Stop comparing Joe Burrow to Dalton

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-03-2020, 03:12 PM)jj22 Wrote: I just don't get the Dalton hate now that he is out the door. We should be thanking him for his time here and moving on. Folks still kicking him as he leave. I mean really, what the guy do to folks? He's a great character guy, overachiever given his limitations and 2nd round pick. He's never done anything wrong around here to be hated this passionately by folks. I understand the frustration when he was playing but now that the season is over and he's likely gone, why haven't we circled the wagon around him and appreciated his time here as we move on? The hate is far too serious for a qb who ended up with a winning record with THIS franchise after 9 years. Sure he didn't win a playoff game. But for this franchise, 5 straight playoff appearances should get a QB a tip of the hat as they leave.

Yep, pretty much this.

Burrow is the best prospect for us at QB right now, and we happen to need a QB. I have been impressed with Burrow, especially Saturday night. I like his chances, but this shit show FO/staff better get started building up a line for him. If he's as good as advertised, we don't need him on IR.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:16 PM)depthchart Wrote: Fair enough.

I saw Trent Dilfer get interviewed by Colin Cowherd a few days ago.

Colin asked Trent who he would take between Tua Tagovailoa and Joe Burrow.

Dilfer said "I think Tua is the single best prospect I have ever studied". He also said that Tua was "so uniquely gifted in so many ways" and that he could be a generational talent.

Dilfer also said that Tua was "head and shoulders" better than Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert.

I also heard Dilfer say that Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields were more gifted prospects than Joe Burrow. Dilfer implied that he has first hand knowledge of these players.

Dilfer did say that Burrow's football IQ was beyond his years.

It will be interesting to see how NFL scouts view these prospects and how they might rate them compared to other recent prospects that have been successful.

Joe Burrow is getting a lot of Media attention right now but as you say the full Draft evaluation process is still ahead.

The Bengals picking Tua is my nightmare.

I agree he is possibly the most gifted QB in the draft this year, but he has had way too many injuries.  He missed last spring game with a broken wrist, has had two ankle surgeries in the last year, and is now recovering from a dislocated hip.

He will drop in the draft because of his injury history and some team will see him as a "bargain".  Sound familiar?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Same reason Drew Brees only made the playoffs twice in his first 8 seasons and then had three straight losing seasons from '14 to '16.

The QB who can win with no talent around him is a myth.

The QB who can still play well with less talent around him is not a myth. 

The QB who can't win with a very talented roster around him is not a myth either. His name is Andy Dalton. 

[jj22]

Oh good. Now we are back to having a very talented roster. I was confused there for a second after the last page. How that happened when they seem to *** up the picks is beyond me. What will page 10 bring.

The FO sucks again probably.

That's my guess.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:21 PM)Synric Wrote:  I implore you to expand the knowledge of the subject you post about regularly on a daily basis. 

Then expand my knowledge on why every year draft rankings change after the college season is over.  Why do teams interview prospects?  Why do they have the combine and individual workouts?  Why do they talk to the players' college coaches and review medical records? 

Why would NFL scouts be working over the next few months if everything is already decided?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:16 PM)jj22 Wrote: This attack on the FO sounded pretty cut and dry. Not very fluid.....

Two things.

1. Enough lists of bad draft picks have been posted here, i shouldn't need to rehash.

2. An average Bengals fan should be able to see that the coaching staffs of 2011-2015 were rich with talented guys...who are now gone, as well as the talent that was on the roster.

1+1=2

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The QB who can't win with a very talented roster around him is not a myth either. His name is Andy Dalton. 

The Andy Dalton who was 10-2 with three wins against playoff teams in 2015?

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 2. An average Bengals fan should be able to see that the coaching staffs of 2011-2015 were rich with talented guys...who are now gone, as well as the talent that was on the roster.

And that is all Dalton's fault?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Andy Dalton who was 10-2 with three wins against playoff teams in 2015?

You guys are too much.

Let me be more specific, since some brains have trouble processing more advanced thought patterns...

"The Cincinnati Bengals have not won a playoff game with Andy Dalton as the quarterback."

With that, i'm done with the circular BS. 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:31 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You guys are too much.

Let me be more specific, since some brains have trouble processing more advanced thought patterns...

"The Cincinnati Bengals have not won a playoff game with Andy Dalton as the quarterback."

With that, i'm done with the circular BS. 

You know what other Bengal QB had zero playoff wins in his first 9 seasons?

A guy name Ken Anderson.

Based on your logic it would be impossible for the Bengals to have won a playoff game with Anderson.

So much for your logic.

[depthchart]

(01-03-2020, 03:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals picking Tua is my nightmare.

