Silver Article on Palmer

[*Nately120*]

(10-02-2015, 12:01 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think you are seriously overestimating how well Palmer is regarded by NFL fans in general. Most fans are smart enough to realize that - while he looks good right now - from 2007-2013 he was average at best. He's looked great over his last 9 games, but he's yet to be tested by any great defenses over that span. He's yet to play the Seahawks, so we'll see how he does there.

Outside of a few posters on these boards, I just don't see many NFL fans raving about Carson Palmer, sorry. Mainly just dudes on here that still pine for the former Bengals QB now that he's finally looking good again. 10 years later.

I'm not saying Palmer is great, but you also have to realize that a number of NFL franchises have been shuffling QBs for years and probably wish they could have secured Carson from the Raiders for a 6th round pick, too.  Also, I'm not saying Carson is Warner, but no one was talking about Kurt Warner's not so hot stint with the Giants when he was taking the Cardinals to the Super Bowl.  People live in the now...which is why Dalton being listed so low on the QB ranking is worth debating.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-02-2015, 12:37 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying Palmer is great, but you also have to realize that a number of NFL franchises have been shuffling QBs for years and probably wish they could have secured Carson from the Raiders for a 6th round pick, too.  Also, I'm not saying Carson is Warner, but no one was talking about Kurt Warner's not so hot stint with the Giants when he was taking the Cardinals to the Super Bowl.  People live in the now...which is why Dalton being listed so low on the QB ranking is worth debating.

I think both Palmer and Dalton have people's attention, but we're going to need to see more in order for either one to be considered a top 10 type of QB.

I honestly think they're both in for great seasons. I just disagree that most non-Bengals fans would be quick to take Palmer over Dalton. I think they're held in similar regard and both have something to prove.

[*Nately120*]

(10-02-2015, 01:03 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think both Palmer and Dalton have people's attention, but we're going to need to see more in order for either one to be considered a top 10 type of QB.

I honestly think they're both in for great seasons. I just disagree that most non-Bengals fans would be quick to take Palmer over Dalton. I think they're held in similar regard and both have something to prove.

Yeah, for all the pro-Palmer hate I get tossed my way I never once in the past 4 years said he was a significantly better option in Cincy than Dalton.  The guy obviously is benefiting from having the first offensive-minded HC of his career, though. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-01-2015, 05:52 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: And this is the nomination for the stupidest post of the year. Outside of a very few posters on this form do you think anyone would take you serious if you were to say right now today you would rather have Dalton than Palmer....please bro give it a rest.  You can pretend that it's just some National slight against Andy but he's not a good quarterback and is it considered as such because he is unbelievably inconsistent. The reason he gets slammed is because his team is considered the in the top talent wise in the league despite Dalton. The team you mention with Plamer they had great stats because of Palmer do you see the difference?
Andy has accomplished exactly the same as what Palmer did...nothing in the playoffs spin it however you want it is still nothing in the playoffs. The reason he gets banged on is because any number of other quarterbacks would have advanced he is the Achilles' heel of this team.

No, I don't see a difference.  And thank you for your nomination.  Coming from you it is a real complement. 

If Dalton had the best talent in the league, why did everyone predict they would go 0-16 in a season where he was thrust in as starter (Palmer had a year to sit behind Kitna), had no OTAs, but still took them to the playoffs?  Palmer took a VERY talented team to the playoffs twice, and lost right away.  Don't make it sound like he was the reason they made the playoffs, either.  That 2009 team won because of defense and a healthy running game.  Not Palmer. 

You would think by now that the "any number of QBs could have advanced this team" would have stopped as people saw massive failures in the defense and injuries that lead in part to a much greater pass rush for the opposition, but facts are simply lost on people who would rather call Dalton an "Achilles Heel". 

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-02-2015, 12:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Looking over Carson's last 9 games, he's played some real cupcake defenses:

Chargers - 108.4 passer rating - Carson has always owned SD for some inexplicable reason.
Redskins - 93.9 - 20th ranked defense
Raiders - 103.3 - 21st ranked defense, 32nd in points allowed
Eagles - 90.3 - 28th ranked defense
Cowboys - 103.7 - 19th ranked defense
Rams - 76.3 - 17th ranked defense

Saints- 122.8 - Saints are atrocious right now
Bears- 115.5 - Possibly the worst pass D in the league right now
49ers- 102.5 - uh yeah, 49ers are also terrible

The last time he faced the Seahawks, he threw 4 int's.

