The Chargers had me thinking the Bengals roster

[BengalChris]

(09-04-2019, 06:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Derwin James is out for half the year.
Melvin Gordon is holding out.
Those are 2 big time playmakers not taking
The field Sunday.
Yet they are still considered a potential SB
Team minus those 2.
But the Bengals are regarded as a bottom tier
Team by most.
Can you if the Bengals were missing Atkins and
Mixon now how the conversation would go?
Are the Chargers that much better than
The Bengals?

I read on this board that occasionally that these are Marvin's players and things will go slow to learn ZT's scheme so expect a slow start. But that's just a preemptive excuse for failure, if it comes. When you look at most of the mainstays on the Bengals roster: Green, Atkins, Mixon, Kirkpatrick, Willie Jackson, Dunlap, Dalton, Eifert, plus the recent good picks in Boyd, Bates, Hubbard, Lawson, they are all scheme versatile. I'm sure I've left someone off that list who have excelled, not intentionally.

Green would be good in any system, except maybe the triple option and even then they'd throw him the ball from time to time.

Atkins can be a 4-3 DT or a 3-4 DE on basically any team.

Willie Jackson is a very good corner and no matter what you play on defense he'll be able to cover top WRs.

Dunlap has the size to be a DE in either a 3-4 or 4-3. He's a good pass rusher and he sets the edge well in the running game and bats down lots of balls.

Bates would be good on any team in any defensive scheme.

Boyd can play, regardless of the scheme and he has outside skills, not just slot skills.

What running game would Mixon not excel at? None.

All those are good players and certainly known names around the league. Last year, with our worse than this year's coaching staff, they started 4-1 beating two eventual playoff teams in the first two weeks and this team jumped in the power rankings, until injuries set in and it took a dive.

Certainly this team would be ranked in the middle of the pack or higher.

Why not? The organization has a reputation for being dysfunctional at the top, which unsettles everything below.

Really, this team should come out smokin'. Dalton can play within himself and the coaches should know what he can and cannot do, so the scheme should reflect that, if it's the right scheme for this team.

Personally, I believe we have a good shot at winning this Sunday. The question marks mostly have to do with the coaching staff, not the players.

 

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(09-04-2019, 10:45 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I read on this board that occasionally that these are Marvin's players and things will go slow to learn ZT's scheme so expect a slow start. But that's just a preemptive excuse for failure, if it comes. When you look at most of the mainstays on the Bengals roster: Green, Atkins, Mixon, Kirkpatrick, Willie Jackson, Dunlap, Dalton, Eifert, plus the recent good picks in Boyd, Bates, Hubbard, Lawson, they are all scheme versatile. I'm sure I've left someone off that list who have excelled, not intentionally.

Green would be good in any system, except maybe the triple option and even then they'd throw him the ball from time to time.

Atkins can be a 4-3 DT or a 3-4 DE on basically any team.

Willie Jackson is a very good corner and no matter what you play on defense he'll be able to cover top WRs.

Dunlap has the size to be a DE in either a 3-4 or 4-3. He's a good pass rusher and he sets the edge well in the running game and bats down lots of balls.

Bates would be good on any team in any defensive scheme.

Boyd can play, regardless of the scheme and he has outside skills, not just slot skills.

What running game would Mixon not excel at? None.

All those are good players and certainly known names around the league. Last year, with our worse than this year's coaching staff, they started 4-1 beating two eventual playoff teams in the first two weeks and this team jumped in the power rankings, until injuries set in and it took a dive.

Certainly this team would be ranked in the middle of the pack or higher.

Why not? The organization has a reputation for being dysfunctional at the top, which unsettles everything below.

Really, this team should come out smokin'. Dalton can play within himself and the coaches should know what he can and cannot do, so the scheme should reflect that, if it's the right scheme for this team.

Personally, I believe we have a good shot at winning this Sunday. The question marks mostly have to do with the coaching staff, not the players.

