Time to cut our losses

[THE PISTONS]

(11-17-2019, 11:05 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Mike Brown gave Shula a 2 year extension after going 8-24 and didn't fire him until he went 19-52.
He tried to talk Coslet out of quitting after an painfully embarrassing 5-25 stretch.
He was unhappy about letting LeBeau's contract expire after he went 2-14.
He gave Marvin 16 years and multiple extensions after playoff disasters.

I think it's safe to say that Zac will be the head coach next year. 

As far as him making friends in the organization, he's probably trying to follow the Marvin blueprint --- basically becoming part of 'the family' and ensuring his job security for the next 2 decades.

That puts things in perspective!

[THE PISTONS]

(11-18-2019, 12:25 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: There are times for staying the course. There are times for making a change. Honestly, it’s time for a change and I’m sorry to say it. Like many, I gulped down the Zac Taylor “New Dey” Kool-Aid and it tasted so sweet at first — but this Kool-Aid was filled with artificial sweetener, not the real thing.  It turns out all of us — Mike Brown included — were sold a bill of goods.  If Zac was a car he would be a lemon.  He might have nailed the interview but it seems he might have exaggerated a bit — or a lot.

I would cut bait because it’s not getting better.  I fear further regression.

The Q&A from Hobson that I posted in the 2nd and 3rd posts make it fairly clear that no matter what...they aren't firing Taylor.

They blame this season (and the last 2) on injuries...and growing pains of a new system.

He could go 0-16 and will be back.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-18-2019, 02:32 AM)SladeX Wrote: No decent HC with experience is going to come here.
At best you're getting some kind of reclamation project. Like a Petrino, but at the Pro level. Jim Turner if he was a HC. I don't have any actual names in mind.

It's funny actually. After blowing smoke up everyone's asses for years (including their HC), they've (The Family) got a guy blowing smoke at them. I

Might be able to get Del Rio as a HC. Someone like that is probably the best we can do.

Or else some unknown that has no experience like Zac.

[HuDey]

I can't get get my pitchfork out just yet. This team was rapidly circling the drain when Taylor walked through the door and to expect immediate improvement with the same roster was not realistic to begin with. When we hired Taylor, I said that it was going to get worse before it got better and the only question is how long is it going to stay worse. This team needs a massive roster overhaul to start with, and Taylor also will need to take a hard look at his coaching staff. I need to see what he does this offseason and how he adjusts after having a season to evaluate his roster and staff. What changes will he make to correct the things that did not work? How will he address the roster in terms of the draft, FA, and what decisions will be made concerning guys like Green and Dalton, who are at or nearing the end of their contracts?

I think we will learn a lot more about Zac Taylor after this season than we do during it.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-18-2019, 11:34 AM)HuDey Wrote: I can't get get my pitchfork out just yet. This team was rapidly circling the drain when Taylor walked through the door and to expect immediate improvement with the same roster was not realistic to begin with. When we hired Taylor, I said that it was going to get worse before it got better and the only question is how long is it going to stay worse. This team needs a massive roster overhaul to start with, and Taylor also will need to take a hard look at his coaching staff. I need to see what he does this offseason and how he adjusts after having a season to evaluate his roster and staff. What changes will he make to correct the things that did not work? How will he address the roster in terms of the draft, FA, and what decisions will be made concerning guys like Green and Dalton, who are at or nearing the end of their contracts?

I think we will learn a lot more about Zac Taylor after this season than we do during it.

We won 6 games last year. Immediate improvement is 7-8 wins.

We have ZERO wins.


And getting worse before it gets better...generally entails doing what the Dolphins did. We didn't do that. We largely have the same roster as last year...and 0 wins.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-18-2019, 11:09 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My, how soon people forget that Marvin Lewis coached the Bengals to a 10 game losing streak in 2010, just a year before they went on a 5 year playoff run that included a couple of division Championships.

Yep, and not to mention going 2-9 to close out 2018.

Fact is this team has been bad since the middle of 2015 !