And this is highlighting the UPSWING in his numbers.  The previous YEARS dating back to 2007 show a very average QB.  I also remember smiling from ear to ear when the steelers let go of Bruce Arians.  That guy can coach an offense, and an entire team now.  He was also awesome at Indy.  I still think Palmer will overestimate his arm and try to force in some throws against better defenses and his numbers will show that soon enough. 

[djs7685]

(10-02-2015, 08:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Don't make it sound like he was the reason they made the playoffs, either.  That 2009 team won because of defense and a healthy running game.  Not Palmer. 

Sad to see such hypocrisy coming from a guy that cries if anyone even insinuates that Andy had a lot of help from the rest of the team over his career.

[PDub80]

(10-02-2015, 08:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: No, I don't see a difference.  And thank you for your nomination.  Coming from you it is a real complement. 

If Dalton had the best talent in the league, why did everyone predict they would go 0-16 in a season where he was thrust in as starter (Palmer had a year to sit behind Kitna), had no OTAs, but still took them to the playoffs?  Palmer took a VERY talented team to the playoffs twice, and lost right away.  Don't make it sound like he was the reason they made the playoffs, either.  That 2009 team won because of defense and a healthy running game.  Not Palmer. 

You would think by now that the "any number of QBs could have advanced this team" would have stopped as people saw massive failures in the defense and injuries that lead in part to a much greater pass rush for the opposition, but facts are simply lost on people who would rather call Dalton an "Achilles Heel". 

^ Really disappointing post from someone who clearly invested in a #14 jersey.

I am really happy and surprised with how Dalton has played. He's been exactly what the team has needed and then some. But lets not let a 3 game streak from a notoriously streaky QB get in the way of facts.....

- You bring up Dalton's rookie year to dispute someone saying Dalton has had some of the most talented teams in the league to work with over the past 4 seasons? Way to take a snippet of a comment and twist it around. Reminds me of the ads for movies where they take a snippet of a quote and put it at the top. Reviewer writes "Tries to be the best QB ever" and the ad department turns it into "Best QB ever.". No one... repeat... no one has banged on Andy for his rookie year or said that his rookie year he had one of the most talented teams in the NFL. Yet, you twist it into that?

- Carson lost in the playoffs twice? Sure. Only, he played 2 snaps in one of them and the other was a collective melt down after a strong start where Coles fumbled the ball on the Jets 26 after a great kickoff return. Carson's play vs. the Jets in 2009 does not even come close to = Dalton filling his pants against the Chargers in 2013.

- The defense got them to the playoffs in 2009? That vaunted D that at the end of the season gave up 37 points to the Jets and got the ball ran all over them? In 2009 I remember Carson leading multiple 4th quarter comebacks. Especially the Browns game in OT when he literally told Marvin "No", called a timeout, and sent the punt team back off the field... Then went and got the first down so the kicker could win the game? Carson doesn't do that and the Bengals play for the tie, like Marvin wanted to do, and they don't make the playoffs that year at all.

- In 2006 & 2007, that killer D that Carson allegedly had stunk. In fact, most of Carson's career in Cincy it the D had been nowhere close to what AD has had to work with. Consider this: When combining the 2006 & 2007 seasons, if the Bengals D would have held opponents to 24 points or less they would have won 12 more games between the two seasons, had 1st round byes in both years, and one of the best records in the NFL. Marvin's teams stunk on D & special teams while Carson was in Cincy. S-T-U-N-K. And people want to be butt hurt that after 8 years of it Carson said he was out? Nothing had changed or had gotten better nor were there indicators of an up tick. Only AFTER Carson publicly humiliated the organization did things change.

- Everyone predicted 0-16 because based on how the Bengals were being coached and ran. And rightfully so, IMO. They were AWFUL and perennial under achievers and some of the worst coached teams in the NFL. Marvin has changed a lot since.

