So...was Marvin holding Ross back?

[XenoMorph]

(09-12-2019, 01:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Fred I don't in any way think Ross was totally innocent. In fact in many ways he was probably his own worst enemy !

But in the same breath I strongly feel Marvin cut him zero breaks. Did nothing, and I mean NOTHING to help him out, work him into the gameplan etc.

ML in many ways had it out for Ross from the beginning.

marvin wasn't the offensive coordinator marvin was a defensive guy...

year 1 was all on ross ross said as much.   Year 2 ross just getting his feet wet.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-12-2019, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe it would help if you actually read what these articles say instead of just frothing to rip Marvin.


The first one is from may 2105 and it says

Let's take a look around the rest of the AFC using Pro Football Focus' cumulative stat breakdowns beginning in 2011.

For the Bengals Russell Bodine (1,082), Kevin Zeitler (1,077), Dalton (1,056) and Green (915) have been the exceptions as the only rookies to play 900 or more snaps in their first year.

Pittsburgh has not had a single rookie play at least 900 snap.

Like the Bengals, the Baltimore Ravens have had four

New England has not had a single rookie crack the 900-snap plateau, just like Pittsburgh.

Denver has had three.

Indianapolis has also had three.

So what does this say?

It shows that, with a few exceptions, winning teams are looking for players who can play a bit as rookies, but are seen as long-term contributors to keep that team in the playoffs.

And this is what I have always said.  Winning teams depend on rookies less than other teams.
 

Nobody frothing....and I did read them....did you read the other two? Probably not ...... because they weren't very favorable. Again, Jesse Bates was the first rookie to start on defense in NINE years. There are rookies starting on D across the league, and several last year.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 02:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: Nobody frothing....and I did read them....did you read the other two? Probably not ...... because they weren't very favorable.

Yes I read them.  One was based on one single season (2016) and the other talked about Zac starting rookies BECAUSE OF INJURIES.  You know what one of the first things every Marvin hater says when I point out the rookies who started under him?  "He just started them because injuries forced him to."

(09-12-2019, 02:51 PM)Wyche Wrote:  Again, Jesse Bates was the first rookie to start on defense in NINE years. There are rookies starting on D across the league, and several last year.

So why should we just look at defense?

Oh wait.  Never mind.  I know EXACTLY why you only want to look at the defense.

Jordan Shipley
Jermaine Gresham
A J Green
Andy Dalton
Kevin Zeitler
Gio Bernard
Tyler Eifert
Russell Bodine
Jeremy Hill
Tyler Boyd
Billy Price.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-12-2019, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I read them.  One was based on one single season (2016) and the other talked about Zac starting rookies BECAUSE OF INJURIES.  You know what one of the first things every Marvin hater says when I point out the rookies who started under him?  "He just started them because injuries forced him to."



So why should we just look at defense?

Oh wait.  Never mind.  I know EXACTLY why you only want to look at the defense.

Jordan Shipley
Jermaine Gresham
A J Green
Andy Dalton
Kevin Zeitler
Gio Bernard
Tyler Eifert
Russell Bodine
Jeremy Hill
Tyler Boyd
Billy Price.

Meh, the Carlos Dunlap quote summed it best....

AJ Green was going to start day 1 no matter what team he played on. They pretty much HAD to start Dalton....Bodine as well ....which leads to Billy Price. There wasn't any real competition for either.  Seems Hill started after an injury,  Zeitler was a no brainer too, as was Eifert. I'll concede Gresh and Shipley....Tyler Boyd too. Gio split with BJGE, but if memory serves, Benny was the starter.

You also didn't quote the parts where Marvin didn't trust rookies to not let everyone down, and other such parts of the articles, but that's expected.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Quote:When interviewed after the Bengals’ Week 17 victory over the Ravens, Lewis was asked about whether the team should have played their younger guys sooner. His reply was a disturbing acknowledgement of this fear, referring to how playing youngsters puts “everybody in jeopardy” based on what they know and don’t know regarding the team’s scheme. He also added that rooies “have to prove it”, but basically admitted he doesn’t give them a chance to do so, while also blaming the lack of preparation time teams have to teach rookies.

[McC]

(09-12-2019, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bottom line?  Really?

How is it possible that Adam Thielen went from a total of 20 receptions his first two years to 69 in his third without a new head coach?

And is Zac to blame for Mixon looking so bad?  Joe sure had better numbers when Marvin was coach.

The REAL bottom line is that we do not know why Ross has gotten better.  The people who don't like Marvin will blame him no matter what.

Are we talking about Thielen or Mixon?  Try to stay on topic.

The bottom line is we absolutely DO know why he has gotten better.  John Ross himself said it.  Ignore the obvious all you want. The truth doesn't care if you refuse to acknowledge it or not.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 03:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: Meh, the Carlos Dunlap quote summed it best....

