Why Andy Dalton Needs to Start Again

[BengalsRocker]

(11-19-2019, 08:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I wonder why he used completion % instead of passer rating? Completion % can be misleading if the guy is hitting a RB for a 2 yard gain on 3rd and 10 while the other QB is completing less while actually trying to move the sticks. Goodberry is a notorious Dalton hater and really dug deep to make Finley look better here.

To the OP, the bridge has been burned. They made their decision and going back on that now would look pretty dumb. The Dalton era is over. For better or worse, Finley is the guy for the remainder of the season, and Dalton deserves (and will request) a shot elsewhere after this season. You also don't keep a $17 million dollar backup. Not smart money. Not that Mike is smart with his money.

Not if Brown, Blackburn, and Tobin play the blame game with Zac Taylor.

They could very easily fire Taylor and bring in someone like Gruden(who is definitely Andy's guy)to smooth things out.

Familiarity to a Dalton friendly offense might be enough to get him and AJ back to good with ownership.

I know you all hate it and think Gruden is not the guy here.

Obviously I don't care because I'd take Hue back as OC as well.

These pipe dreams of Zac being the boy wonder or some notable coach outside of the "Brown family plan" are sad.

Almost as sad as the realization by me that we might be stuck with this boot licking excuse of a HC.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-19-2019, 08:57 PM)jason Wrote: What's changed in 2 and a half years from when nobody but us would draft Mixon? He's had one good season in the NFL, and plays the most expendable position in the game. I don't disagree that he'll leave, but I doubt he's gonna have a ton of suitors backing up the Brink's truck to his door.

I never said anyone would give Todd Gurley money to Mixon. Just saying that he will have options and he'd be much better off elsewhere. Averaging 3 ypc behind a doo-doo line isn't helping his career earnings potential. He's better off signing elsewhere and showing what he can really do so he can possibly get to the "brinks truck" level. It certainly isn't happening here anytime soon.

Btw, good RB's still have value in the NFL. That's why the best ones get paid and the best college ones are still being drafted high. It's not as expendable as some think.

[HarleyDog]

(11-19-2019, 10:10 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Please read this entire post before flaming me.

I'll try, but it was a horrible day at work. So, let's try this.

Quote:Yes, it's true.  Andy Dalton needs to start one or two more games for the Cincinnati Bengals in 2019.  I'm not against Ryan Finley so don't misunderstand; this is about the future of the team.  It's painfully obvious to all observers that the Bengals have a multiplicity of issues:  Coaching, personnel, and scheme.  Simply going after Tua Tagovailoa, Jalen Hurts, or Joe Burrow will solve next to nothing, unfortunately, because this team is more than just a new quarterback away from success.  If it were up to me I would fire every coach except for special teams and take a blowtorch to the entire roster -- but that's not Mike Brown's way.  Therefore, working within the confines imposed by the Front Office, let's look at a realistic way to begin the rebuild in Cincinnati.

Gotta stay away from Dalton and keep Finley in at least 4-5 games if not more. He's a rookie and he needs a chance to adapt to the speed of a real NFL game vs. preseason. Same with the coaching staff. Zac was handed an unfortunate late start, not to mention the fiasco with trying to get coaches. Dude is not the problem. Plus, he's learning as well. He does need to give that play-calling duty up tho. ZT does seem to prepare the team better for teams he's faced prior. Just my insight.

Quote:First of all, every coach will likely be retained in 2020.  Mikey Boy will cite injuries and something about giving the new coaches a chance to turn it around taking more than one season.With zero likely coaching changes, who can realistically be drafted, traded, or retained?

I think ZT will let a few coaches go. This is his first look. He assembled a team of coaches and is evaluating all of them. Next season we will have different faces in the coaching staff. As for the drafting, trading or retaining players, unfortunately, I think his hands will be somewhat tied with this FO. He will have imput, but that's about it.

Quote:As of now I think the Bengals' best strategy is to build a shutdown defense around Chase Young from Ohio State.  He's the best defensive player I've seen in years and his impact in Cincinnati could mirror that of Nick Bosa in San Francisco.  Geno Atkins looked better against Oakland but he's not getting any younger.  He's going to need fast edge rushers so having Young on one side with Sam Hubbard on the other side would be a needed improvement to the Bengals' almost nonexistent pass rush.