I think AD has played great and looks like a different QB so far this season. But he did last season after 3 games as well. I hope he continues. I want him to continue. Heck, if he can avg. a passer rating in the upper 90's for the season the Bengals should be a good bet to win a lot of games. But, that still doesn't make him as good as Carson nor change the fact that Carson would have been the superior talent/QB on this team over the last 4 seasons.

It's cute to root for AD, but maybe consider pumping the brakes on the revisionist history?

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-02-2015, 09:44 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ Really disappointing post from someone who clearly invested in a #14 jersey.

I am really happy and surprised with how Dalton has played. He's been exactly what the team has needed and then some. But lets not let a 3 game streak from a notoriously streaky QB get in the way of facts.....

- You bring up Dalton's rookie year to dispute someone saying Dalton has had some of the most talented teams in the league to work with over the past 4 seasons? Way to take a snippet of a comment and twist it around. Reminds me of the ads for movies where they take a snippet of a quote and put it at the top. Reviewer writes "Tries to be the best QB ever" and the ad department turns it into "Best QB ever.". No one... repeat... no one has banged on Andy for his rookie year or said that his rookie year he had one of the most talented teams in the NFL. Yet, you twist it into that?

- Carson lost in the playoffs twice? Sure. Only, he played 2 snaps in one of them and the other was a collective melt down after a strong start where Coles fumbled the ball on the Jets 26 after a great kickoff return. Carson's play vs. the Jets in 2009 does not even come close to = Dalton filling his pants against the Chargers in 2013.

- The defense got them to the playoffs in 2009? That vaunted D that at the end of the season gave up 37 points to the Jets and got the ball ran all over them? In 2009 I remember Carson leading multiple 4th quarter comebacks. Especially the Browns game in OT when he literally told Marvin "No", called a timeout, and sent the punt team back off the field... Then went and got the first down so the kicker could win the game? Carson doesn't do that and the Bengals play for the tie, like Marvin wanted to do, and they don't make the playoffs that year at all.

- In 2006 & 2007, that killer D that Carson allegedly had stunk. In fact, most of Carson's career in Cincy it the D had been nowhere close to what AD has had to work with. Consider this: When combining the 2006 & 2007 seasons, if the Bengals D would have held opponents to 24 points or less they would have won 12 more games between the two seasons, had 1st round byes in both years, and one of the best records in the NFL. Marvin's teams stunk on D & special teams while Carson was in Cincy. S-T-U-N-K. And people want to be butt hurt that after 8 years of it Carson said he was out? Nothing had changed or had gotten better nor were there indicators of an up tick. Only AFTER Carson publicly humiliated the organization did things change.

- Everyone predicted 0-16 because based on how the Bengals were being coached and ran. And rightfully so, IMO. They were AWFUL and perennial under achievers and some of the worst coached teams in the NFL. Marvin has changed a lot since.

I think AD has played great and looks like a different QB so far this season. But he did last season after 3 games as well. I hope he continues. I want him to continue. Heck, if he can avg. a passer rating in the upper 90's for the season the Bengals should be a good bet to win a lot of games. But, that still doesn't make him as good as Carson nor change the fact that Carson would have been the superior talent/QB on this team over the last 4 seasons.

It's cute to root for AD, but maybe consider pumping the brakes on the revisionist history?

You want more than Dalton's rookie season?  OK, when did Dalton begin to have a running game?  Palmer had Ced Benson (the good one) and Rudi Johnson. 

You point out that Dalton was so terrible in the playoff games (which he was for the first two), but you completely neglect the defense's struggles as well as the offensive line injuries that led to such a pass rush against Dalton. 

You rave about the defenses that Dalton has played for since his rookie season as the reason for your diminishing his accomplishments, but you completely ignore what that defense has done in those playoff performances.  Which is it?  Does the defense matter or not? 

I already answered the stupid "butthurt" and "Carson got the organization to change" in my earlier post so I won't rehash it.  You can choose to read it again if you like because you obviously didn't grasp it the first time. 

It's "cute" to root for the starting QB of my team?  Just stop...

[*Nately120*]

(10-02-2015, 08:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That 2009 team won because of defense and a healthy running game.  Not Palmer. 