Since the 8-0 start to 2015 the remainder of the games coached by ML lead Bengals went 23-33. 5 of those 23 victories were against the Browns !! who won like 5 games in 3 seasons.

17 wins remaining. 7 of those 17 victories were against teams with season records of 5-11 or worse. That's 12 wins, OVER HALF, against teams with 5-11 record or worse.

10 wins remaining. I didn't go thru every one of them but at least 3 are against teams who finished under .500

The Bengals have like 6 or 7 wins against teams with winning records (for that season) since the middle of 2015 thru end of 2018.

People need to stop acting like the Bengals after the start to 2015 were good, on the cusp, about to break out, a couple players away, or however you want to put it ? Under ML

ZT inherited a very bad team......period

Having said all of that even I am on the fence about him.

[HuDey]

(11-18-2019, 11:46 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We won 6 games last year. Immediate improvement is 7-8 wins.

We have ZERO wins.


And getting worse before it gets better...generally entails doing what the Dolphins did. We didn't do that. We largely have the same roster as last year...and 0 wins.

6 wins, zero wins, we suck either way. My point was, that 6 win team from last year was already in decline and the O-line actually got worse between Marvin's last game and Taylor's first. So we have a declining team that was already bad playing under the systems and coaches that they were accustomed to, now we get to see that same declining team in an adjustment period, playing under new coaches and systems and we don't expect it to get worse?

To me, it's not so much about the number of wins that this dumpster inferno gets this season, we already knew that they sucked and the arrow was pointing down....I'm more interested in seeing what Taylor is going to do about it.

[sandwedge]

(11-18-2019, 11:34 AM)HuDey Wrote: I can't get get my pitchfork out just yet. This team was rapidly circling the drain when Taylor walked through the door and to expect immediate improvement with the same roster was not realistic to begin with. When we hired Taylor, I said that it was going to get worse before it got better and the only question is how long is it going to stay worse. This team needs a massive roster overhaul to start with, and Taylor also will need to take a hard look at his coaching staff. I need to see what he does this offseason and how he adjusts after having a season to evaluate his roster and staff. What changes will he make to correct the things that did not work? How will he address the roster in terms of the draft, FA, and what decisions will be made concerning guys like Green and Dalton, who are at or nearing the end of their contracts?

I think we will learn a lot more about Zac Taylor after this season than we do during it.

I've refrained from posting here awhile, after getting to glimpse some of the game yesterday via RedZone, I expect a major overhaul this off season. I still think HC Taylor will take a big leap next year, but not with the players or assistants he has now. What I saw yesterday was players taking plays off, a defense that is very bad. Time for a new DC. On offense, is John Jerry really the best we could do? If you're going to see what Finley can bring, then take the friggin leash off. Throw the ball down the field! Where are the screen passes! As pour as this line is, that play might actually work! Unbelievable our Wrs still are blanketed and our qbs have the smallest window in the nfl to throw the ball. 
 It will be interesting to see what this team does in the spring. The needs on offense and defense are overwhelmingly staggering. I should throw Bullock in there also... 

[sandwedge]

(11-18-2019, 11:58 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, and not to mention going 2-9 to close out 2018.

Fact is this team has been bad since the middle of 2015 !

Since the 8-0 start to 2015 the remainder of the games coached by ML lead Bengals went 23-33. 5 of those 23 victories were against the Browns !! who won like 5 games in 3 seasons.

17 wins remaining. 7 of those 17 victories were against teams with season records of 5-11 or worse. That's 12 wins, OVER HALF, against teams with 5-11 record or worse.

10 wins remaining. I didn't go thru every one of them but at least 3 are against teams who finished under .500

The Bengals have like 6 or 7 wins against teams with winning records (for that season) since the middle of 2015 thru end of 2018.

People need to stop acting like the Bengals after the start to 2015 were good, on the cusp, about to break out, a couple players away, or however you want to put it ? Under ML

ZT inherited a very bad team......period

Having said all of that even I am on the fence about him.

