Wanna see Herbert's flaws?

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 11:24 AM)Synric Wrote: Jacob Eason is an arm only. He is a statue that panics under pressure always going backwards instead of navigating the pocket. He has a big arm but is inaccurate sailing his intermediate passes regularly (10 to 19 yards). 

Jalen Hurts has the worst eyes in the draft he stares down his targets and when pressure comes he pulls his head and eyes down losing sight of the field (Sick of this after seeing Dalton do it for years). Hes a 1 read and run QB that doesnt make any of his checks it's all done on the sideline.

Tua Tagovailoa has had 3 major surgeries in 2 years. 

Jordan Love after a great 2018 season took a huge step back in 2019.

Jake Fromm loves to use touch outside the numbers but struggles trying to tread the needle in the middle of the field.

Anthony Gordon comes from that Mike Leach Air Raid which is designed to put up large QB numbers...but I like him in the 3rd round he might be the surprise QB of the draft.

Honestly, I think Jake Fromm could surprise people and be a late riser. The Dalton comparisons may be unfair the more I watch him as his deep ball accuracy may actually be his best trait. I think there will be teams that really fall in love with him after meeting with him. 

[SadFaceBengal15]

(11-25-2019, 11:24 AM)Synric Wrote: Jacob Eason is an arm only. He is a statue that panics under pressure always going backwards instead of navigating the pocket. He has a big arm but is inaccurate sailing his intermediate passes regularly (10 to 19 yards). 

Jalen Hurts has the worst eyes in the draft he stares down his targets and when pressure comes he pulls his head and eyes down losing sight of the field (Sick of this after seeing Dalton do it for years). Hes a 1 read and run QB that doesnt make any of his checks it's all done on the sideline.

Tua Tagovailoa has had 3 major surgeries in 2 years. 

Jordan Love after a great 2018 season took a huge step back in 2019.

Jake Fromm loves to use touch outside the numbers but struggles trying to tread the needle in the middle of the field.

Anthony Gordon comes from that Mike Leach Air Raid which is designed to put up large QB numbers...but I like him in the 3rd round he might be the surprise QB of the draft.

First of all when u hump the negative of every player u can convince yourself Noones worth drafting. I’ve watched a ton of tape on Eason and he makes plenty of plays outside the pocket and delivers darts more often than not on medium range throws and is very accurate down field and short range. He also shows good patience going through his progressions instead of just locking into one option. Yes there’s work that needs to be made with his game and I’ll concede his pocket awareness at times shows he needs work in that area but imo in the second round he is the best NFL qb value we can grab.
I’m not a fan of any of the other qbs u mentioned especially fromm. He is dalton 2.0. No thanks. Most importantly tho I like Eason in the second because I feel like chase young has to be the pick at 1 imo.
Also I’d only want them drafting either Burrow or Eason when it comes to qb or not a qb at all and just build the defense and offensive line. I worry about bringing anyone into this mess we have right now. We may need to keep adding pieces until we try and pull the trigger and bring in our future qb.

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2019, 11:42 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: First of all when u hump the negative of every player u can convince yourself Noones worth drafting.  I’ve watched a ton of tape on Eason and he makes plenty of plays outside the pocket and delivers darts more often than not on medium range throws and is very accurate down field and short range.  He also shows good patience going through his progressions instead of just locking into one option. Yes there’s work that needs to be made with his game and I’ll concede his pocket awareness at times shows he needs work in that area but imo in the second round he is the best NFL qb value we can grab.
 I’m not a fan of any of the other qbs u mentioned especially fromm.  He is dalton 2.0. No thanks.  Most importantly tho I like Eason in the second because I feel like chase young has to be the pick at 1 imo.
Also I’d only want them drafting either Burrow or Eason when it comes to qb or not a qb at all and just build the defense and offensive line.  I worry about being anyone into this mess we have right now.  We may need to keep adding pieces until we try and pull the trigger and bring in our future qb.

Enough said.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(11-25-2019, 11:40 AM)Au165 Wrote: Honestly, I think Jake Fromm could surprise people and be a late riser. The Dalton comparisons may be unfair the more I watch him as his deep ball accuracy may actually be his best trait. I think there will be teams that really fall in love with him after meeting with him. 

Vommit

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 11:48 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Vommit

I'm telling you he has gotten knocked a bit this year and it's partially due to the youth at receiver. He is a three year starter, he has played a lot of football something few others in this class have done. His ceiling may not be as high as others, but I think his floor is far higher than almost everyone in the class. If you could get him in the mid teens to early 20's you'd be doing pretty good for yourself as he could come in and play day 1 and be a competent starter as a rookie. Personally, I think the Chargers would be a perfect fit for him as he can step right in to a solid offensive team and keep them moving along if they can ever get healthy. 

