Great Article on The Ringer about Dalton and the Bengals

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-03-2019, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is almost impossible to find a QB who can win with no talent around him.  Aaron Rodgers had a losing record over the last two seasons.  


Trying to build a team by finding a QB who does not need talent to win is like investing for retirement by buying lottery tickets.  

Agree but I think the key is to find a QB who can win with "some" talent around him.

Dalton needs a good deal of talent around him to just be average or slightly above.

[bengals67]

there are some great points in this thread.

Dalton could leave and go to a good team and lead them to a Super Bowl. He was agood QB when we had an above average o line and an above average defense that actually got some turnovers.

Would Bengals have ruined Mahomes- great possibility

Many other good comments

Lots of smart folks post on this board. Thank you.

[Browns Town Bengal]

(10-03-2019, 01:15 PM)shanebo Wrote: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/10/3/20896664/andy-dalton-cincinnati-bengals-quarterback-litmus-test

Nothing really new to us, but I think the author hits the nail on the head.  One line summary:  Dalton is a perfectly average NFL QB, but he can't carry a team without an offensive line, receivers, or a run game.

I firmly believe that if Dalton didnt have AJ Green to throw to his whole career, he wouldve been relegated to a backup somewhere by now.  AJ has bailed him out for too long.

[*jason*]

(10-03-2019, 02:08 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Yup, Dalton is probably at the low end of the tier that Flacco and Eli are in.

Could Dalton get a good team and coach to a superbowl win? Probably.

Could Dalton put a team on his back a la Rodgers or Brees and win it all? Doubtful.

The Dalton era is more than likely coming to an end. Next year we'll see if Finley is the guy that Taylor wants or if we take a QB in the top 5.

Wait... When did Rogers or Brees carry a shitty team on their shoulders? The Saints went from being a playoff team to an also ran when their HC got suspended. They weren't very good for awhile after that. Rogers' record has been kinda shaky the last few seasons too.

I don't wanna hear Dalton this Dalton that... For everyone involved it's probably best if he moves on, but I just don't see this mythical QB that carries a shit roster to glory.

[*jason*]

(10-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Browns Town Bengal Wrote: I firmly believe that if Dalton didnt have AJ Green to throw to his whole career, he wouldve been relegated to a backup somewhere by now.  AJ has bailed him out for too long.

AJ has been in street clothes for too long.

[Bengalitis]

Just like Marvin, thank you for the turn around of the 90s and the few playoff games but off you go like Marvin. Thank you and good-bye!

[reuben.ahmed]

(10-03-2019, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is almost impossible to find a QB who can win with no talent around him.  Aaron Rodgers had a losing record over the last two seasons.  


Trying to build a team by finding a QB who does not need talent to win is like investing for retirement by buying lottery tickets.  

Yes but can't we see that Andy needs everything else to go perfectly? That includes coaching and play calls. It's asking too much of a mediocre man. It would be nice to see what would happen if he consistently had 3-4 seconds to throw. There are "many other" QBs that can play just as well when everything else is going perfectly, but better than Andy when things aren't. We need more out of our QB, but it's hard to tell with the atrocious offnesive line. Disrespectful that they earn a paycheck. Like that college coach did, send the full offensive line to answer questoins from reporters. Embarrass those grown men.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Browns Town Bengal Wrote: I firmly believe that if Dalton didnt have AJ Green to throw to his whole career, he wouldve been relegated to a backup somewhere by now.  AJ has bailed him out for too long.

Remember a while back when some guy on here was talking about how AJ has been holding Dalton back all these years?? Lmao

[John Shaft]

(10-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Browns Town Bengal Wrote: I firmly believe that if Dalton didnt have AJ Green to throw to his whole career, he wouldve been relegated to a backup somewhere by now.  AJ has bailed him out for too long.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
. AJ made lots of highlight plays where it was more AJ making an acrobatic catch rather than Dalton tossing a dime. I'll leave Daltons tendency to throw/lead Running Backs and Recievers into BIG HITS from safeties and linebackers for another thread.

[fredtoast]

(10-03-2019, 05:57 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree but I think the key is to find a QB who can win with "some" talent around him.

Dalton needs a good deal of talent around him to just be average or slightly above.

(10-03-2019, 10:08 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Yes but can't we see that Andy needs everything else to go perfectly? That includes coaching and play calls. It's asking too much of a mediocre man. It would be nice to see what would happen if he consistently had 3-4 seconds to throw. There are "many other" QBs that can play just as well when everything else is going perfectly, but better than Andy when things aren't.

You guys are grossly overestimating the talent Dalton has had around him, and grossly overestimating the ability of other QBs to play with not a lot of talent arund them.

Drew Brees had three straight losing seasons from '14 through '16.

Aaron Rodgers was 10-12-1 as a starter over the last two seasons.

Dalton had a Pro Bowl season when the rushing game ranked 21st, Brandon LaFell was his #2 WR, Eifert only played 8 games, and Bodine and Ogbuehi were starting on his O-line.  That is far from "everything going perfectly".


I'd like to see the list of "many" other QBs who perform better than Dalton with less talent.  

[fredtoast]

(10-03-2019, 10:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Remember a while back when some guy on here was talking about how AJ has been holding Dalton back all these years?? Lmao

No.  I never remember seeing anything like that at all.

