Burrow/Young

[*psychdoctor*]

(12-02-2019, 04:34 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Considering his injury history and the WRs he played with at Bama, I would be shocked if Miami wanted Tua over Burrow.  When they are all evaluated at the combine, I think he will fall quite a bit.  

The reason I say this is possible is that Tua has the better arm and can make all the throws and he meets the traits of the new wave NFL QB teams seemingly like.  The success of Jackson will change how the NFL view QBs.  I think Herbert and Fromm will drop in value because of their pocket dependency style.  Burrow has some mobility, just enough to make him a classic mobile pocket passer but he will not be like Mayfield, Jackson.  

If Tua goes to the combine and runs well and makes those throws, he could still be viewed by some teams as the Best QB.  Not likely, but it is possible.  I am not sure how the Dolphins schemes fits each QB.  I think Burrow fits the Bengals scheme well.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-02-2019, 12:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, the way this franchise is ran...landing an elite QB is the only possible route to long-term success. I just doubt Taylor will be a great coach. So that leaves landing that QB.

Is a talented QB who has a bad coach as his HC+OC ever going to be successful? You don't see too many Drew Brees or Tom Bradys out there with Bill Lazor as their OC, or Dave Shula as their HC.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-02-2019, 05:42 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The reason I say this is possible is that Tua has the better arm and can make all the throws and he meets the traits of the new wave NFL QB teams seemingly like.  The success of Jackson will change how the NFL view QBs.  I think Herbert and Fromm will drop in value because of their pocket dependency style.  Burrow has some mobility, just enough to make him a classic mobile pocket passer but he will not be like Mayfield, Jackson.  

If Tua goes to the combine and runs well and makes those throws, he could still be viewed by some teams as the Best QB.  Not likely, but it is possible.  I am not sure how the Dolphins schemes fits each QB.  I think Burrow fits the Bengals scheme well.  

Not ready to buy into the "new wave" until I see one of them have a long successful career. Cam Newton seemed to last the longest, but even he started falling apart despite being built like a superhero. 

Lamar Jackson has run the ball 140 times this year. He is on pace for 187 carries. To give context, Cam Newton's career high rushes is 139, Michael Vick's was 123. There is a reason why RBs only last to about 30 in the NFL (with some exceptions). All those hits take a toll.

Brady is playing at 42.
Brees is playing at 40.
Rivers is playing at 37.
P Manning retired at 39.

Assuming Lamar Jackson doesn't break before he reaces that 30-31 RB age ceiling, you're still looking at giving up nearly an entire decade of QBing by being a running style QB.





- - - - - - - - - - -

(It also helps Lamar Jackson that his two years in the league he's had the 2nd and the 5th scoring defenses backing him up, and even if you removed his numbers, a great rushing offense. Even if you took away all of Lamar's rushing yards and didn't redistribute his carries, the Ravens would still be the 8th rushing offense in the NFL.)

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2019, 06:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Is a talented QB who has a bad coach as his HC+OC ever going to be successful? You don't see too many Drew Brees or Tom Bradys out there with Bill Lazor as their OC, or Dave Shula as their HC.

Yeah...which is why it's tough to make this team a winner. Getting all the necessary things in place seems like it just won't happen.

[Essex Johnson]

Not sold on Burrow, he was just ok last year, was hardly mentioned coming into this year in top 5 QBs.. yes wonderful season with a great LSU team. Over the past 21 years.. there have been 16 Qbs taken with 1st pick.. only two have won super bowls (Manning brothers), of the rest only two made it to the Super Bowl so far (Goff and Newton). Chase was already on the radar as a game changer coming in.. He is more of a single game changer than Burrow... I would not risk a #1 pick on Burrow (he seems like a 80s one hit wonder), I wish he was a Junior and then came back with back to back great seasons.. but he is not.. I would pass on him pick Chase.. look for a QB in 2nd round or wait one more year, let Dalton play out contract play a full season with an improved offense line and defense line and go from there in 2021

[Catmandude123]

(12-02-2019, 06:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Is a talented QB who has a bad coach as his HC+OC ever going to be successful? You don't see too many Drew Brees or Tom Bradys out there with Bill Lazor as their OC, or Dave Shula as their HC.

Great players make great coaches.

[Catmandude123]

(12-02-2019, 06:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Is a talented QB who has a bad coach as his HC+OC ever going to be successful? You don't see too many Drew Brees or Tom Bradys out there with Bill Lazor as their OC, or Dave Shula as their HC.

How many Super Bowls did Belichick win BEFORE Brady? QBs matter.