Why is it players from Ohio State that come here don't do well? It's hard for me to comment on this. I know the coaching has been an issue but damn? I will throw out that any player on D who came here from anywhere under Mike Z's defense had a better chance at success.

Quote:So what about the quarterback position?  I know Mike Brown strikes at shiny objects faster than a hungry barracuda and a big arm quarterback, to Mike's eye, is the shiniest object there is.  I'm all for having Ryan Finley play more games in 2019 but, circling back to my original proposal I think it's time for Andy Dalton to play at least two more games as well.  Teams interested in Dalton need fresh film on him and the Bengals need to win just one game to avoid 0-16 which I find a wholly unacceptable record.  Also, since Dalton has one more year on his contract, he could potentially function as the "bridge" quarterback in 2020 while the Bengals look to Justin Fields or Trevor Lawrence -- or Tua Tagovailoa if he stays at Alabama -- in 2021.

Tua may be done for life so I won't focus on him. I don't think we are going to get much from Dalton. He had the look of wanting to win the job back but what do we really do if he wins a game? Does MB say he still has it and signs him again? Dalton scares me now, just sayin. A win IMO needs to come from Finley or Dolegala unless we have neither, then we go back to AD (now who's putting themselves on the flame soapbox)?

Quote:If Andy Dalton does not play well in the late games there is a plethora of experienced quarterbacks worth consideration to be the "bridge" for Cincinnati in 2020.  Philip Rivers or even Eli Manning might be great "bridge" quarterbacks to bring in for a season; Drew Brees will be too expensive and Dak Prescott will stay in Dallas.  I would even consider bringing Jameis Winston in for a workout but, even better, what about taking a look at Cam Newton?  If he's healthy he can still compete.

Not sure having a bridge is the right course of action?

Quote:Basically, Bengaldom, we have more options than just Andy Dalton, Ryan Finley, or falling into the trap of drafting a shiny object.

True. However, IMO, we really have to focus on this OL and D. Although I remember NO and KC having shady D's last year and having good seasons because of offensive strength, I don't see that working here. Although, AFCN is in a total rebuild mode with the exception of Baltimore. 

This whole thing sucks anyways. Such a depressing season with so many problems. Let's just have a beer and talk about boobies.

[*jason*]

I keep seeing people post that Finley needs more time to adapt to the NFL... That's all fine and good on the mental side of the game, but he doesn't appear to have the physical tools either.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-19-2019, 09:06 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Not if Brown, Blackburn, and Tobin play the blame game with Zac Taylor.

They could very easily fire Taylor and bring in someone like Gruden(who is definitely Andy's guy)to smooth things out.

Familiarity to a Dalton friendly offense might be enough to get him and AJ back to good with ownership.

I know you all hate it and think Gruden is not the guy here.

Obviously I don't care because I'd take Hue back as OC as well.

These pipe dreams of Zac being the boy wonder or some notable coach outside of the "Brown family plan" are sad.

Almost as sad as the realization by me that we might be stuck with this boot licking excuse of a HC.

Mike Brown firing a HC after one season? That's tough to imagine. Dave Shula set the record for fastest to 50 losses due to Mike Brown's indifference patience. That's a record that will never be broken by any other team. That included the only other 0-10 start in team history (1993). Shula got 2.5 more seasons after that.

All that said, IF by some chance Mikey actually fires Zac and hires Jay, then I guess there's a tiny sliver of a chance that we draft Chase Young and keep Andy. Even then, it's tough to see us doing anything to smooth Dalton over. He's pretty fired up. Plus how often do you get a crack at the top QB prospect coming off a dream season (Joe Burrow)?

Fwiw, I'd welcome Jay Gruden after this mess. Not for 16 years like Marvin, but I'd rather give him a shot than give Taylor another year or 3.

[GreenCornBengal]

I'm not sure if you want a bridge QB who has been mistreated by his franchise.... He'll tell him to get outta town after his rookie contract.

We need to draft some otherworldly quarterback who can carry an entire franchise on his back... I don't have much faith that will happen.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-19-2019, 09:53 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I'm not sure if you want a bridge QB who has been mistreated by his franchise.... He'll tell him to get outta town after his rookie contract.