I'll say the defense and Benson carried a lot of the load, but you seem to be forgetting those late-game, no-huddle, Bratkowski-free herorics Carson had.  You don't have to love the guy, but to act like Ryan Fitzpatrick (or comparable lower-tier QB) could have gotten the 2009 team to the payoffs is a bit off.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-02-2015, 09:44 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ Really disappointing post from someone who clearly invested in a #14 jersey.

I am really happy and surprised with how Dalton has played. He's been exactly what the team has needed and then some. But lets not let a 3 game streak from a notoriously streaky QB get in the way of facts.....

- You bring up Dalton's rookie year to dispute someone saying Dalton has had some of the most talented teams in the league to work with over the past 4 seasons? Way to take a snippet of a comment and twist it around. Reminds me of the ads for movies where they take a snippet of a quote and put it at the top. Reviewer writes "Tries to be the best QB ever" and the ad department turns it into "Best QB ever.". No one... repeat... no one has banged on Andy for his rookie year or said that his rookie year he had one of the most talented teams in the NFL. Yet, you twist it into that?

- Carson lost in the playoffs twice? Sure. Only, he played 2 snaps in one of them and the other was a collective melt down after a strong start where Coles fumbled the ball on the Jets 26 after a great kickoff return. Carson's play vs. the Jets in 2009 does not even come close to = Dalton filling his pants against the Chargers in 2013.

- The defense got them to the playoffs in 2009? That vaunted D that at the end of the season gave up 37 points to the Jets and got the ball ran all over them? In 2009 I remember Carson leading multiple 4th quarter comebacks. Especially the Browns game in OT when he literally told Marvin "No", called a timeout, and sent the punt team back off the field... Then went and got the first down so the kicker could win the game? Carson doesn't do that and the Bengals play for the tie, like Marvin wanted to do, and they don't make the playoffs that year at all.

- In 2006 & 2007, that killer D that Carson allegedly had stunk. In fact, most of Carson's career in Cincy it the D had been nowhere close to what AD has had to work with. Consider this: When combining the 2006 & 2007 seasons, if the Bengals D would have held opponents to 24 points or less they would have won 12 more games between the two seasons, had 1st round byes in both years, and one of the best records in the NFL. Marvin's teams stunk on D & special teams while Carson was in Cincy. S-T-U-N-K. And people want to be butt hurt that after 8 years of it Carson said he was out? Nothing had changed or had gotten better nor were there indicators of an up tick. Only AFTER Carson publicly humiliated the organization did things change.

- Everyone predicted 0-16 because based on how the Bengals were being coached and ran. And rightfully so, IMO. They were AWFUL and perennial under achievers and some of the worst coached teams in the NFL. Marvin has changed a lot since.

I think AD has played great and looks like a different QB so far this season. But he did last season after 3 games as well. I hope he continues. I want him to continue. Heck, if he can avg. a passer rating in the upper 90's for the season the Bengals should be a good bet to win a lot of games. But, that still doesn't make him as good as Carson nor change the fact that Carson would have been the superior talent/QB on this team over the last 4 seasons.

It's cute to root for AD, but maybe consider pumping the brakes on the revisionist history?

^ Really disappointing post from someone who obviously invested in a #9 jersey and just can't let go. 

- Carson had a substantially worse rating in the Jets game (58.3) than Dalton had against the Chargers (67.3). Yet it was nowhere near as bad in your view?

C'mon now... 

- You're right about 2009. How could a defense that allowed 37 points in that last game have led them to the playoffs? It had to be the QB who had a 1.7 passer rating in that very same game . In 2009, we ranked 4th in total defense and 9th in rush yards. Carson was 16th in passer rating and 18th in yards. Take what you will from that.

- Palmer had a killer D and run game in 2009. What did he do with it? He lost in round 1 and looked terrible in the process. Sound familiar? As for all the change you credit Palmer for, what exactly changed? The only coach they swapped was Brat. The scouting department is still small. They never built a practice facility. The biggest change (easily) was swapping Palmer and Chad for Dalton and AJ. 

As for your last paragraph, it's all your opinion. Period. An opinion that you simply cannot prove. Palmer has a career rating of 86.9 compared to 86.7 for Dalton, so it's odd that anyone would think there's a huge gap in talent between the two. Dalton is 4 for 4 in making the playoffs. Palmer has been there twice in 11 years. 