[SadFaceBengal15]

(11-25-2019, 11:59 AM)Au165 Wrote: I'm telling you he has gotten knocked a bit this year and it's partially due to the youth at receiver. He is a three year starter, he has played a lot of football something few others in this class have done. His ceiling may not be as high as others, but I think his floor is far higher than almost everyone in the class. If you could get him in the mid teens to early 20's you'd be doing pretty good for yourself as he could come in and play day 1 and be a competent starter as a rookie. Personally, I think the Chargers would be a perfect fit for him as he can step right in to a solid offensive team and keep them moving along if they can ever get healthy. 

What u just said is exactly what dalton was. No thanks man.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-24-2019, 12:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: Right, any QB can make that. I’d rather talk about him throwing what should have been the game ending interception on this last drive. His decision making is so bad when his 1st receiver is covered.

This was always considered a concern with Herbert. It was the same with Mariota coming out.
A QB who doesn't go through progressions will have a real tough time in the NFL if he/she cannot learn that aspect.

Do you see this trait as something easier or harder to coach than other skills? I personally think it's harder, but I'm no QB guru.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-25-2019, 11:42 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: First of all when u hump the negative of every player u can convince yourself Noones worth drafting.  I’ve watched a ton of tape on Eason and he makes plenty of plays outside the pocket and delivers darts more often than not on medium range throws and is very accurate down field and short range.  He also shows good patience going through his progressions instead of just locking into one option. Yes there’s work that needs to be made with his game and I’ll concede his pocket awareness at times shows he needs work in that area but imo in the second round he is the best NFL qb value we can grab.
 I’m not a fan of any of the other qbs u mentioned especially fromm.  He is dalton 2.0. No thanks.  Most importantly tho I like Eason in the second because I feel like chase young has to be the pick at 1 imo.
Also I’d only want them drafting either Burrow or Eason when it comes to qb or not a qb at all and just build the defense and offensive line.  I worry about bringing anyone into this mess we have right now.  We may need to keep adding pieces until we try and pull the trigger and bring in our future qb.

But what if Eason is taken before Bengals pick in Rd 2? I keep seeing his name mentioned in Rd 1, especially now that Tua got hurt.
If that happens, you likely have Burrow, Herbert, Eason, and maybe Tua off the board.
Do you go with Fromm, Hurts, Love, or some other QB? Or do you wait it out another year with Dalton and Finley and hope the Bengals are drafting high enough or willing to move up enough to get one of the top 2021 QBs?

[*ochocincos*]

(11-25-2019, 09:14 AM)Au165 Wrote: This was his knock last year and why he went back to school. He is still the same guy, which tells me he will be the same guy in the NFL. 

He also had a big issue last year with completion percentage. He's improved that this season, but he still goes to his first read too much.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(11-25-2019, 02:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But what if Eason is taken before Bengals pick in Rd 2? I keep seeing his name mentioned in Rd 1, especially now that Tua got hurt.
If that happens, you likely have Burrow, Herbert, Eason, and maybe Tua off the board.
Do you go with Fromm, Hurts, Love, or some other QB? Or do you wait it out another year with Dalton and Finley and hope the Bengals are drafting high enough or willing to move up enough to get one of the top 2021 QBs?

Personally I’m not sold on drafting a qb this year. It’s not my first choice. This roster is not ready to bring in a our rookie future qb. We need to get pieces in place before we can put a qb behind this offensive line. Imo u go chase young and if ur an isn’t there in 2 go offensive line or linebacker in round three go offensive line or linebacker and so on and so fourth.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-23-2019, 11:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Just watch tonight's game.  For whatever reason, Arizona St. seems to be having Oregon's number, especially when they're playing in Tempe.  Herbert, despite all of his physical tools, is pretty much doing his best Carson Palmer imitation.  i.e. Just standing there and over and underthrowing receivers, staring guys down and telegraphing his moves.

They say that watching college stars in their worst games is about equal to seeing how they will react to life in the NFL.  If that is true, perhaps Herbert, with all of his experience, isn't the guy that the Bengals should be looking at?

Herbert may have an NFL arm but his decision making is like freshman in HS level. All that "experience" hasn't helped, at all.

Pass

[SadFaceBengal15]

(11-25-2019, 02:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But what if Eason is taken before Bengals pick in Rd 2? I keep seeing his name mentioned in Rd 1, especially now that Tua got hurt.
If that happens, you likely have Burrow, Herbert, Eason, and maybe Tua off the board.
Do you go with Fromm, Hurts, Love, or some other QB? Or do you wait it out another year with Dalton and Finley and hope the Bengals are drafting high enough or willing to move up enough to get one of the top 2021 QBs?

Personally I’m not sold on drafting a qb this year. It’s not my first choice. This roster is not ready to bring in a our rookie future qb. We need to get pieces in place before we can put a qb behind this offensive line. Imo u go chase young and if ur an isn’t there in 2 go offensive line or linebacker in round three go offensive line or linebacker and so on and so fourth.

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 02:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He also had a big issue last year with completion percentage. He's improved that this season, but he still goes to his first read too much.

The answer was more screens this year. I would love to see a breakdown as just the tape I have seen they are running a lot more mid screens and bubble screens this year than last. His deep ball accuracy has improved but it's usually off of a bubble screen setup similar to what happened late in that AZ ST game this weekend. 