I agree he is possibly the most gifted QB in the draft this year, but he has had way too many injuries.  He missed last spring game with a broken wrist, has had two ankle surgeries in the last year, and is now recovering from a dislocated hip.

He will drop in the draft because of his injury history and some team will see him as a "bargain".  Sound familiar?

I heard a Former NFL Doctor that I believe Clay Travis interviews each week about injuries on the Radio. The Doctor said that there is a good chance Tua could develop arthritis from his injuries which may shorten his career a bit and that he would inform teams of that potential risk as part of the Draft process.

Having Durable Stars is a must for the Bengals and this is partly why I am leaning in the Joe Burrow direction right now. I am also open to a possible Block Buster Trade Down in round one.

I am trying to stay open minded about who I would take over the coming months but who knows what Zac & The Family will have in mind.

[Fullrock]

(01-03-2020, 01:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Probably trade back and draft a different QB this year.  At this point it is hard to say who would be the best option.  The full draft evaluation has not even started.  People forget that at this time in 2013 Teddy Bridgewater was a top five pick.  In '15 Carson Wentz was a late-first early-second round prospect.  Same for Josh Allen in '17.

The trade value of a top 5 pick is generally grossly overvalued.  They often bring a shitload of picks in return yet over the last 20 years only about 1/3rd of the time has the best QB in the draft been selected in the top 5.  So we would have to look closely at what QB to target and how far top trade back.

Keep in mind that it takes two teams to trade.  Too often I hear fans say that if there is not a player available that we want at a certain pick that we should just trade back.  But sometimes that is impossible because there is not another team willing to give up decent value to trade up.

And I also may change my opinion on Burrows when the in-depth draft evaluation is complete.  But right now I am really concerned that he was never a good QB in 4 years and then became great over-night with a new coach and receivers.

Using Burrow's numbers last year as a baseline for good or bad, here is a list of NFL QB's who had 1 good college season or less:

Tom Brady - 0 good seasons
Ben Roethlisberger - 1 good season
Drew Brees - 0 good seasons
Russell Wilson - 1 good season
Phillip Rivers - 1 good season
Eli Manning - 1 good season
Matt Stafford - 1 good season
Matt Ryan - 0 good seasons

You can go back to look at guys like Joe Montana and Steve Young if you want to go back that far too.

I don't think the number of "good" seasons a QB has at the college level is a good predictor of NFL success, and in Burrow's case, he hasn't had just a good season, he has had the best season in the history of college football at the QB position. The best season of the guys listed above doe not even come close to the numbers Burrow has put up this season in the best conference in college football.

[Bengalholic]

For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year. Working in Brady's system, he has been able to showcase his skill set to the max, and develop those talents to an even greater level. 

Has Brady's system helped him and allowed him to flourish? Sure. Has the weapons around him helped elevate his play? No doubt. The thing is though, if you watch Joe this year, he makes the Tigers better as well. He also elevates the play of those around him. He gives his play makers opportunity after opportunity to shine. His performance when under pressure, or when forced to improvise, shouldn't be overlooked either. 

The kid has worked his ass off to get to this point and he has continued to develop and improve his talents. His calm, cool and collected style...along with the natural moxy and leadership he brings, makes him a very 'complete' QB in my opinion. He may not be the most talented overall, or the most naturally gifted...but when you account for everything he does offer, it definitely makes him 1st pick of the draft worthy.

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year.. Working in Brady's system, he has been able to showcase his skill set to the max, and develop those talents to an even greater level. 

Has Brady's system helped him and allowed him to flourish? Sure. Has the weapons around him helped elevate his play? No doubt. The thing is though, if you watch Joe this year, he makes the Tigers better as well. He also elevates the play of those around him. He gives his play makers opportunity after opportunity to shine. His performance when under pressure, or when forced to improvise, shouldn't be overlooked either. 

The kid has worked his ass off to get to this point and he has continued to develop and improve his talents. His calm, cool and collected style...along with the natural moxy and leadership he brings, makes him a very 'complete' QB in my opinion. He may not be the most talented overall, or the naturally gifted...but when you account for everything he does offer, it definitely makes him 1st pick of the draft worthy.

Great Post.

I could argue his Vision is naturally gifted trait. The kid sees everything it's like he has 5 sets of eyes.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-03-2020, 03:53 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Using Burrow's numbers last year as a baseline for good or bad, here is a list of NFL QB's who had 1 good college season or less:

Tom Brady - 0 good seasons
Ben Roethlisberger - 1 good season
Drew Brees - 0 good seasons
Russell Wilson - 1 good season
Phillip Rivers - 1 good season
Eli Manning - 1 good season
Matt Stafford - 1 good season
Matt Ryan - 0 good seasons

You can go back to look at guys like Joe Montana and Steve Young if you want to go back that far too.