We need to draft some otherworldly quarterback who can carry an entire franchise on his back... I don't have much faith that will happen.

Even if they did.

What tells us that Taylor is the one we want at the helm guiding the ship?

I think he's got the stink of failure on him before he stepped foot in PBS.

We all assume he'll hand the offensive play calling duties over at the end of the season.

What will you all say if he doesn't?

Will you honestly feel confident?

[GreenDragon]

Start him again. Let him get his numbers up to increase his trade value in the offseason.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2019, 02:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:

Now that we have two games from Ryan Finley, let's compare some stats.

Time to throw: 2.83 seconds (Dalton: 2.28)
Time in pocket: 3.01 seconds (Dalton: 2.39)
Under Pressure: 43% of dropbacks (Dalton: 31%)
Completion Percentage when under pressure: 64% (Dalton: 47%)

— Jeaux Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 19, 2019

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So finley has a full half second longer to throw the ball but he is under pressure more often than Dalton?

Trollberry and Pistons have both been known to make stuff up. This doesn't make any sense to me.

[Fullrock]

(11-20-2019, 01:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So finley has a full half second longer to throw the ball but he is under pressure more often than Dalton?

Trollberry and Pistons have both been known to make stuff up. This doesn't make any sense to me.

It makes sense because Finley is able to buy more time in the pocket with pocket awareness and able to extend plays with more mobility than Dalton.

[pdub2005]

(11-19-2019, 10:10 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Please read this entire post before flaming me.

Yes, it's true.  Andy Dalton needs to start one or two more games for the Cincinnati Bengals in 2019.  I'm not against Ryan Finley so don't misunderstand; this is about the future of the team.  It's painfully obvious to all observers that the Bengals have a multiplicity of issues:  Coaching, personnel, and scheme.  Simply going after Tua Tagovailoa, Jalen Hurts, or Joe Burrow will solve next to nothing, unfortunately, because this team is more than just a new quarterback away from success.  If it were up to me I would fire every coach except for special teams and take a blowtorch to the entire roster -- but that's not Mike Brown's way.  Therefore, working within the confines imposed by the Front Office, let's look at a realistic way to begin the rebuild in Cincinnati.

First of all, every coach will likely be retained in 2020.  Mikey Boy will cite injuries and something about giving the new coaches a chance to turn it around taking more than one season.

With zero likely coaching changes, who can realistically be drafted, traded, or retained?

As of now I think the Bengals' best strategy is to build a shutdown defense around Chase Young from Ohio State.  He's the best defensive player I've seen in years and his impact in Cincinnati could mirror that of Nick Bosa in San Francisco.  Geno Atkins looked better against Oakland but he's not getting any younger.  He's going to need fast edge rushers so having Young on one side with Sam Hubbard on the other side would be a needed improvement to the Bengals' almost nonexistent pass rush.

So what about the quarterback position?  I know Mike Brown strikes at shiny objects faster than a hungry barracuda and a big arm quarterback, to Mike's eye, is the shiniest object there is.  I'm all for having Ryan Finley play more games in 2019 but, circling back to my original proposal I think it's time for Andy Dalton to play at least two more games as well.  Teams interested in Dalton need fresh film on him and the Bengals need to win just one game to avoid 0-16 which I find a wholly unacceptable record.  Also, since Dalton has one more year on his contract, he could potentially function as the "bridge" quarterback in 2020 while the Bengals look to Justin Fields or Trevor Lawrence -- or Tua Tagovailoa if he stays at Alabama -- in 2021.

If Andy Dalton does not play well in the late games there is a plethora of experienced quarterbacks worth consideration to be the "bridge" for Cincinnati in 2020.  Philip Rivers or even Eli Manning might be great "bridge" quarterbacks to bring in for a season; Drew Brees will be too expensive and Dak Prescott will stay in Dallas.  I would even consider bringing Jameis Winston in for a workout but, even better, what about taking a look at Cam Newton?  If he's healthy he can still compete.

Basically, Bengaldom, we have more options than just Andy Dalton, Ryan Finley, or falling into the trap of drafting a shiny object.

If we draft Chase Young, there is a chance we improve enough to win more than 2 to 4 games, which could put us out of the top 5 in 2021. I want the best shot at a franchise QB, and I believe that is this year.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2019, 01:19 PM)Fullrock Wrote: It makes sense because Finley is able to buy more time in the pocket with pocket awareness and able to extend plays with more mobility than Dalton.