People can't talk Palmer up without including dozens of excuses, yet some of the same people mentioning all these excuses would rip anyone making excuses for Dalton. It's silly. Without using excuses for either QB, has Palmer's career been more impressive than Dalton's? IMO, that's an emphatic "no".

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-02-2015, 12:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll say the defense and Benson carried a lot of the load, but you seem to be forgetting those late-game, no-huddle, Bratkowski-free herorics Carson had.  You don't have to love the guy, but to act like Ryan Fitzpatrick (or comparable lower-tier QB) could have gotten the 2009 team to the payoffs is a bit off.

Hmmm.

Carson Palmer's 2009-

16 games  60% completion %, 3100 yards, 21 TDs, 13 INTs, QB rating of 83

Ryan Fitzpatrick's last 16 game season (for that offensive juggernaut Buffalo, in 2012):

16 games  60% completion %, 3400 yards, 24 TDs, 16 INTs, QB rating of 83


Good analogy. 

BTW, Andy Dalton's rookie season looked like this: 

16 games, 58% completion %, 3400 yards, 20 TDs, 13 INTs, QB rating of 80

[*Nately120*]

(10-02-2015, 02:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hmmm.

Carson Palmer's 2009-

16 games  60% completion %, 3100 yards, 21 TDs, 13 INTs, QB rating of 83

Ryan Fitzpatrick's last 16 game season (for that offensive juggernaut Buffalo, in 2012):

16 games  60% completion %, 3400 yards, 24 TDs, 16 INTs, QB rating of 83


Good analogy. 

BTW, Andy Dalton's rookie season looked like this: 

16 games, 58% completion %, 3400 yards, 20 TDs, 13 INTs, QB rating of 80

Are you intentionally missing the point?  Serious question.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-02-2015, 02:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you intentionally missing the point?  Serious question.

Clarifying statement for you:  I believe that the 2009 Bengals won in spite of Carson Palmer, and not because of him.  He was also, in his fifth season in the NFL, awful down the stretch and in the playoffs with the #4 defense in the NFL. In other words, yes, many average NFL QBs could have taken that team to the playoffs....because that is what the Bengals had in 2009:  an average NFL QB 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-02-2015, 10:53 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Clarifying statement for you:  I believe that the 2009 Bengals won in spite of Carson Palmer, and not because of him.  He was also, in his fifth season in the NFL, awful down the stretch and in the playoffs with the #4 defense in the NFL. In other words, yes, many average NFL QBs could have taken that team to the playoffs....because that is what the Bengals had in 2009:  an average NFL QB 

Honestly, outside of that 5 TD explosion in the Bears game, 2009 was a pretty awful season for Carson.

[*Nately120*]

(10-02-2015, 11:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Honestly, outside of that 5 TD explosion in the Bears game, 2009 was a pretty awful season for Carson.

Didn't the 2009 Bengals make a number of late-game drives to win games?  Did I just make that up? I'm talking about game-winning drives, not the fact that Carson's 2009 statline isn't pretty.

[StripesInSuffolk]

I can see which side of this discussion hasn't gotten over the past, and it isn't Carson Palmer.

[*Nately120*]

Are stats important or not?  

I say in 2009 Palmer wasn't that bad because he led a number of late-game drives that won games.  Detractors say "Yeah, but his statline wasn't pretty so we won despite him."  Ok, so then he has been putting up a top 5 QB statline for the past 18 games or so. "Yeah, but the Cardinals have just played 16 god awful teams, so his statline doesn't matter.  He's still not that good."

So whether his stats are not so great or right up there with the top-tier QBs we can still conclude that he isn't all that great?  Do stats matter or not?  Does the context and situation in which said stats are accumulated matter?  Also, I never made this into a Dalton vs. Palmer debate but I keep getting labeled someone who:

A.  Doesn't like/want Dalton as the Bengals QB
B.  Thinks Carson is better than Dalton
C.  Would rather have Carson as the Bengals QB than Dalton (this one is the furthest from the truth)

Other than jokingly acting like I think McCarron is the second coming of Tom Brady I don't think I've said much against Dalton.  My chief complaint with this team has been Marvin Lewis, and that has been constant throughout the end of the Palmer and the entirety of the Dalton era.