Who said it?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-04-2019, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I never remember seeing anything like that at all.

Who said it?

Ycascadia or some such. In one of the Dalton threads.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

For anyone who was watching, we knew what Dalton was 5 years ago. The dreamers kept thinking he was going to excel but it was clear he was limited and his game regressed the brighter the lights.

[Ravage]

(10-03-2019, 02:20 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Actually Palmer had a pretty decent Oline his first few years (his best years... coincidence? I think not). He had no slouches with Braham, Willie, and Bobbie. But once injuries and retirement forced them to make changes, the front office dropped the ball (besides whitworth, of course).

Don't forget Levi, he was still good those first few seasons with Palmer.

[reuben.ahmed]

(10-04-2019, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You guys are grossly overestimating the talent Dalton has had around him, and grossly overestimating the ability of other QBs to play with not a lot of talent arund them.

Drew Brees had three straight losing seasons from '14 through '16.

Aaron Rodgers was 10-12-1 as a starter over the last two seasons.

Dalton had a Pro Bowl season when the rushing game ranked 21st, Brandon LaFell was his #2 WR, Eifert only played 8 games, and Bodine and Ogbuehi were starting on his O-line.  That is far from "everything going perfectly".


I'd like to see the list of "many" other QBs who perform better than Dalton with less talent.  

Proving "many" other QBs perform better than Dalton with less talent is subjective, proving "many" other QBs perform better than Dalton with nothing else going perfectly (run game, offensive line, defense, kicking, etc) is going to be a lot easier and more objective, but it's just my gut feeling and I don't want to research it right now, lol.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-04-2019, 01:36 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Proving "many" other QBs perform better than Dalton with less talent is subjective, proving "many" other QBs perform better than Dalton with nothing else going perfectly (run game, offensive line, defense, kicking, etc) is going to be a lot easier and more objective, but it's just my gut feeling and I don't want to research it right now, lol.

It's impossible to prove either way because then the QB performs, the stats of the receivers go up, and the talent level is perceived as higher.

I do know that a guy like Brees spreads the ball around a lot. Sure he has Michael Thomas, but they'll have 7-8 guys catch passes some games. I don't think Brees has a stronger arm than Dalton. But, Brees has crazy good accuracy.

[fredtoast]

(10-04-2019, 01:36 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote:  it's just my gut feeling and I don't want to research it right now, lol.

Why would you have to research something you already know and state as a fact?


lol

[TheUberHuber]

(10-04-2019, 12:56 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: For anyone who was watching, we knew what Dalton was 5 years ago. The dreamers kept thinking he was going to excel but it was clear he was limited and his game regressed the brighter the lights.

That's funny you say he regressed after 5 years ago. 4 years ago was his best season...

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-04-2019, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I never remember seeing anything like that at all.

Who said it?

(10-04-2019, 12:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ycascadia or some such. In one of the Dalton threads.

Right here. 

(08-22-2018, 09:54 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Yep.  

Don't get me wrong.  Aside from maybe 3, 4 or 5 teams (NE, GB, NO, and possibly Carolina and Seattle) almost every fan base wonders if they could possibly upgrade their QB spot with player x or y.  So wondering what our team could be like without Dalton at QB and having Matt Ryan is not wrong and it isn't impossible to think we might be better with a different QB.

However, to think that Dalton is holding AJ back is laughable.  For all we know, AJ could be holding Dalton back.  Just look at the Bills game last year.  Green had many mistakes that almost cost us the game.  One of Dalton's best season's was the one that Green missed time and had to spread the ball around to other WRs.

A lot of Dalton's success though is due to the ability of the OLine to block (can be said for all the QBs), also the game plan to mask any glaring weaknesses.  When given time, Dalton is just as good as Andrew Luck.  He was the QB of the last 2 seasons that had a terrible OLine and still had us in many games.  

6-9-1?  Not for a few missed FGs and we have a 10-6 record beating out Pittsburgh for the Division, hell we would have beaten Pitt even with the tie.

7-9?  I have already said how I think the Texans were handed the win to that game based off of some bad calls / non calls, however if not for Watson's TD (refer to the Hopkins *catch* and holding) we win that game.  GB, Mixon slipped and loses yardage, he stays upright and we stay perfect against Rodgers.  A complete whiff by WJIII (which I believe was him trying to not draw a penalty since Bell looked to be headed OB) and we beat Pittsburgh.  That is another 10-6 season.  I do believe the Titans also won with a late TD which would have been an 11-5 season.  Not enough to beat the Steelers for the division, but enough to secure a playoff spot.

All of this is with a bad OLine.  If the OLine can improve then Dalton can have an MVP season and we can make a return to the post season.  Hopefully it can lead to a SB appearance and even win.  Though even if he were to win, Dalton will be treated like Eli and not be credited as much as he should.

[J24]

(10-03-2019, 05:57 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree but I think the key is to find a QB who can win with "some" talent around him.

Dalton needs a good deal of talent around him to just be average or slightly above.

Here is the thing that's complete bull shit.  There isn't a QB who has won Championship that didn't have great pieces around him. Every QB needs talent around him to reach the big dance 

Now with that being said.
Dalton isn't a average but he is good. However he isn't good enough to be paid like a franchise QB. The Bengals best bet is to trade Dalton and use the money they would be spending on him on a impact player in free agency.