Dalton is broken

[*PhilHos*]

I said it in the GameDay thread, but I think Dalton is broken. He was a good QB. But, I think the last few years with a bad OL, inconsistent receivers and a couple coordinators who probably had no business being OCs have totally turned Dalton into full time Playoff Dalton.

I had hoped Taylor could fix Dalton - at least get him back to inconsistent Dalton - but with the offensive line playing this poorly, there's no chance that's happening this season.

At this point, I think Dalton should be relegated to a mentor role to a young/rookie QB as I doubt any team will trade anything of value for him - though if you can find someone, pull the trigger. If that means starting Finley, Dolegala or next year's first round draft pick, so be it. Like Marvin Lewis, I think it's time to move on from Dalton.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-01-2019, 11:45 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I said it in the GameDay thread, but I think Dalton is broken. He was a good QB. But, I think the last few years with a bad OL, inconsistent receivers and a couple coordinators who probably had no business being OCs have totally turned Dalton into full time Playoff Dalton.

I had hoped Taylor could fix Dalton - at least get him back to inconsistent Dalton - but with the offensive line playing this poorly, there's no chance that's happening this season.

At this point, I think Dalton should be relegated to a mentor role to a young/rookie QB as I doubt any team will trade anything of value for him - though if you can find someone, pull the trigger. If that means starting Finley, Dolegala or next year's first round draft pick, so be it. Like Marvin Lewis, I think it's time to move on from Dalton.

:andy: :andy: :andy:

Couldn't agree more, it's time to turn the page

[adamP]

Dalton puts the Oline in an impossible situation to protect because he literally has 0 pocket presence,freaking drops back 2 steps and stands in the same spot every play. Its kind of funny how much better the Oline looked when Ryan finley was playing in preseason....magically got better in seconds ..... wake up Bengals fans ,Dalton has become TERRIBLE....

[Nati#1]

I would trade Andy at this point. We can get some draft picks or maybe a high pick from a team in need of a qb. I'll take my chances with Finley so we know what we have coming into next years draft so we can decide whether or not we need a qb.

[*bfine32*]

On one of the sacks last night Andy looked like he was literally frozen. I have never seen anything like it. I'm not sure if a permanent benching is the answer put when he struggles like he has in the last 2 games they need to pull him and let him watch . He's a smart guy maybe he can pick up something. Hell he might be better at identifying things that our current staff.

[GreenCornBengal]

I agree for the most part.

I am shocked at how week 1 we ran a lot of quick passes. Slants, quick outs, curls.

Last night we seemed to want to run some long developing plays. I'm not sure why we decided to get away from what worked week 1. I don't think anyone actually proved they could stop it.

[treee]

At this point, might as well get Finley, Sample, and Pratt some valuable play time against 1st string defenses.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2019, 01:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: On one of the sacks last night Andy looked like he was literally frozen. I have never seen anything like it. I'm not sure if a permanent benching is the answer put when he struggles like he has in the last 2 games they need to pull him and let him watch . He's a smart guy maybe he can pick up something. Hell he might be better at identifying things that our current staff.

I don't know if Dalton can be "fixed" in Cincy. It may happen, but I'm not optimistic about it. A change of scenery combined with a high quality coaching staff might.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Yep, he's hearing the footsteps. He threw his helmet in disgust last night, and threw a ball after one of the many sacks. I've never seen that out of him. Officially Bungalized.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-01-2019, 02:09 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, he's hearing the footsteps. He threw his helmet in disgust last night, and threw a ball after one of the many sacks. I've never seen that out of him. Officially Bungalized.

I saw him get mad once in the GB game in '13. That's about all i can remember though. 

[Older Than You Too]

How would we even know if Dalton is broke, with the line getting worse every year? Give him a competent line and then see what he does. Statistically Dalton's worst year was still his rookie year.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-01-2019, 09:21 PM)Older Than You Too Wrote: How would we even know if Dalton is broke, with the line getting worse every year? Give him a competent line and then see what he does. Statistically Dalton's worst year was still his rookie year.

Good idea. Let's spend the next couple/several years building an offensive line that can protect better, because it sure as hell is easier said than done. Then in his 12th year, we can see how Dalton does behind a decent line. 

Not trying to be a smart ass but we have plenty of examples of how he plays with a good line. From 2011 through 2016 the Bengals pass blocking efficiency was ranked, 3rd, 3rd, tied for 2nd, 2nd, 5th and 15th. His best season wasn't even the line's best rating. He's had plenty of really good pass blocking lines and he's been below average to average with 1 season of elite level play during that 6 year stretch. 

In 8+ seasons he's had a quarterback rating above 90, two times. T.W.O.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-01-2019, 10:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Good idea. Let's spend the next couple/several years building an offensive line that can protect better, because it sure as hell is easier said than done. Then in his 12th year, we can see how Dalton does behind a decent line. 

Not trying to be a smart ass but we have plenty of examples of how he plays with a good line. From 2011 through 2016 the Bengals pass blocking efficiency was ranked, 3rd, 3rd, tied for 2nd, 2nd, 5th and 15th. His best season wasn't even the line's best rating. He's had plenty of really good pass blocking lines and he's been below average to average with 1 season of elite level play during that 6 year stretch. 

In 8+ seasons he's had a quarterback rating above 90, two times. T.W.O.

He’s just not good enough to overcome this team’s deficiencies. Maybe if he had been drafted by a better franchise, but alas...

