Fickle Fickle Fickle Fans

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 11:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is what is wrong with football fans.  A lot of fans think it "starts" with the QB.  That is patently false and why the Browns are so bad.  Even with a QB the Browns aren't all that great. 

No, it actually starts with the Ownership having a desire to win and compete.  Then possibly a GM (I am not of the opinion that a GM is needed), but definitely the Coaching staff.  The HC needs to have enough acumen to bring in the right OC, DC and STs coordinators.  Then working with them they need to bring in the right coaches for each position group.

Notice I said the right coaches and not the best coaches.  The right coaches understand your philosophy and will work and communicate with the coordinators to ensure that the team is prepared for whatever they may face.  The best coaches are great at motivating the players but may not understand the philosophy or try to undermine it.  It is OK if the coach has a different philosophy but if they undermine the HC's philosophy then it leads to bad things happening.

After all of that, you live and die by the trenches.  The OLine is the most important cog followed by the DLine.  A good/great OLine (that is properly coached) will make every other position better.  A great QB will make the OLine look better, but it won't translate to wins, but more "spectacular" plays by the QB going off script.

The only reason fans think we need a QB is because they thought Dalton was terrible.  Then the way the organization handled his benching has many thinking that Dalton will not play for us.  Again this is wrong.  Dalton would play for us, but ZT has to swallow his pride, call him in for a talk and sincerely apologize for they way everything was handled and then recommit to having Dalton as the QB.  Of course we all know that isn't going to happen and so fans are hoping that we grab a QB with our 1st pick.  These fans think we will all of a sudden be competitive, but the truth is that we will have a shiny new QB, but will still be losing games due to the above not being addressed 1st.

It's been that way for years here. People see Atkins, Green, Dunlap...the high end talent on the roster. But what's done us in even when we were good was the bad starters we had. You can hide 1 or 2 bad starters at a lot of positions, but when you have 3-4 on each side of the ball...you're in trouble. And then layer a bad scheme/playcalling on top of that...and it's bad.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(11-24-2019, 11:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's been that way for years here. People see Atkins, Green, Dunlap...the high end talent on the roster. But what's done us in even when we were good was the bad starters we had. You can hide 1 or 2 bad starters at a lot of positions, but when you have 3-4 on each side of the ball...you're in trouble. And then layer a bad scheme/playcalling on top of that...and it's bad.

Always comes down to coaching.

A good/great coach can take lower talent to the SB and even win them.  An average coach might catch fire and win 1 SB in a bunch of years, but a terrible coach can't win no matter who is on the roster.

I know this isn't the popular opinion on this board, but Billy Price is probably much better than he is playing for us.  However the roulette wheel on the OLine and the immediate change from Pollack to Turner has Price looking like a bust.

Our run game seems to improve the past 2 weeks, then it shuts down all of a sudden.  Price was benched and Glenn was put out there.  Consistency and familiarity leads to success.  You can't just throw new guys out on the line every week and expect it to gel, yet that it what Turner and Taylor are doing.  Result?  A top rated Center prospect looking lost and like a bust.

[kevin]

(11-24-2019, 09:20 PM)GodFather Wrote: Dalton stinks...

Play Finley

Bench Finley

Play Dalton

Wash, Rinse and Repeat

Listen this season has been over from the beginning. Dalton is done here, hes had his chance, Taylor puts in Finley to see if anything is there. Obviously hes a backup at best...but isn't that better than waiting till next year to find out? We need a number one draft QB next year.

And as unpopular it is to say this, I want them to tank out the rest of the season for a number one draft position next year. Lewis would have wins at the end of horrible seasons and all it would do is drop us in the draft and give Mike Brown hope and ammunition to say we have something going into next season and we never did. In my opinion it was a negative.

No coach is going to come in here with a team lacking in every category and pull out wins. Everyone cried to blow it up and rebuild, well this is what its like..

and expect next year not to be much better, maybe 6 wins at best....

This is BULL.  The team hasn't won a game in almost 365 days, not one win.  You are going to blame The Fans ????   I say BULL.   I say this team is lucky they have any fans left.  If they go 0-16 and over 365 days without a win, that means they will go close to 600 days without one single win.   Add in the only franchise with no play-off wins since 1991 and most 0-4 start seasons.  Blame The Fans, That is BULL.  Again, they are lucky they still have any fans left. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-24-2019, 10:18 PM)jason Wrote: The Colts thought it all started with the QB too. Then they fixed the lines. The problem was the QB got the shit beat out of him to the point that organs were getting lacerated... He quit this past summer.