Well said. People want to act like letting Whit and Zeitler leave was the beginning of the end, fact is we were bad their last season they played as  Bengals. 
As for Taylor, it's his 1st gig as HC and I think he will get better. Look at Matt Patricia, he was horrid in Detroit last year and they have been playing great this year. I would like to see Zac relinquish his title of OC. Let Callahan take over as OC. Find a new DC, new o-line coach.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-18-2019, 11:58 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, and not to mention going 2-9 to close out 2018.

Fact is this team has been bad since the middle of 2015 !

Since the 8-0 start to 2015 the remainder of the games coached by ML lead Bengals went 23-33. 5 of those 23 victories were against the Browns !! who won like 5 games in 3 seasons.

17 wins remaining. 7 of those 17 victories were against teams with season records of 5-11 or worse. That's 12 wins, OVER HALF, against teams with 5-11 record or worse.

10 wins remaining. I didn't go thru every one of them but at least 3 are against teams who finished under .500

The Bengals have like 6 or 7 wins against teams with winning records (for that season) since the middle of 2015 thru end of 2018.

People need to stop acting like the Bengals after the start to 2015 were good, on the cusp, about to break out, a couple players away, or however you want to put it ? Under ML

ZT inherited a very bad team......period

Having said all of that even I am on the fence about him.

Aside from drafting Andy and AJ in 2011, the key difference was adding Jay Gruden as Offensive Coordinator.  Zimmer continued to retool the defense and upgrade his assistants.  This team will definitely need to work hard on getting upgrades at both coordinator positions.  I don't like the idea of getting rid of Taylor so quickly, it would look very "knee-jerk", and would likely only further to discourage any legitimate coaching talent from coming here.

Aside from turning things over to an actual General Manager, and allowing him to make the personnel and coaching moves that quality GMs do, I think that is about the best we can hope for.  Oh that, and to win the lottery when it comes to hitting on draft talent..

[HuDey]

(11-18-2019, 12:09 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I've refrained from posting here awhile, after getting to glimpse some of the game yesterday via RedZone, I expect a major overhaul this off season. I still think HC Taylor will take a big leap next year, but not with the players or assistants he has now. What I saw yesterday was players taking plays off, a defense that is very bad. Time for a new DC. On offense, is John Jerry really the best we could do? If you're going to see what Finley can bring, then take the friggin leash off. Throw the ball down the field! Where are the screen passes! As pour as this line is, that play might actually work! Unbelievable our Wrs still are blanketed and our qbs have the smallest window in the nfl to throw the ball. 
 It will be interesting to see what this team does in the spring. The needs on offense and defense are overwhelmingly staggering. I should throw Bullock in there also... 

This offseason is huge for Taylor. He HAS to nail this draft. As you said, we need a major overhaul on both sides of the ball and it's up to Taylor to figure out how to do that while working under the Mike Brown limitations. I am a little encouraged that Taylor at least has the sack to make needed changes such as moving on from Dalton, but he can't stop there. There is much work to be done and this is no job for a yes man.

With this said, I am sticking with the wait and see approach on Taylor, but I could sour on him very quickly if he doesn't make strides in the right direction.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-18-2019, 12:18 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Well said. People want to act like letting Whit and Zeitler leave was the beginning of the end, fact is we were bad their last season they played as  Bengals. 
As for Taylor, it's his 1st gig as HC and I think he will get better. Look at Matt Patricia, he was horrid in Detroit last year and they have been playing great this year. I would like to see Zac relinquish his title of OC. Let Callahan take over as OC. Find a new DC, new o-line coach.

The Lions are 3-6-1. I wouldn't call that 'great'.

re: Zac...you were one of the ones that argued that he was turning things around after the 1 point Seattle loss. Where have you been the past 10 weeks or so?

[R3stangs]

(11-18-2019, 11:09 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My, how soon people forget that Marvin Lewis coached the Bengals to a 10 game losing streak in 2010, just a year before they went on a 5 year playoff run that included a couple of division Championships.

Do you feel this team is on the verge of a playoff run?