We need to hit the jackpot on a stud QB. One with size, who’s mobile, can extend plays, and makeup for a subpar OL. We will have a good chance to get one with a strong QB class and a high pick this year. Now is the time. The whole “let’s not turn into Cleveland” is bs. It doesn’t matter how long it takes, you keep trying until you find your guy.

If we had taken a QB with each of our 1st round picks instead of Ced Og, Ross, Price, Dennard, etc and they didn’t work out we’d be in the exact same position we’re in now.

[Older Than You Too]

(10-01-2019, 10:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Good idea. Let's spend the next couple/several years building an offensive line that can protect better, because it sure as hell is easier said than done. Then in his 12th year, we can see how Dalton does behind a decent line. 

Not trying to be a smart ass but we have plenty of examples of how he plays with a good line. From 2011 through 2016 the Bengals pass blocking efficiency was ranked, 3rd, 3rd, tied for 2nd, 2nd, 5th and 15th. His best season wasn't even the line's best rating. He's had plenty of really good pass blocking lines and he's been below average to average with 1 season of elite level play during that 6 year stretch. 

In 8+ seasons he's had a quarterback rating above 90, two times. T.W.O.

1. It doesn't have to take several years to get a better line. Key words being "doesn't have to." But, that wasn't really the point.

2. I was pointing out that you can't tell if Andy is "broken" when the line has been trash for four years. You could only tell if he's broken if the line got better and Andy played bad. Really, this should be the first point since all my first post said was that you can't tell if Andy's broken with a line this bad. Your reply was almost a strawman, considering what my actual point was.

3.Your second paragraph proves my point. Historically, if you give him a good line we make the playoffs, don't and we miss them.

4. Even with the trash line from these four years, in the last three Andy still played rather decent all things considering. Especially last year before the injury.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-01-2019, 11:28 PM)Older Than You Too Wrote: 2. I was pointing out that you can't tell if Andy is "broken" when the line has been trash for four years. You could only tell if he's broken if the line got better and Andy played bad. Really, this should be the first point since all my first post said was that you can't tell if Andy's broken with a line this bad. Your reply was almost a strawman, considering what my actual point was.

3.Your second paragraph proves my point. Historically, if you give him a good line we make the playoffs, don't and we miss them.

Once again, we already know how he plays behind a good line. We have 6 years of proof. Below average to average. One elite level season. 
There's no need to get a better Oline to see if he plays better. We know how he plays with a good line, an average line and a bad line. 

And the line has only been bad the previous 2 seasons.

[Older Than You Too]

Once again, you don't seem to get it. You can't tell if Andy's broken with a line that has progressively gotten worse each year. You can only tell if he's broken if the line was good, but Andy played bad. Which he hasn't, outside of the playoffs.

There is always a reason to get a better o line, regardless of who the QB is. And the only way you could tell if he's broken is if you did have a better line (my entire point). Andy got better every season his first 5 years. Then the line went to shit and we've had this regression. The line stunted Andy's growth, not Andy.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-02-2019, 12:13 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Once again, we already know how he plays behind a good line. We have 6 years of proof. Below average to average. One elite level season. 
There's no need to get a better Oline to see if he plays better. We know how he plays with a good line, an average line and a bad line. 

And the line has only been bad the previous 2 seasons.

Not even a season. Part of a season. And some are still clinging to it 4 years later.

There was a few years between 2013-15 where people talked about us having one of the very best rosters in the league. The entire league. And what were the results? A bunch of embarrassing primetime and playoff performances by our QB (and others) and a mediocre backup getting us closer to a playoff win than our starter ever did...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-02-2019, 12:18 AM)Older Than You Too Wrote: Once again, you don't seem to get it. You can't tell if Andy's broken with a line that has progressively gotten worse each year. You can only tell if he's broken if the line was good, but Andy played bad. Which he hasn't, outside of the playoffs.

There is always a reason to get a better o line, regardless of who the QB is. And the only way you could tell if he's broken is if you did have a better line (my entire point). Andy got better every season his first 5 years. Then the line went to shit and we've had this regression. The line stunted Andy's growth, not Andy.

No YOU don’t seem to get it. As rfaulk pointed out, Andy had a decent OL for 5 years. And he got us absolutely nowhere with it.

But back then the excuses were Marvin, the OC, lack of weapons, blah blah blah...

[Older Than You Too]

(10-02-2019, 12:41 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No YOU don’t seem to get it. As rfaulk pointed out, Andy had a decent OL for 5 years. And he got us absolutely nowhere with it.

But back then the excuses were Marvin, the OC, lack of weapons, blah blah blah...

Nope. You don't get it either. Sigh.

The point of this thread is if the bad line for the last four years broke Andy. I posted that the only way to tell is if the line got better and Andy played bad. Then you could tell if Andy is "broken" from four years of bad line play.

All Faulk has done is post shit that has nothing to do with what I said. Nothing you posted had anything to do with what I said either. I never said anything about his first five years in my first post, since that has nothing to do with a bad o line breaking him. Go look up what a straw man is if you still don't get it.

[NATI BENGALS]

Or..

He is not broken. And he just is who he is.

He doesn't have AJ Green. Who has carried him for years.

This is the guy who has only passed for more than 3,700 yards twice and topped 27 TDs once in his EIGHT YEAR career.

And we act like trying something different is super bad. I don't get it.