Votto ranking among first basemen

[fredtoast]

According to ESPN there are 35 players identified as "first basemen" who have at least 325 plate appearances.


OB %...…………...13th
Bat avg...….......15th
OPS (slg+OB%).23rd
Slug %...……..….27th
HR...…………...….27th
RBI...………...…..30th
HR/AB...………...32nd 

Votto has 480 AB. There are 9 players with fewer than 400 ABs who have more RBI than him. Jesus Aguilar has 186 fewer AB than Votto but only one fewer RBI.

I have been one of Joey's biggest supporters around here.  In past years people ripped on him when he did not really deserve it.  But this year he is supposedly healthy and he is average to bottom of the league in every offensive category.

We just can't keep paying him $25 million a year for this type of production.

If only they could provide some valid reason for him to be so poor at the plate this year.   Something that could be fixed over the offseason.  But so far I have not heard anything.

[*bengalfan74*]

I just don't know how this team can take the next step in 2020 with JV being the regular 1Bman ? You just can't have one of the four power positions have so little output !

And then when you add in the at best average, more likely below average production from LF and it's one of if not the the main reasons this team failed this season.

Votto may improve next season ? But I'd venture a guess that at best it's only slightly.

I don't know how they'll ever get out of it ?

[guyofthetiger]

I would not be opposed to a similar deal like Homer to dump Votto's salary. There are teams that might take him off the Reds hands. For the right price and it definitely isn't $25 million. His good years are past him now and he is just dragging down the rest of the team.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 12:58 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Votto may improve next season ? But I'd venture a guess that at best it's only slightly. 

This is the million dollar question.  Why is he struggling so badly this season.  He is only 35. It doesn't seem that the numbers for a player like him would fall of a cliff so quickly if he is really healthy.  He led the NL in OB% last year, but it has dropped over 60 points this year. So if he does improve next year it could be by a large margin.  But there is absolutely no evidence that will happen.

If only Joey or the team could offer some reason for his drastic decline.  

[Circleville Guy]

Votto ‘s remaining contract has 4 more years at 25 Mil. a year and a 7 Mil. year buyout for the 5th year. He is still owed 107 Million dollars. His actual value is probably about 4 or 5 Mil. a year. The Reds are stuck. My plan would be to start Votto next season and sit him against LH starters. If he has a bad first have then he’s pretty much a platoon player in the second half. The Reds probably keep him as a platoon player the following year and then as a bench player for his last 2 years. They will be forced to eating 3/4 of his remaining contract regardless if they trade him. I hated the extension when it happened because Votto still had some years left on his contract and had just won the mvp. That was a very stupid time to extend him. It handcuffs the Reds for 5 years, almost half of the contract years are eaten. Small market teams cannot sign contracts like this and especially while he was already controlled for a few more years. Votto could actually have a decent year or 2 left in him though. The reason I say this is that he looks great physically and he has a reputation of overthinking things. This year could be as much mental as physical. Don’t forget that goofy choking up halfway up the bat for half of the season and that goofy golf warmup swing. He’s accomplished enough and doesn’t have much to lose so hopefully someone can get him to relax next season and rely more on his national talent than his trying to outthink the pitcher on every pitch. He also has to be more aggressive or at least more defensive with 2 strikes. He has to ditch being passive with 2 strikes. More than anything, he needs to bring back his old walk up song, “Paint It Black” by the Stones. Maybe that set his mind right!

[*psychdoctor*]

I think Turner Ward tinkered with Votto's swing and it did not bode well for him this season. Trying to get Votto to "launch" the ball with his quirky pre-swing rituals was a cue to me, that something was off.

I think Votto will show improvements next season.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-12-2019, 02:11 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Votto ‘s remaining contract  has 4 more years at 25 Mil. a year and a 7 Mil. year buyout for the 5th year. He is still owed 107 Million dollars. His actual value is probably about 4 or 5 Mil. a year. The Reds are stuck. My plan would be to start Votto next season and sit him against LH starters. If he has a bad first have then he’s pretty much a platoon player in the second half. The Reds probably keep him as a platoon player the following year and then as a bench player for his last 2 years. They will be forced to eating 3/4 of his remaining contract regardless if they trade him. I hated the extension when it happened because Votto still had some years left on his contract and had just won the mvp. That was a very stupid time to extend him. It handcuffs the Reds for 5 years, almost half of the contract years are eaten. Small market teams cannot sign contracts like this and especially while he was already controlled for a few more years. Votto could actually have a decent year or 2 left in him though. The reason I say this is that he looks great physically and he has a reputation of overthinking things. This year could be as much mental as physical. Don’t forget that goofy choking up halfway up the bat for half of the season and that goofy golf warmup swing. He’s accomplished enough and doesn’t have much to lose so hopefully someone can get him to relax next season and rely more on his national talent than his trying to outthink the pitcher on every pitch. He also has to be more aggressive or at least more defensive with 2 strikes. He has to ditch being passive with 2 strikes. More than anything, he needs to bring back his old walk up song, “Paint It Black” by the Stones. Maybe that set his mind right!

I've never understood what that choked up giant uppercut 3/4 swing he does after stepping out of the box is supposed to do ? It's nothing even slightly resembling a real/natural swing.

[Circleville Guy]

(09-12-2019, 04:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've never understood what that choked up giant uppercut 3/4 swing he does after stepping out of the box is supposed to do ? It's nothing even slightly resembling a real/natural swing.