AJ Green was going to start day 1 no matter what team he played on. They pretty much HAD to start Dalton....Bodine as well ....which leads to Billy Price. There wasn't any real competition for either.  Seems Hill started after an injury,  Zeitler was a no brainer too, as was Eifert. I'll concede Gresh and Shipley....Tyler Boyd too. Gio split with BJGE, but if memory serves, Benny was the starter.

You also didn't quote the parts where Marvin didn't trust rookies to not let everyone down, and other such parts of the articles, but that's expected.

And you ignore the fact that the same thing applies to EVERY NFL TEAM.


This happens all the time.  People her want to rip Marvin for doing what every other coach in the league does.  It is sad when you post an article that points out that Marvin has played MORE rookies than most of the winning teams in the AFC at that time yet you still want to criticize him for it.

[impactplaya]

I think ML started certain rookies because
A. The talent was,off the charts Green Eifert.

B. No other better option. Bates Burfict Gresham

C.Circumstance. Dalton

If a rookie was ready day Lewis put him in
But if he had to "coach him up"
Lewis had no patience for that
He's on his own.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 03:23 PM)Wyche Wrote:

Exacrtly.

That is why ALL NFL COACHES are hesitant to start rookies.

But this is just more circular logic from the haters.  Bash Marvin for handing players starting jobs they have not earned then bash Marvin for NOT handing players starting jobs they have not earned.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 04:18 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I think ML started certain  rookies because
A. The talent was,off the charts Green Eifert.

B. No other better option. Bates Burfict Gresham

C.Circumstance. Dalton

If a rookie was ready day Lewis put him in
But if he had to "coach him up"
Lewis had no patience for that
He's on his own.

Apparently that is the same way EVERY NFL COACH feels.

Funny how I am the ONLY one who has posted numbers showing how much other teams play rookies.

Hmmmm, I wonder why that is? 



**Waiting for someone to post anecdotal evidence about how "this one team this one time" played more rookies than Marvin and had success.**

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-12-2019, 10:33 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Aj spoke and said he could play 8 more years under this offense. We may look back at the AJ injury and see it was best thing that could have happened for development of Ross and Willis.

Isn't it about time something good came from all the crap we have had as fans?  

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-12-2019, 04:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you ignore the fact that the same thing applies to EVERY NFL TEAM.


This happens all the time.  People her want to rip Marvin for doing what every other coach in the league does.  It is sad when you post an article that points out that Marvin has played MORE rookies than most of the winning teams in the AFC at that time yet you still want to criticize him for it.

Other coaches win playoff games in this league

(unrelated, but I couldn't resist)

[thillan]

Yes, Marvin held him back.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-12-2019, 11:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So which one did he handle properly?  Ogbuehi or Ross?

lol. Neither. He played one way too long during all his screw ups and didn't play the other as much during all his screw ups.

It's the perfect example of Marvs problems/hypocrisy here. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-12-2019, 11:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving my point.  No matter what Marvin did you would squeal that it was wrong.

If it was wrong, it was wrong. And in both cases, he was. It has nothing to do with squealing. This is such a weak argument, i can't believe someone would even attempt it. 

[Housh]

You have to throw to someone for them to have a chance to help you. Ross barely played with Marvin even tho a lot of that was health issue so

[impactplaya]

You can't get better watching from the sidelines
Lewis buried Ross his rookie year and it
Affected JRs confidence .
But Ross is a new man now.new confidence.
New player

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2019, 12:39 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: lol. Neither. He played one way too long during all his screw ups and didn't play the other as much during all his screw ups.

It's the perfect example of Marvs problems/hypocrisy here.

Bingo

You don't play a guy at starting LT 11 games into a season when it's painfully obvious to the entire world 2 games into the season he's not an NFL LT.

And you don't bench a rookie after his first NFL play for a fumble that 95% of the time due to the nature of the hit/fumble is a fumble for anybody.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-13-2019, 10:31 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Bingo

You don't play a guy at starting LT 11 games into a season when it's painfully obvious to the entire world 2 games into the season he's not an NFL LT.

And you don't bench a rookie after his first NFL play for a fumble that 95% of the time due to the nature of the hit/fumble is a fumble for anybody.

It wouldn't be as big a problem if he was just consistent. Either put a guy in and allow them to work through problems, or don't trust them and make them earn it. 

Sure, people would have still complained but at least he would be consistent and he could stand on that consistency. 

[fredtoast]

(09-13-2019, 10:41 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It wouldn't be as big a problem if he was just consistent. Either put a guy in and allow them to work through problems, or don't trust them and make them earn it. 

Sure, people would have still complained but at least he would be consistent and he could stand on that consistency. 

So which one should he have done?  

Should he have benched Ogbuehi all year (who would have replaced him?) or should he have played Ross all year even though he was not ready to play.

If you demand consistency from Marvin then you have to show consistency yourself.