It starts in the trenches, and we are sorely lacking there.

A big guy that holds onto the ball because he's a big guy and thinks he can take the pounding isn't a good example to use. Big Ben thought the same thing until he got smart and stopped taking so many hits. 

Burrow doesn't look like a guy that's willing to take all those hits so the example doesn't work here. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-24-2019, 11:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is what is wrong with football fans.  A lot of fans think it "starts" with the QB.  That is patently false and why the Browns are so bad.  Even with a QB the Browns aren't all that great. 

It does start with the QB. A good ownership knows this AND knows you need to protect him. 

QB, Edge rusher and OT are the 3 undisputed most important positions in football. 

If the Browns are so bad with Mayfield, how did he set rookie records last year? And how has he posted 90, 102, 92 and 118 ratings the last 4 weeks with 8TDs and 1 Int? He was playing like crap the first 7 games of the year but they've started to turn it around and he has a ton of talent around him. They're 5-6 and only a game behind the Steelers for the last playoff spot, with tie breakers and another game against them. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-24-2019, 11:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: After all of that, you live and die by the trenches.  The OLine is the most important cog followed by the DLine.  A good/great OLine (that is properly coached) will make every other position better.  A great QB will make the OLine look better, but it won't translate to wins, but more "spectacular" plays by the QB going off script.

The Steelers have a great Oline and a very good defense with a great pass rush. They're 6-5 and hanging on to the last playoff spot by a thread. 

They're in that position because they don't have a QB to make throws or plays to win games. 

Baltimore has a great Oline and a very good defense with a great pass rush. They're 8-2 and have the #2 seed currently. 

They're in that position because they have a QB that can make plays, with his arm and feet to win games. 

Those are the two teams that clearly make the point of how important a QB is. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-24-2019, 11:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: The only reason fans think we need a QB is because they thought Dalton was terrible.  Then the way the organization handled his benching has many thinking that Dalton will not play for us.  Again this is wrong.  Dalton would play for us, but ZT has to swallow his pride, call him in for a talk and sincerely apologize for they way everything was handled and then recommit to having Dalton as the QB.  Of course we all know that isn't going to happen and so fans are hoping that we grab a QB with our 1st pick.  These fans think we will all of a sudden be competitive, but the truth is that we will have a shiny new QB, but will still be losing games due to the above not being addressed 1st.

Dalton was terrible and deserved to be benched. 

With all due respect, doing what you suggest is the gayest thing i've ever heard suggested on a football team because no one, NO ONE, in the NFL is going to do anything like that. 

At his best, Dalton couldn't win a playoff game with very good teams around him. He's not going to find some magic fairy dust and, in his 11th season, suddenly going to be a playoff winning caliber QB. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-24-2019, 11:44 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Always comes down to coaching.

A good/great coach can take lower talent to the SB and even win them.  An average coach might catch fire and win 1 SB in a bunch of years, but a terrible coach can't win no matter who is on the roster.

I know this isn't the popular opinion on this board, but Billy Price is probably much better than he is playing for us.  However the roulette wheel on the OLine and the immediate change from Pollack to Turner has Price looking like a bust.

Our run game seems to improve the past 2 weeks, then it shuts down all of a sudden.  Price was benched and Glenn was put out there.  Consistency and familiarity leads to success.  You can't just throw new guys out on the line every week and expect it to gel, yet that it what Turner and Taylor are doing.  Result?  A top rated Center prospect looking lost and like a bust.

I respectfully disagree.....anytime an offensive lineman gets knocked flat on his ass.....several times.... that's on him, and him alone. That's candy ass.

The run game today was MUCH improved from the first Stooler game.

[BengalYankee]

(11-24-2019, 09:20 PM)GodFather Wrote: Dalton stinks...

Play Finley

Bench Finley

Play Dalton

Wash, Rinse and Repeat

Listen this season has been over from the beginning. Dalton is done here, hes had his chance, Taylor puts in Finley to see if anything is there. Obviously hes a backup at best...but isn't that better than waiting till next year to find out? We need a number one draft QB next year.

And as unpopular it is to say this, I want them to tank out the rest of the season for a number one draft position next year. Lewis would have wins at the end of horrible seasons and all it would do is drop us in the draft and give Mike Brown hope and ammunition to say we have something going into next season and we never did. In my opinion it was a negative.

No coach is going to come in here with a team lacking in every category and pull out wins. Everyone cried to blow it up and rebuild, well this is what its like..

and expect next year not to be much better, maybe 6 wins at best....