Lol. It’s one of the weirdest things I’ve ever seen in a baseball game. I never noticed him doing that until this year.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(09-12-2019, 10:18 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Lol. It’s one of the weirdest things I’ve ever seen in a baseball game. I never noticed him doing that until this year.

He started it last year in Spring Training. He said that he was adjusting to pitchers pitching him inside and then apparently he lost his ability to drive the ball to left center. He always had an opposite field launch swing and after his almost MVP season, he Votto'd out and overthought everything instead of just replicating what he was doing.

In my 50 plus years of watching baseball, I've never seen anyone cocking their arm like Joe Morgan just before the pirch was delivered and I've never seen anybody practice swing at a constant check swing. Cocking his arm didn't change the way Morgan hit, practicing the check swing has completely changed a recent MVP candidate.

[*psychdoctor*]

Votto had a good night against Mariners last night. The Punisher has cooled down quite a bit.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2019, 07:15 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Votto had a good night against Mariners last night.  The Punisher has cooled down quite a bit.

Typically that's the way it goes with young hitters. It's a series of adjustments and countering by hitter and pitchers. Aquino now has to readjust.

He'll get it  :andy:

I hope

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2019, 04:07 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: He started it last year in Spring Training. He said that he was adjusting to pitchers pitching him inside and then apparently he lost his ability to drive the ball to left center. He always had an opposite field launch swing and after his almost MVP season, he Votto'd out and overthought everything instead of just replicating what he was doing.

In my 50 plus years of watching baseball, I've never seen anyone cocking their arm like Joe Morgan just before the pirch was delivered and I've never seen anybody practice swing at a constant check swing. Cocking his arm didn't change the way Morgan hit, practicing the check swing has completely changed a recent MVP candidate.

I'm no manager, hitting coach, baseball analyst, or psychiatrist but I believe the only chance JV has is for somebody to get into his head and convince him he has stop all the overanalyzing every tiny bit of minutia that goes into hitting.

Go up there Joey, see the ball...hit the ball.....that's it.

I doubt at this point in his career that's possible but we can hope.

[fredtoast]

(09-13-2019, 04:07 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: He started it last year in Spring Training. He said that he was adjusting to pitchers pitching him inside and then apparently he lost his ability to drive the ball to left center. 

That became a bigger issue as shifts became more popular.  Votto started seeing a lot of them, and when a team puts on a shift all the batter gets is inside pitches that make it harder to go opposite field.

[Circleville Guy]

(09-13-2019, 04:07 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: He started it last year in Spring Training. He said that he was adjusting to pitchers pitching him inside and then apparently he lost his ability to drive the ball to left center. He always had an opposite field launch swing and after his almost MVP season, he Votto'd out and overthought everything instead of just replicating what he was doing.

In my 50 plus years of watching baseball, I've never seen anyone cocking their arm like Joe Morgan just before the pirch was delivered and I've never seen anybody practice swing at a constant check swing. Cocking his arm didn't change the way Morgan hit, practicing the check swing has completely changed a recent MVP candidate.

That was another funny one. Morgan did look funny with that. I remember that but I don’t remember the reason Morgan did that.

[Circleville Guy]

(09-13-2019, 07:15 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Votto had a good night against Mariners last night. The Punisher has cooled down quite a bit.

He had 3 hits. He has a shot to hit over .270 before the year ends.Hopefully he can finish strong and have a rebound year next year.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2019, 12:31 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: That was another funny one. Morgan did look funny with that. I remember that but I don’t remember the reason Morgan did that.

I can remember, as a kid, I was like 10-12 thru the 75 and 76 seasons. My nickname for Morgan was the chicken man   the way he pumped that back elbow up and down in the batters box.

[Circleville Guy]

(09-13-2019, 01:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I can remember, as a kid, I was like 10-12 thru the 75 and 76 seasons. My nickname for Morgan was the chicken man   the way he pumped that back elbow up and down in the batters box.

It’s a wonder players didn’t copy him after he won the MVP both years. A Red won the league MVP in 70, 72, 73, 75, 76 and 77. Talk about a good decade!

[*psychdoctor*]

let us hope this carries over into 2020. Reds need Votto to perform.

But... but... I was told he’s washed up and not good anymore. https://t.co/QE4Bclj9xI

— Reds Baseball Take (@CincyRedsTake) September 14, 2019

[Circleville Guy]

(09-14-2019, 02:43 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: let us hope this carries over into 2020. Reds need Votto to perform.

But... but... I was told he’s washed up and not good anymore. https://t.co/QE4Bclj9xI

— Reds Baseball Take (@CincyRedsTake) September 14, 2019

You can breakup numbers to look however you want. After 81 games, Votto had 7 Hr’s and was hitting.268. He now has 15 Hr’s and a .268 average for the year. I do have a feeling that he will have a better year next year.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-14-2019, 06:24 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: You can breakup numbers to look however you want. After 81 games, Votto had 7 Hr’s and was hitting.268. He now has 15 Hr’s and a .268 average for the year. I do have a feeling that he will have a better year next year.

Right

The sad fact is the guy STILL in 2nd place on the team in RBI's hasn't been with the team for over 2 months. Votto has 46 RBI's  ! 

Senzel with over 100 less AB's has 42, Aquino with over 300 less AB's has 39, Winker with 150 less AB's and can't get the ball back to the pitchers mound vs. LHP's has 38, Barnhart with over 200 less AB's has 36.

It's just pitiful