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 02:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This was always considered a concern with Herbert. It was the same with Mariota coming out.
A QB who doesn't go through progressions will have a real tough time in the NFL if he/she cannot learn that aspect.

Do you see this trait as something easier or harder to coach than other skills? I personally think it's harder, but I'm no QB guru.

A lot of college systems today have very defined reads built into the plays in a single route combination. When a play is called it is expected you will get one of a few coverage pre snap. When you see the whole offense look over to the sideline they are checking with the coach to see if the defense is aligned presnap to work inside of one of the predefined reads. For instance if I have a curl flat combo to my front side and a smash concept on the backside I will check with the coach presnap. If the coach is seeing cover two he will tell me I am working the backside smash concept, but if it looks like man or even cover 3 presnap he will tell me to throw the front side curl flat combo. If they don't like anything they may check back to a run, or maybe an RPO. 

These "check with me" offenses that use coaches on the sideline make it hard to tell what they can and can't do because you don't know if it's a product of being unable to or because the coach prefers to make the call. Normally those same things are built into a play now but the QB is tasked with making that decision presnap then confirming with safety rotation and Lb movement post snap to find the proper read. Basically this is all a long way of saying he may be able to but if you aren't tasked with it often and when your read is locked down from a miss read presnap you struggle to find an outlet for the ball it tends to make me think your leash in the NFL will be up before you learn it.

Funny story, there was a QB for the Jets a couple years back who said he learned how to read coverage from playing Madden. I want to say it was Bryce Petty who came out of one of these check with me offenses at Baylor and was never tasked with actually learning to read a coverage and make proper reads. Everyone who keeps saying they love Hurts is going to fall prey to a similar issue, the scheme at Oklahoma lays out very defined reads and he stares down that read and then runs if it's not there.

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 02:13 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: What u just said is exactly what dalton was.  No thanks man.

Honestly, and people will freak out about this, Andy Dalton with an offensive minded coach like Andy Reid or Sean Peyton would have been a playoff winning QB. All things considered, including three different coordinators his first 4 years, he actually did really well with the dysfunction. Everyone likes the Andy Dalton comp but I could just as easily do Matt Ryan as the comp, just a little bit shorter. 

In reality Dalton ran a spread in college and played in the Big 12 where defense was optional. Fromm has spread elements but plays under center a fair amount of time and is used to executing bootlegs and five step drops against some of the best defenses in the country. Fromm is a much better prospect than Andy Dalton ever was and frankly it isn't really close. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-25-2019, 03:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: A lot of college systems today have very defined reads built into the plays in a single route combination. When a play is called it is expected you will get one of a few coverage pre snap. When you see the whole offense look over to the sideline they are checking with the coach to see if the defense is aligned presnap to work inside of one of the predefined reads. For instance if I have a curl flat combo to my front side and a smash concept on the backside I will check with the coach presnap. If the coach is seeing cover two he will tell me I am working the backside smash concept, but if it looks like man or even cover 3 presnap he will tell me to throw the front side curl flat combo. If they don't like anything they may check back to a run, or maybe an RPO. 

These "check with me" offenses that use coaches on the sideline make it hard to tell what they can and can't do because you don't know if it's a product of being unable to or because the coach prefers to make the call. Normally those same things are built into a play now but the QB is tasked with making that decision presnap then confirming with safety rotation and Lb movement post snap to find the proper read. Basically this is all a long way of saying he may be able to but if you aren't tasked with it often and when your read is locked down from a miss read presnap you struggle to find an outlet for the ball it tends to make me think your leash in the NFL will be up before you learn it.

Funny story, there was a QB for the Jets a couple years back who said he learned how to read coverage from playing Madden. I want to say it was Bryce Petty who came out of one of these check with me offenses at Baylor and was never tasked with actually learning to read a coverage and make proper reads. Everyone who keeps saying they love Hurts is going to fall prey to a similar issue, the scheme at Oklahoma lays out very defined reads and he stares down that read and then runs if it's not there.

Very long way of saying it, but that makes sense. I agree, I think a lot of this is scheme-based brought on by the college staff, which isn't setting up players well for their NFL future. And also to your point, I don't think fans are willing to let a QB take 3+ years to develop, especially if drafted in the 1st round.

[Au165]

(11-25-2019, 04:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Very long way of saying it, but that makes sense. I agree, I think a lot of this is scheme-based brought on by the college staff, which isn't setting up players well for their NFL future. And also to your point, I don't think fans are willing to let a QB take 3+ years to develop, especially if drafted in the 1st round.

In reality though it's not that a lot of those concepts don't happen in the NFL but it's about the decision making of can this NFL defender get over to make the play. In these spread/air raid offenses it's about isolation and knowing your guy is better than their guy, which is a lot harder to do in the NFL. Some guys get to the NFL and figure it out, like a Gardner Minshew, others just never get it like 85% of all air raid QBs.