You really think this team that I have said for weeks will go 0-16 this season will win 6 games next year??? 

[HarleyDog]

(11-25-2019, 01:49 AM)kevin Wrote: This is BULL.  The team hasn't won a game in almost 365 days, not one win.  You are going to blame The Fans ????   I say BULL.   I say this team is lucky they have any fans left.  If they go 0-16 and over 365 days without a win, that means they will go close to 600 days without one single win.   Add in the only franchise with no play-off wins since 1991 and most 0-4 start seasons.  Blame The Fans, That is BULL.  Again, they are lucky they still have any fans left. 

When did he blame the fans?

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-24-2019, 09:49 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I stated that Ryan Finley was a questionable pick and that his throwing velocity reminded me of high school QBs.  Don't come crying to this fickle fan.

Finley was the only pick I didn't like in last year's draft.  Turns out we have an unknown, unused, ok, Finley, unknown, unknown, injured, and gone out of last year's draft.  Only way it becomes salvageable is if Williams and Sample go on to have really good careers.  

But, it is kind of funny how I liked all the picks so much, especially the late round RBs.  

[*PhilHos*]

(11-24-2019, 09:20 PM)GodFather Wrote: Dalton stinks...

Play Finley

Bench Finley

Play Dalton

Wash, Rinse and Repeat

Listen this season has been over from the beginning. Dalton is done here, hes had his chance, Taylor puts in Finley to see if anything is there. Obviously hes a backup at best...but isn't that better than waiting till next year to find out? We need a number one draft QB next year.

And as unpopular it is to say this, I want them to tank out the rest of the season for a number one draft position next year. Lewis would have wins at the end of horrible seasons and all it would do is drop us in the draft and give Mike Brown hope and ammunition to say we have something going into next season and we never did. In my opinion it was a negative.

No coach is going to come in here with a team lacking in every category and pull out wins. Everyone cried to blow it up and rebuild, well this is what its like..

and expect next year not to be much better, maybe 6 wins at best....

I get your point but the last 2 games were winnable.

The only reason people were calling for Dalton is because Dolegala was inactive. I don't think anyone would choose Dalton over Dolegala unless he plays like Finley or worse. We just are done with the Finley experiment.

Sent from my LG-Q710AL using Tapatalk

[XenoMorph]

(11-24-2019, 09:20 PM)GodFather Wrote: Dalton stinks...

Play Finley

Bench Finley

Play Dalton

Wash, Rinse and Repeat

Listen this season has been over from the beginning. Dalton is done here, hes had his chance, Taylor puts in Finley to see if anything is there. Obviously hes a backup at best...but isn't that better than waiting till next year to find out? We need a number one draft QB next year.

And as unpopular it is to say this, I want them to tank out the rest of the season for a number one draft position next year. Lewis would have wins at the end of horrible seasons and all it would do is drop us in the draft and give Mike Brown hope and ammunition to say we have something going into next season and we never did. In my opinion it was a negative.

No coach is going to come in here with a team lacking in every category and pull out wins. Everyone cried to blow it up and rebuild, well this is what its like..

and expect next year not to be much better, maybe 6 wins at best....

BBOOOOOOOO   no one wants to be 0-16... we need a win...


Finley might be backup material in the XFL but hes not close here.

[MEBengalsFan]

(11-24-2019, 09:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Except this team was in win now mode...not rebuild mode.

Teams that rebuild like the Dolphins trade players for picks. This team thought they'd make the playoffs this year going into the season.

The coaching has been HORRIBLE and made players regress on both sides of the ball.

Win now mode and we're 0-11.

When the Bengals were 0-1 and just out played the Seahawks in Seattle I believed in ZT and his team. Game 2 and going 0-2; I was like WTF happened. Every game after that I have lost faith in ZT and what he wants to do. I don't believe in him anymore. 

I never actually lost faith when ML was here. He was able to turn this organization around not once but twice and make the playoff with different leaders on both sides of the ball. I did question some of his play calling decisions during the games but overall I believed that he could take this team to the Super Bowl. 

ZT I don't think he can even reach 5 wins even if he had a team full of super stars. 

[Catmandude123]

(11-24-2019, 09:20 PM)GodFather Wrote: Dalton stinks...

Play Finley

Bench Finley

Play Dalton

Wash, Rinse and Repeat

Listen this season has been over from the beginning. Dalton is done here, hes had his chance, Taylor puts in Finley to see if anything is there. Obviously hes a backup at best...but isn't that better than waiting till next year to find out? We need a number one draft QB next year.