 

I think you're asking the wrong question. It's not whether players like Dunlap and Atkins can play 4-3 or 3-4 but which system they will be most effective in.

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2019, 10:24 PM)804 fan Wrote: I beg to differ, if you remember the game last year the Bengals had the game won but Marvin made a bad call for the 2 point conversion then Lazor dialed up a pityful run call out of a predictable formation. We had key injuries and still took the lead late in the game.

I  beg to differ.  That never happened.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-04-2019, 06:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Derwin James is out for half the year.
Melvin Gordon is holding out.
Those are 2 big time playmakers not taking
The field Sunday.
Yet they are still considered a potential SB
Team minus those 2.
But the Bengals are regarded as a bottom tier
Team by most.
Can you if the Bengals were missing Atkins and
Mixon now how the conversation would go?
Are the Chargers that much better than
The Bengals?

I think the NFL is trying as hard as they can to promote the two LA teams.  Biggest market in the NFL.

No, I don't believe their roster is that much better, if at all, compared to the Bengals.  

Derwin James is amazing, and I really wish he had ended up here.  However, with him out their defense is simply not the same.  They (the NFL and ESPN) also love them some Phillip Rivers.  He seems like a good guy, although he always came off a bit juvenile early in his career with his trash talking.  They have a couple premier DEs, but have trouble staying healthy.  The Bengals simply get no attention because they are such a small market/fan base.  Our roster is as good as any in the NFL.  Yep, I believe that.  Every team has holes.  Ours is at LB.  (More on that later).  Every team has depth issues.  The roster will only go as far as the coaching and scheme take them.  I have said it many times:  Look at Goff before and after McVay.  Third stringer as the 1st overall pick to Super Bowl QB.  Coaching and scheme matter a great deal.

Coaching and scheme has been OK here,  and not much else.  So, how did we finish?  Largely OK for seven straight years with Dalton and Green, but never great.  What I like about Taylor is he seems to have a fresher, more innovative approach to the offense.  I have very little understanding of what to expect from the defense, although that 5 man front intrigues me.  We ALWAYS seemed lost on how to attack maximum protection.  

Going back to the LB discussion.  Sure, it is arguably our biggest weakness especially in terms of depth.  But what if you looked at Hubbard and Lawson as OLB that are going to rush the QB instead of how we traditionally view the LB position here?  Vigil is very capable but needs to stay healthy.  Brown lost 20 lbs in the offseasn and was playing well before an injury.  Jordan Evans is serviceable as a backup.  And then we have the athletic, but inexperienced Jordan Evans as the starting WILL when in base 4-3.  It isn't the disaster we saw last year, which was both decimated by injuries and neutered by Teryl Austin's scheme.  Our worst position group on the entire team will at least be solid this season.

The offensive line takes a lot of heat, and yes, I am worried about Cordy Glenn and the concussion protocol.  They have found a group that is playing to their strengths.  No longer trying to make a square peg fit in to a round hole:  Price is a better guard than center.  Hopkins is a better center than guard.  Ogbuehi is a better bench than anywhere on the field.  And the much maligned Bobby Hart has been a solid run blocker and will be a better fit athletically for this offense.  

The offensive weaponry is also going to help the line.  Having Eifert, Ross, Mixon, Boyd, Willis, and even Uzo/Sample on the field together will keep defenses honest.  There will be mismatches against every defense and I believe Dalton will be able to find it.  

The defensive line has a lot of talent and competition for playing time.  They could really help out the LB and secondary by improving the pass rush.  Judging by what I am seeing out of Hubbard and Lawson, combined with what I know about Geno and Dunlap, I am very optimistic that this group will be leaps and bounds better than a year ago.  

All told, this team only has a poor reputation and it was largely earned by health and poor coaching.  They have the talent and we will soon see what kind of coaching we have in the toughest environment of the league.  

[*jason*]

(09-04-2019, 06:27 PM)McC Wrote: Yet the Chargers eked out a 5 point win over a Bengal team that had a long list of starters gone.  Are they really?

