simply "rookies")  Anyway, even though there are guys that weren't 1st round picks on that list that came off of the top of my head, there are still 2 very good examples that refute your claim that Marvin didn't start 1st round draft picks in their rookie year.

No, I said "Marvin kept rookies on the bench prior to 2011", which you interpreted as "Marvin never played rookies.". Whether that's a reading comprehension fail on your part or you're just creating a straw man argument to argue against, I don't know,  nor do I particularly care.  I never stated Marvin didn't play rookies or he kept all 1st round picks on the bench.  

[NKURyan]

(09-03-2019, 10:33 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think we'd like to believe that.

Reality is he was an Assistant WR coach 2 years ago and a QB Coach last year. Most teams would not hire a guy that inexperienced as a HC. So it's not like he had a ton of leverage.

It was a weird coaching search this year for all of the vacancies. Usually 2-3 teams compete to hire the same guy. This year, it seems like all of the teams had different targets.

Someone already pointed out how many other teams hired incredibly inexperienced head coaches last season, so I'll just point out that the only reason there wasn't any competition for ZT is because we were the only team willing to be patient enough to hire him. I remember reading a bunch of lists last season about head coaching candidates and ZT's name popped up on every single one of them.

And for all the criticism of how unprepared ZT is, I'll point out that he's yet to have any of the missteps some of these other coaches have made. Kitchens has gotten in to it with the media and Flores got stuck in the Kenny Stills/ownership drama. People keep expecting him to fail but he hasn't done anything to make us think it's coming yet.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 06:17 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Someone already pointed out how many other teams hired incredibly inexperienced head coaches last season, so I'll just point out that the only reason there wasn't any competition for ZT is because we were the only team willing to be patient enough to hire him. I remember reading a bunch of lists last season about head coaching candidates and ZT's name popped up on every single one of them.

And for all the criticism of how unprepared ZT is, I'll point out that he's yet to have any of the missteps some of these other coaches have made. Kitchens has gotten in to it with the media and Flores got stuck in the Kenny Stills/ownership drama. People keep expecting him to fail but he hasn't done anything to make us think it's coming yet.

Someone pointed it out, but the fact is that most of those guys had seasons of OC or DC experience with the exception of Flores who coached under Belicheck for years.

ZT is more inexperienced than both Nagy and LaFleur.

And ZT's track record has been pretty mediocre.

[NKURyan]

(09-03-2019, 07:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Someone pointed it out, but the fact is that most of those guys had seasons of OC or DC experience with the exception of Flores who coached under Belicheck for years.

ZT is more inexperienced than both Nagy and LaFleur.

And ZT's track record has been pretty mediocre.

Uh, Freddie Kitchens? He's got a whopping half season of offensive coordinator experience at ANY level yet was handed the keys to supposedly the hottest up-and-coming team in the league.

You never seem to bring him up when the Browns come up around here...

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 07:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Someone pointed it out, but the fact is that most of those guys had seasons of OC or DC experience with the exception of Flores who coached under Belicheck for years.

ZT is more inexperienced than both Nagy and LaFleur.

And ZT's track record has been pretty mediocre.

Are seasons of being a coordinator the same as being a HC?  End of story.  All those guys had the exact same amount of HC experience---NONE.  Let's stick to apples and apples, please.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2019, 08:48 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Uh, Freddie Kitchens? He's got a whopping half season of offensive coordinator experience at ANY level yet was handed the keys to supposedly the hottest up-and-coming team in the league.

You never seem to bring him up when the Browns come up around here...

Kitchens has been working in the NFL more than TWICE as long as Taylor (13 seasons to 6).

Kitchens also was a college coach for 5 years compared to Taylor's one.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 08:48 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Uh, Freddie Kitchens? He's got a whopping half season of offensive coordinator experience at ANY level yet was handed the keys to supposedly the hottest up-and-coming team in the league.

You never seem to bring him up when the Browns come up around here...

I'm not a fan of the Kitchens hire by far. Just because he was a good OC for half a season doesn't mean he makes a good HC. That has the potential to derail them.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:10 PM)McC Wrote: Are seasons of being a coordinator the same as being a HC?  End of story.  All those guys had the exact same amount of HC experience---NONE.  Let's stick to apples and apples, please.

Doesn't matter. Do you think an Assistant WR coach is running practice for an offense? Nope.

Offensive and Defensive Coordinators are.

Then we hired all inexperienced coordinators too.

Atleast we're copying the Rams playbook!

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Kitchens has been working in the NFL more than TWICE as long as Taylor (13 seasons to 6).

Kitchens also was a college coach for 5 years compared to Taylor's one.

Kitchens, until the coup d'etat last year, was never more than a position coach at any level.  

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Doesn't matter. Do you think an Assistant WR coach is running practice for an offense? Nope.

Offensive and Defensive Coordinators are.

Then we hired all inexperienced coordinators too.

Atleast we're copying the Rams playbook!

Of course it matters.  Are you daft?

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2019, 09:15 PM)McC Wrote: Kitchens, until the coup d'etat last year, was never more than a position coach at any level.  

But when he got his chance he was good.

Taylor has had a couple of shots at OC and failed.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 09:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But when he got his chance he was good.

Taylor has had a couple of shots at OC and failed.

And that's the scary part.

Some guys get 1 opportunity and seize it like McVay. ZT has had opportunities and FAILED...repeatedly.

Apparently that impressed the Bengals though!

[McC]

(09-03-2019, 09:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But when he got his chance he was good.

Taylor has had a couple of shots at OC and failed.

I know you're rooting against him.  I won't waste any more breath.

Coordinator success means HC success? Is that how it works?