And as unpopular it is to say this, I want them to tank out the rest of the season for a number one draft position next year. Lewis would have wins at the end of horrible seasons and all it would do is drop us in the draft and give Mike Brown hope and ammunition to say we have something going into next season and we never did. In my opinion it was a negative.

No coach is going to come in here with a team lacking in every category and pull out wins. Everyone cried to blow it up and rebuild, well this is what its like..

and expect next year not to be much better, maybe 6 wins at best....

There are six or seven teams with three or less wins so wanting us to have six wins will get us nowhere in the rebuilding process. If we had a real GM they could parlay the #1 to turn the team around in as few as two years but the FO will muck it up as usual. 

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2019, 02:01 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It does start with the QB. A good ownership knows this AND knows you need to protect him. 

QB, Edge rusher and OT are the 3 undisputed most important positions in football. 

If the Browns are so bad with Mayfield, how did he set rookie records last year? And how has he posted 90, 102, 92 and 118 ratings the last 4 weeks with 8TDs and 1 Int? He was playing like crap the first 7 games of the year but they've started to turn it around and he has a ton of talent around him. They're 5-6 and only a game behind the Steelers for the last playoff spot, with tie breakers and another game against them. 

I still go back to the fact that we could buy an offensive line in free agency IF willing...and it will cost A LOT.

Sign Conklin at Tackle and Scherff at Guard and draft Burrow. Waive Glenn. Retain Hopkins.

Line: Conklin/Scherff/Hopkins/Miller/Williams <--- Top 10 line.

Draft Burrow in the 1st Round and his WR from LSU Jefferson in the 2nd. Tag and trade Green.

It's possible to rebuild this in a year with the RIGHT MOVES.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2019, 12:00 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: When the Bengals were 0-1 and just out played the Seahawks in Seattle I believed in ZT and his team. Game 2 and going 0-2; I was like WTF happened. Every game after that I have lost faith in ZT and what he wants to do. I don't believe in him anymore. 

I never actually lost faith when ML was here. He was able to turn this organization around not once but twice and make the playoff with different leaders on both sides of the ball. I did question some of his play calling decisions during the games but overall I believed that he could take this team to the Super Bowl. 

ZT I don't think he can even reach 5 wins even if he had a team full of super stars. 

There was no tape on this offense and defense that 1st game. Once there was, our scheme could be easily exploited.

I suspect that the players know the coaches are sub-par.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-25-2019, 12:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I still go back to the fact that we could buy an offensive line in free agency IF willing...and it will cost A LOT.

Sign Conklin at Tackle and Scherff at Guard and draft Burrow. Waive Glenn. Retain Hopkins.

Line: Conklin/Scherff/Hopkins/Miller/Williams <--- Top 10 line.

Draft Burrow in the 1st Round and his WR from LSU Jefferson in the 2nd. Tag and trade Green.

It's possible to rebuild this in a year with the RIGHT MOVES.

Yup. And there's more ways than one to do it. Your idea gets a  .

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2019, 12:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I still go back to the fact that we could buy an offensive line in free agency IF willing...and it will cost A LOT.

Sign Conklin at Tackle and Scherff at Guard and draft Burrow. Waive Glenn. Retain Hopkins.

Line: Conklin/Scherff/Hopkins/Miller/Williams <--- Top 10 line.

Draft Burrow in the 1st Round and his WR from LSU Jefferson in the 2nd. Tag and trade Green.

It's possible to rebuild this in a year with the RIGHT MOVES.

If they trade Dalton and trade/waive Glenn it would free up a ton of cap space to the already 60+million they have...(40m if they give AJ a Nice contract).

Jack Conkin isnt out of the question. Just Conklin Wiliams and Hopkins would be a huge start to fixing the offensive line.

...and they HAVE to spend 90% of the cap per league rules.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2019, 03:35 PM)Synric Wrote: If they trade Dalton and trade/waive Glenn it would free up a ton of cap space to the already 60+million they have...(40m if they give AJ a Nice contract).

Jack Conkin isnt out of the question. Just Conklin Wiliams and Hopkins would be a huge start to fixing the offensive line.

...and they HAVE to spend 90% of the cap per league rules.

Yessir. And I think Conklin is still only like 25 years old.

Scherff is 28. I'd sign him too. He's an elite Guard.

Why sign both? Because I'm SICK OF LOSING. Sick of it. It's disgusting to be 0-11.