Y'all remember when the Browns went 1-15? The Chargers were that 1... They ain't going to no Super Bowl.

[Housh]

Can’t believe anyone thinks we’ll be good with our offensive line.

[BoomerFan]

If this is true, shouldn't we be trading with the Chargers? I mean those are two positions we have too much talent at. If they don't have an LB or OLinemen we could use at least we could get some mid-round picks for a running back (I never liked keeping 4) or DE/DT.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-04-2019, 06:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Derwin James is out for half the year.
Melvin Gordon is holding out.
Those are 2 big time playmakers not taking
The field Sunday.
Yet they are still considered a potential SB
Team minus those 2.
But the Bengals are regarded as a bottom tier
Team by most.
Can you if the Bengals were missing Atkins and
Mixon now how the conversation would go?
Are the Chargers that much better than
The Bengals?

Rivers is the focal point of the Chargers. He's a better QB than Dalton. Rivers is arguably a HOF QB.
Chargers are coming off a 12-4 season whereas the Bengals 6-10 with a whole new group of coaches including a HC who has never been a HC before.
Also, it's easier to replace a RB and safety than a top-flight WR1. The Bengals' offense goes through AJ and it's proven how much worse the team is without him.

One could argue why wouldn't people give the benefit of the doubt for the unknown with Taylor? Well, look back to 2017 with Sean McVay taking over the 4-12 Rams. The Week 1 NFL.com Power Rankings in 2017 had the Rams projected as 29th in the league. It's natural to be skeptical of success without evidence to support success.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-05-2019, 09:15 AM)jason Wrote: Y'all remember when the Browns went 1-15? The Chargers were that 1... They ain't going to no Super Bowl.

Eh, the Rams sucked a couple years ago...

Things can change quickly in the NFL.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-05-2019, 11:15 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Eh, the Rams sucked a couple years ago...

Things can change quickly in the NFL.

The Rams also upgraded personnel that offseason.

But, yes anything can happen.

[BengalChris]

(09-05-2019, 07:55 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I think you're asking the wrong question. It's not whether players like Dunlap and Atkins can play 4-3 or 3-4 but which system they will be most effective in.

I believe you're missing the point. The scheme should reflect the team's existing players. There's enough good players on this team to win. This is proven by the fact that they won against good teams last year, when healthy, and they did so with a consensusly worse coaching staff.

I'm not convinced that ZT is better than Marvin. ZT needs to put up winning records to be better and that can't be seen until at least the first year is done.

On paper, coaching aside, this team should match up well on Sunday.

If Marvin had this same off-season, what would the expectations be?

 

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-05-2019, 10:10 AM)ochocincos Wrote: One could argue why wouldn't people give the benefit of the doubt for the unknown with Taylor? Well, look back to 2017 with Sean McVay taking over the 4-12 Rams. The Week 1 NFL.com Power Rankings in 2017 had the Rams projected as 29th in the league. It's natural to be skeptical of success without evidence to support success.

(09-05-2019, 11:15 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Eh, the Rams sucked a couple years ago...

Things can change quickly in the NFL.

Right on

Look no further than the 2011 Bengals. Everybody had us at 4 wins or less, some zero wins !

Nearly every season there's a hot pick that flops and a bottom pick that gets up in the mix. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-04-2019, 07:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not quite as dire of a situation as you might paint it to be.  Hubbard, Bates, and Jackson all look to be stars in the making, and Germaine Pratt looks to be one hell of a good LB prospect.  And, that's just on the defense..

Yes, those are some hella talented young players right there.

(09-04-2019, 07:32 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I actually like the Defense this year I have a quiet confidence about them. But still you lose Atkins where in a world of hurt. 

Sure, but what about Billings and Glasgow Jake? I think these are good players and Dunlap and Andrew Brown can 
get pressure from the inside if we need them to. What if Mount Wren comes along? You never know and there are 
always options if a certain player goes down. Coaching in the end is what puts on top or in a world of hurt.