[N_B]

(12-02-2019, 09:16 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Not sold on Burrow, he was just ok last year, was hardly mentioned coming into this year in top 5 QBs.. yes wonderful season with a great LSU team. Over the past 21 years.. there have been 16 Qbs taken with 1st pick.. only two have won super bowls (Manning brothers), of the rest only two made it to the Super Bowl so far (Goff and Newton). Chase was already on the radar as a game changer coming in.. He is more of a single game changer than Burrow... I would not risk a #1 pick on Burrow (he seems like a 80s one hit wonder), I wish he was a Junior and then came back with back to back great seasons.. but he is not.. I would pass on him pick Chase.. look for a QB in 2nd round or wait one more year, let Dalton play out contract play a full season with an improved offense line and defense line and go from there in 2021

Things worked out pretty well when we drafted Carson Palmer, who had a mediocre junior year before breaking out his senior year

The reality is Burrow is putting up obscene numbers, using both basic numbers like YPA and advanced metrics like adjusted completion percentage. The Bengals would be fools not to take him number 1, no questions ask.

[*jason*]

(12-02-2019, 09:24 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Great players make great coaches.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Freddy Kitchens thinks this is funny...

[coachmcneil71]

(12-02-2019, 12:56 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: re: Chase Young - I know he's special and he's likely overrated due to being from OSU on this board...but I'll look past that.

We have Dunlap, Hubbard, and Lawson. How do you use Young and still get Hubbard, Dunlap, and Lawson on the field? So you take Young and likely take Lawson off the field? I guess you could move Hubbard inside like they did as a rookie...but he struggled there.

I know you need to rest guys, but it just seems like DE isn't a critical need.

LB, OL, starting TE, QB, and maybe a Safety that can cover is what I'd put our needs at.

You're correct about the "need" situation but that has hardly been a situation that has worked out well in this franchise's history. We needed O-Line so we drafted two supposed dominant OTs back to back; how did that work out? Not well. We have swung and missed many times while drafting for "needs".

Now, to the part where you seem to be being obtuse on purpose. You know full well that we can get all of those pass rushers on the field during obvious passing downs. There are many different variations that can be used in that situation. It would actually be a strength. They could kick Hubbard or Los in at DT, or they could put Lawson or Hubbard at OLB. And, the beauty of that situation is that the opposing Olineman would never know who they are going to be going against. You work that situation as a defense until you find the mismatch, then BAM! 

Our D is killing QBs!!! 

We all accknowledge that Burrow is playing at a high level, but don't be "that guy". Joe, being an Ohio product may be a very good thing, if he ends up here. Ts, your football knowledge is better than the first part of your post. Let's try to keep an open mind.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-02-2019, 09:24 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Great players make great coaches.

Matt Cassel with Patriots: 62.9% completion, 7.1 YPA, 1.77 TD per INT, 88.2 QB Rating
Matt Cassel without Patriots: 57.8% completion, 6.4 YPA, 1.17 TD per INT, 75.9 QB Rating

Drew Brees with Saints: 68.6% completion, 7.8 YPA, 2.46 TD per INT, 100.7 QB Rating
Drew Brees with Chargers: 62.2% completion, 6.8 YPA, 1.51 TD per INT, 84.9 QB Rating

Alex Smith with Chiefs: 65.1% completion, 7.2 YPA, 3.09 TD per INT, 94.8 QB Rating
Alex Smith with 49ers: 59.3% completion, 6.6 YPA, 1.29 TD per INT, 79.1 QB Rating

Ryan Tannehill with Dolphins: 62.8% completion, 7.0 YPA, 1.64 TD per INT, 87.0 QB Rating
Ryan Tannehill with Titans: 72.7% completion, 9.1 YPA, 3.00 TD per INT, 113.9 QB Rating (admittedly only an 8 game sample, but still)


Coaching matters a LOT. Great coaches have/make great schemes. It's why Mike Zimmer is always able to pick random joes off the street and create Top 10 defenses every single year. Terrence Newman, Roy Williams, Chris Crocker, Tank Johnson, Robert Geathers, etc, weren't making Mike Zimmer great. Lol

(12-02-2019, 09:32 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: How many Super Bowls did Belichick win BEFORE Brady? QBs matter.

Belichick won a playoff game with the Browns while starting a combination of Vinny Testiverde and Mark Rypien at QB. That's gotta be worth an honorary SB.

He made (but lost) a SB with the Patriots in '96 when he was Assistant HC.

Also his first SB win in 2001, Drew Bledsoe started 2 games that season AND threw 21 passes in the playoffs that year.

He also had Matt Cassel lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record. (They somehow missed the playoffs.)

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(12-02-2019, 09:56 PM)jason Wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Freddy Kitchens thinks this is funny...

True, but I was thinking more of "dumb people make dumb posts".

[GodFather]

I dont have any confidence in the front office with the 1st round picks. They seem to drop the ball alot more than scoring a nice #1. I wouldn't be surprised to see them pick Tua Tagovailoa and let Dalton play next year as he sits on the bench and heals/learns.

The Bengals are drawn to injured players...