A QB can not be "avoiding pressure" if he is not "under pressure".  The "time to throw" is supposed to measure the pass protection.


O-linemen used to get blamed for sacks even when they held their blocks plenty long enough just because the QB held the ball too long.  One of the main points of these "next gen stats" was to specifically measure how quickly defenders beat blocker so that they can judge "pass protection" SEPERATE  from what the QB does under pressure.  A QBs ability to avoid pressure does not effect how quickly the pass rush applies pressure to him.

Plus Finley is not avoiding or extending anything.  He is getting sacked at a much higher rate (10.3) than Dalton (7.9). 

[*Nately120*]

(11-20-2019, 01:19 PM)Fullrock Wrote: It makes sense because Finley is able to buy more time in the pocket with pocket awareness and able to extend plays with more mobility than Dalton.

Finley does have the awareness to lock onto his first read and then run around like a maniac before fumbling...I'll give him that. The two biggest "wins" of the season are Finley running for his life and ZT flailing around like a rabid ape at the end of the Buffalo game.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-19-2019, 10:10 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Please read this entire post before flaming me.

Yes, it's true.  Andy Dalton needs to start one or two more games for the Cincinnati Bengals in 2019.  I'm not against Ryan Finley so don't misunderstand; this is about the future of the team.  It's painfully obvious to all observers that the Bengals have a multiplicity of issues:  Coaching, personnel, and scheme.  Simply going after Tua Tagovailoa, Jalen Hurts, or Joe Burrow will solve next to nothing, unfortunately, because this team is more than just a new quarterback away from success.  If it were up to me I would fire every coach except for special teams and take a blowtorch to the entire roster -- but that's not Mike Brown's way.  Therefore, working within the confines imposed by the Front Office, let's look at a realistic way to begin the rebuild in Cincinnati.

First of all, every coach will likely be retained in 2020.  Mikey Boy will cite injuries and something about giving the new coaches a chance to turn it around taking more than one season.

With zero likely coaching changes, who can realistically be drafted, traded, or retained?

As of now I think the Bengals' best strategy is to build a shutdown defense around Chase Young from Ohio State.  He's the best defensive player I've seen in years and his impact in Cincinnati could mirror that of Nick Bosa in San Francisco.  Geno Atkins looked better against Oakland but he's not getting any younger.  He's going to need fast edge rushers so having Young on one side with Sam Hubbard on the other side would be a needed improvement to the Bengals' almost nonexistent pass rush.

So what about the quarterback position?  I know Mike Brown strikes at shiny objects faster than a hungry barracuda and a big arm quarterback, to Mike's eye, is the shiniest object there is.  I'm all for having Ryan Finley play more games in 2019 but, circling back to my original proposal I think it's time for Andy Dalton to play at least two more games as well.  Teams interested in Dalton need fresh film on him and the Bengals need to win just one game to avoid 0-16 which I find a wholly unacceptable record.  Also, since Dalton has one more year on his contract, he could potentially function as the "bridge" quarterback in 2020 while the Bengals look to Justin Fields or Trevor Lawrence -- or Tua Tagovailoa if he stays at Alabama -- in 2021.

If Andy Dalton does not play well in the late games there is a plethora of experienced quarterbacks worth consideration to be the "bridge" for Cincinnati in 2020.  Philip Rivers or even Eli Manning might be great "bridge" quarterbacks to bring in for a season; Drew Brees will be too expensive and Dak Prescott will stay in Dallas.  I would even consider bringing Jameis Winston in for a workout but, even better, what about taking a look at Cam Newton?  If he's healthy he can still compete.

Basically, Bengaldom, we have more options than just Andy Dalton, Ryan Finley, or falling into the trap of drafting a shiny object.

Was hoping to see a better showing from Finley no question but everyone knows the film on Dalton.

I agree that we will definitely have a better shot at winning a game with Dalton and I don't like the thought of us going
0-16 and having that on the players psyche. So overall I guess I agree cause I want Chase Young with our pick over a 
QB early, build the Defense up. We have talented Offensive players, get the Line shored up and the Defense then go
from there.

Get our QB later.