(09-04-2019, 07:35 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I am still one that hangs on to the thought that we have a pretty great team which has been poorly coached. I think we are going to be great. It may take a few weeks to get there, or we may be there now. Although, 9.5 underdogs going into Seattle is exactly what I want right now. No respect usually works great in our favor and motivates these guys to bring their all.

Feel the same. Think it might take a bit for the coaches and players to gel but think this will be a much better team
than last year as long as we are not decimated by injuries. Kind of glad we get a tough game in Seattle to start out 
the season, great test for a young HC and our young team.

(09-04-2019, 10:24 PM)804 fan Wrote: I beg to differ, if you remember the game last year the Bengals had the game won but Marvin made a bad call for the 2 point conversion then Lazor dialed up a pityful run call out of a predictable formation. We had key injuries and still took the lead late in the game. If the players the Bengals had were on other rosters they would be perineal pro bowlers as we see when they leave to go to other teams i.e Justin Smith, J Joe, Big Whit, Spikes and others. Dont let the media ignorance cloud your mind but saying that in respect not malice. Who Dey

Coaching was a big problem last season and we still won 6 games while being decimated by injuries. Expecting at 
least 8 wins this season under a new regime with a better O-line and much better Linebackers and Coaches.

[*Nately120*]

(09-05-2019, 09:15 AM)jason Wrote: Y'all remember when the Browns went 1-15? The Chargers were that 1... They ain't going to no Super Bowl.

Do you remember the Patriots during their 3-year span of making the SB losing to the Jay Cutler-led Dolphins?  Does anyone?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-05-2019, 09:53 AM)Housh Wrote: Can’t believe anyone thinks we’ll be good with our offensive line.

They were a good Offensive Line in Preseason at pass blocking. Hell, Hopkins was the best Center in the league in 
this aspect. Turner I think has done a good job with this Line and we are better in the run game with Andre playing
LT and Mixon at RB. Also in the Preseason it was so vanilla teams knew we were going to run when we did.

We have no idea how good this O-line is until we open up the playbook.

[*Nately120*]

(09-05-2019, 01:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They were a good Offensive Line in Preseason at pass blocking. Hell, Hopkins was the best Center in the league in 
this aspect. Turner I think has done a good job with this Line and we are better in the run game with Andre playing
LT and Mixon at RB. Also in the Preseason it was so vanilla teams knew we were going to run when we did.

We have no idea how good this O-line is until we open up the playbook.

I'm hopeful, but our o-lines and defense were so bad last year and now they are being coached by guys who have some pretty bad looking resumes, to boot.  It would be like hoping Dave Shula could fix Jeff Driskel....ok well maybe not that bad.

[Daddy-O]

(09-04-2019, 07:23 PM)McC Wrote: And they still only beat the dreadful Bengals by five points.

At home (in San Diego) with Jeff Driskel as the Bengal QB.

[*Nately120*]

(09-05-2019, 01:42 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: At home (in San Diego) with Jeff Driskel as the Bengal QB.

Wow, maybe Marvin Lewis and Jeff Driskel aren't as bad as we thought if they, with all those injuries, went toe-to-toe with a team that won 12 games and a road playoff game.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-05-2019, 01:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm hopeful, but our o-lines and defense were so bad last year and now they are being coached by guys who have some pretty bad looking resumes, to boot.  It would be like hoping Dave Shula could fix Jeff Driskel....ok well maybe not that bad.

Turner has had a lot of good O-lines in the past and Tem has a great resume.

Don't know where this is coming from. Maybe you are talking about Lou who is a first time DC.

We will see.

[*jason*]

(09-05-2019, 01:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Do you remember the Patriots during their 3-year span of making the SB losing to the Jay Cutler-led Dolphins?  Does anyone?

The Dolphins give the Patriots more problems than a lot of people realize.