[GreenCornBengal]

(10-03-2015, 12:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are stats important or not?  

I say in 2009 Palmer wasn't that bad because he led a number of late-game drives that won games.  Detractors say "Yeah, but his statline wasn't pretty so we won despite him."  Ok, so then he has been putting up a top 5 QB statline for the past 18 games or so. "Yeah, but the Cardinals have just played 16 god awful teams, so his statline doesn't matter.  He's still not that good."

So whether his stats are not so great or right up there with the top-tier QBs we can still conclude that he isn't all that great?  Do stats matter or not?  Does the context and situation in which said stats are accumulated matter?  

Jumpin in here out of the blue. I think people like/dislike a QB for more emotional reasons whether they admit it or not.

There are statistics that show both guys are good QBs, but if they don't pass the 'eye test', then all logic is thrown out.

Both Dalton and Palmer have left some 'emotional scarring' on the fanbase which clouds their opinion of those players.

I mean, I get it.... I hear there are Eagles fans that dislike Donovan Mcnabb...

You can pull out the most concrete stats to prove a point, but in the world of football, once someone has decided their stance on a player, it rarely changes.

Carson made 2009 one of the most entertaining Seasons in recent history as a Bengal fan... thank you Brian Leonard hahaha

[*Nately120*]

(10-03-2015, 12:53 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Jumpin in here out of the blue. I think people like/dislike a QB for more emotional reasons whether they admit it or not.

There are statistics that show both guys are good QBs, but if they don't pass the 'eye test', then all logic is thrown out.

Both Dalton and Palmer have left some 'emotional scarring' on the fanbase which clouds their opinion of those players.

I mean, I get it.... I hear there are Eagles fans that dislike Donovan Mcnabb...

You can pull out the most concrete stats to prove a point, but in the world of football, once someone has decided their stance on a player, it rarely changes.

Carson made 2009 one of the most entertaining Seasons in recent history as a Bengal fan... thank you Brian Leonard hahaha

I certainly agree.  The funny-ish part is that I'm from Pittsburgh and I was born in 1981 and my father had been a huge Steelers fan since he was conscious of sports in the 50s.  But local people badmouthing Terry Bradshaw (even while he was winning Super Bowls) and cheering when he got injured and his career ended in 1983 turned him and his brothers into Steeler-haters which paved the way for my Bengal fandom in the 80s and onward.

The only reason I brought up his stats was because someone used his 2009 statline as evidence that my eyes did deceive me and Carson was NOT actually contributing to that winning season.  Apparently what I saw was a farce, because stats tell the whole story when people want them to, and then they are worthless and misleading when it's convenient too.  But like you said, minds aren't going to change around here, so to each his own.

[GreenCornBengal]

(10-03-2015, 12:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I certainly agree.  The funny-ish part is that I'm from Pittsburgh and I was born in 1981 and my father had been a huge Steelers fan since he was conscious of sports in the 50s.  But local people badmouthing Terry Bradshaw (even while he was winning Super Bowls) and cheering when he got injured and his career ended in 1983 turned him and his brothers into Steeler-haters which paved the way for my Bengal fandom in the 80s and onward.

The only reason I brought up his stats was because someone used his 2009 statline as evidence that my eyes did deceive me and Carson was NOT actually contributing to that winning season.  Apparently what I saw was a farce, because stats tell the whole story when people want them to, and then they are worthless and misleading when it's convenient too.  But like you said, minds aren't going to change around here, so to each his own.

I'm glad your dad and uncles had the resolve to leave the dark side

It's crazy how quickly football fans turn on their players. Remember last year Pats fans clamoring for Garappolo, my goodness!

As for your second paragraph about stats. Andy's first three seasons I didn't get to watch on TV, had to watch them on the computer. I thought Dalton was awesome! Then I would come on here and people would be trashing him for his play. I didn't understand. Once I began to watch every game every sunday, I saw the valid complaints that were being put out there. AKA, stats never tell the full story. I lost some confidence in him at the time, but he has won me back so far.