[*jason*]

(12-02-2019, 10:03 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: You're correct about the "need" situation but that has hardly been a situation that has worked out well in this franchise's history. We needed O-Line so we drafted two supposed dominant OTs back to back; how did that work out? Not well. We swung and missed many times while drafting for "needs".

Now, to the part where you seem to be being obtuse on purpose. You know full well that we can get all of those pass rushers on the field during obvious passing downs. There are many different variations that can be used in that situation. It would actually be a strength. They could kick Hubbard or Los in at DT, or they could put Lawson or Hubbard at OLB. And, the beauty of that situation is that the opposing Olineman would never know who they are going to be going against. You work that situation as a defense until you find the mismatch, then BAM! 

Our D is killing QBs!!! 

We all accknowledge that Burrow is playing at a high level, but don't be "that guy". Joe, being an Ohio product may be a very good thing, if he ends up here. Ts, your football knowledge is better than the first part of your post. Let's try to keep an open mind.

That's where I'm at right now. I'm done with drafting for need. I think it's time to rebuild with BPA throughout the draft.

[*jason*]

(12-02-2019, 10:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Matt Cassel with Patriots: 62.9% completion, 7.1 YPA, 1.77 TD per INT, 88.2 QB Rating
Matt Cassel without Patriots: 57.8% completion, 6.4 YPA, 1.17 TD per INT, 75.9 QB Rating

Drew Brees with Saints: 68.6% completion, 7.8 YPA, 2.46 TD per INT, 100.7 QB Rating
Drew Brees with Chargers: 62.2% completion, 6.8 YPA, 1.51 TD per INT, 84.9 QB Rating

Alex Smith with Chiefs: 65.1% completion, 7.2 YPA, 3.09 TD per INT, 94.8 QB Rating
Alex Smith with 49ers: 59.3% completion, 6.6 YPA, 1.29 TD per INT, 79.1 QB Rating

Ryan Tannehill with Dolphins: 62.8% completion, 7.0 YPA, 1.64 TD per INT, 87.0 QB Rating
Ryan Tannehill with Titans: 72.7% completion, 9.1 YPA, 3.00 TD per INT, 113.9 QB Rating (admittedly only an 8 game sample, but still)


Coaching matters a LOT. Great coaches have/make great schemes. It's why Mike Zimmer is always able to pick random joes off the street and create Top 10 defenses every single year. Terrence Newman, Roy Williams, Chris Crocker, Tank Johnson, Robert Geathers, etc, weren't making Mike Zimmer great. Lol


Belichick won a playoff game with the Browns while starting a combination of Vinny Testiverde and Mark Rypien at QB. That's gotta be worth an honorary SB.

He made (but lost) a SB with the Patriots in '96 when he was Assistant HC.

Also his first SB win in 2001, Drew Bledsoe started 2 games that season AND threw 21 passes in the playoffs that year.

He also had Matt Cassel lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record. (They somehow missed the playoffs.)

Not to mention the Saints fell off the cliff while Sean Peyton was suspended after Bountygate. Coaching matters in the NFL... Now if we're discussing the NBA, then I would agree that great players make great coaches.

[Catmandude123]

(12-02-2019, 09:56 PM)jason Wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Freddy Kitchens thinks this is funny...

Kitchens doesn't have Brady. I will say it again . How many  super bowls does Belichick have without Brady . If you don't want to look it up the answer is ZERO. Belichick was a good coach but didn't become great until he got great players. I challenge any one to name a great player on this years Bengals roster. Burrow will have the chance to be their best player in his rookie year.

[Catmandude123]

(12-02-2019, 10:13 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: True, but I was thinking more of "dumb people make dumb posts".

I totally agree

[Catmandude123]

(12-02-2019, 10:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Also his first SB win in 2001, Drew Bledsoe started 2 games that season AND threw 21 passes in the playoffs that year.

I believe Brady was a rookie. Bledsoe was their golden boy but couldn't reclaim his starting job from a sixth round pick. BTW did those 21 passes win the super bowl for the Pats ? No but the ones Brady threw did.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-02-2019, 09:33 PM)N_B Wrote: Things worked out pretty well when we drafted Carson Palmer, who had a mediocre junior year before breaking out his senior year

The reality is Burrow is putting up obscene numbers, using both basic numbers like YPA and advanced metrics like adjusted completion percentage.  The Bengals would be fools not to take him number 1, no questions ask.

I say things worked out better with a 2nd round pick value of Dalton over Palmer.... well YOUNG has put together two unamazing years.. Bengals would be fools not to take him number 1.. over a possible 1 hit wonder.. 

[N_B]

(12-02-2019, 11:12 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I say things worked out better with a 2nd round pick value of Dalton over Palmer.... well YOUNG has put together two unamazing years.. Bengals would be fools not to take him number 1.. over a possible 1 hit wonder.. 

I think Palmer pre injury ran circles around Dalton, even in 2015