Understand what you're saying but I have not faith this current staff can right this ship. Players are quitting on them, talent if woefully short, coaching in general seems virtually non-existant.

Its ugly and not spelling success in any foreseeable future right now.

[bengalguy71]

(11-18-2019, 12:25 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: There are times for staying the course. There are times for making a change. Honestly, it’s time for a change and I’m sorry to say it. Like many, I gulped down the Zac Taylor “New Dey” Kool-Aid and it tasted so sweet at first — but this Kool-Aid was filled with artificial sweetener, not the real thing. It turns out all of us — Mike Brown included — were sold a bill of goods. If Zac was a car he would be a lemon. He might have nailed the interview but it seems he might have exaggerated a bit — or a lot.

I would cut bait because it’s not getting better. I fear further regression.

Well said, as most of your posts are, but, as I said in my Mike Brown post, it comes down to what do we think Mike Brown will truly do, minus parody and exaggeration either way?

[THE PISTONS]

(11-18-2019, 12:41 PM)HuDey Wrote: This offseason is huge for Taylor. He HAS to nail this draft. As you said, we need a major overhaul on both sides of the ball and it's up to Taylor to figure out how to do that while working under the Mike Brown limitations. I am a little encouraged that Taylor at least has the sack to make needed changes such as moving on from Dalton, but he can't stop there. There is much work to be done and this is no job for a yes man.

With this said, I am sticking with the wait and see approach on Taylor, but I could sour on him very quickly if he doesn't make strides in the right direction.

The thing is, it's hard to nail a draft when you can't coach players.

Look how many guys regressed this year. It's coaching.

[*ochocincos*]

The big reason why people thought this could be a winning season was because of how easy the schedule looked to be.
Teams like BUF, ARI, and SF were all expected to be maybe slightly better but not actual winning teams.
But even then, it does say something that this new crew is 0-10.
They better make plenty of roster moves in the offseason because it's pretty evident they don't have good enough and/or the right players for this offensive and defensive scheme.
The sad part is it took them until the bye week to realize how to effectively run block with these players when Pollack figured it out so much faster last year. They could have just looked at last year's tape in the offseason to see how to be effective.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

He will survive 0-16 this year .would he survive 0 - 16 next year? The scary thing is he would be 70 30 to stay for year 3 if that scenario happens. You would think concerning our next hire would make that position extremely valuable.

[HuDey]

(11-18-2019, 02:11 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The thing is, it's hard to nail a staff when you can't coach players.

Look how many guys regressed this year. It's coaching.

I'm not saying that coaching is not a problem. I would love to see Anarumo and Jim Turner replaced as soon as possible with proven alternatives. I also wouldn't mind seeing a proven offensive coordinator calling the plays. All I am saying is give Taylor an opportunity to make the proper changes to his staff and roster before we decide that he can't do it. It makes no sense to can him after one season unless you can get a proven winner, and proven winners have options, and people with options typically don't choose to work for Mike Brown.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(11-18-2019, 11:46 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We won 6 games last year. Immediate improvement is 7-8 wins.

We have ZERO wins.


And getting worse before it gets better...generally entails doing what the Dolphins did. We didn't do that. We largely have the same roster as last year...and 0 wins.

While true, I don't think we really were a 6 win level team last year. We pulled off some pretty good early wins, but I honestly felt like I was watching a 3-4 win team all year, they just did well early doors to make it a 6 win season.

But that said, 0 wins this year and tbh we don't look like getting more than 1 at most. Taylor's had the cards stacked against him but we look absolutely awful. This year makes Marvin Lewis look like a messiah ffs.

[Timanky12]

(11-18-2019, 03:34 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: While true, I don't think we really were a 6 win level team last year. We pulled off some pretty good early wins, but I honestly felt like I was watching a 3-4 win team all year, they just did well early doors to make it a 6 win season.

But that said, 0 wins this year and tbh we don't look like getting more than 1 at most. Taylor's had the cards stacked against him but we look absolutely awful. This year makes Marvin Lewis look like a messiah ffs.