I don't think the number of "good" seasons a QB has at the college level is a good predictor of NFL success, and in Burrow's case, he hasn't had just a good season, he has had the best season in the history of college football at the QB position. The best season of the guys listed above doe not even come close to the numbers Burrow has put up this season in the best conference in college football.

I agree with your premise, but Drew Brees WAS Purdue football. He finished 4th and 3rd in Hiesman voting, and owned multiple Big 10 and NCAA records. Some of which have just recently been broken. Brees was a very good college QB.

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2020, 04:02 PM)Synric Wrote: Great Post.

I could argue his Vision is naturally gifted trait. The kid sees everything it's like he has 5 sets of eyes.

His vision is tremendous. His ability to improvise, keep a play alive and stay cool under pressure is also pretty special, IMO.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year.. Working in Brady's system, he has been able to showcase his skill set to the max, and develop those talents to an even greater level. 

Has Brady's system helped him and allowed him to flourish? Sure. Has the weapons around him helped elevate his play? No doubt. The thing is though, if you watch Joe this year, he makes the Tigers better as well. He also elevates the play of those around him. He gives his play makers opportunity after opportunity to shine. His performance when under pressure, or when forced to improvise, shouldn't be overlooked either. 

The kid has worked his ass off to get to this point and he has continued to develop and improve his talents. His calm, cool and collected style...along with the natural moxy and leadership he brings, makes him a very 'complete' QB in my opinion. He may not be the most talented overall, or the naturally gifted...but when you account for everything he does offer, it definitely makes him 1st pick of the draft worthy.

Yeah, if you're taking the QB this year, I don't see how it's not Burrow. If not, get Young, suck next year, and get Lawrence or another top prospect. 

That's the only two options I see.

[depthchart]

(01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year.. Working in Brady's system, he has been able to showcase his skill set to the max, and develop those talents to an even greater level. 

Has Brady's system helped him and allowed him to flourish? Sure. Has the weapons around him helped elevate his play? No doubt. The thing is though, if you watch Joe this year, he makes the Tigers better as well. He also elevates the play of those around him. He gives his play makers opportunity after opportunity to shine. His performance when under pressure, or when forced to improvise, shouldn't be overlooked either. 

The kid has worked his ass off to get to this point and he has continued to develop and improve his talents. His calm, cool and collected style...along with the natural moxy and leadership he brings, makes him a very 'complete' QB in my opinion. He may not be the most talented overall, or the naturally gifted...but when you account for everything he does offer, it definitely makes him 1st pick of the draft worthy.

One thing that most people could likely agree on is that it may take a Special Talent at the QB position to elevate the Brown Family's Franchise.

Someone that can carry a team that has some holes in the Roster since the Brown Family seems hell bent on having holes.

My gut says that Joe Burrow will be coming to Cincinnati and hopefully he is Special enough to overcome the obstacles that will likely be here within the Organization to drag him down.

Burrow may have to carry the Bengal Brain trust on his back in order to get the Team to a Playoff win or better.

Be Special enough to Win in spite of them and their Front Office shortcomings.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-02-2020, 03:26 PM)Synric Wrote: Remember this year when he went 21 of 24 for 293 and 3 TDs against Florida. Remember when he went 31 of 39 for 393 and 3 TDs against Alabama?

Does anyone remember when the game where someone went  35/51, 68% completion, 2 TD, 0 Int, and over 400 yards. 

Do you know what game I'm referring to? If not it was Dalton's first game this season where a WIN should have happened but it didn't because the coaches FAILED and not the QB. The QB delivered a winning performance and he was rewarded with a loss. 

Dalton can play and play to a high level vs. good teams. Just like Burrow, Dalton plays bad as well. 

Burrow did great this year and had fantastic stats, but that doesn't mean it will translate to the NFL. 

I'm not sold on Burrow just yet. Not until I see him actually play at the NFL level in a game that matters. If the Bengals select him I will support the team still. But I'm not onboard with the Burrow pick because most QB drafted in the 1st round are bust or simply don't live up to where they were selected. 

I rather have extract picks to help fill the many holes on the team. 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:53 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Using Burrow's numbers last year as a baseline for good or bad, here is a list of NFL QB's who had 1 good college season or less:

Tom Brady - 0 good seasons
Ben Roethlisberger - 1 good season
Drew Brees - 0 good seasons
Russell Wilson - 1 good season
Phillip Rivers - 1 good season
Eli Manning - 1 good season
Matt Stafford - 1 good season
Matt Ryan - 0 good seasons

You can go back to look at guys like Joe Montana and Steve Young if you want to go back that far too.

I ahve no idea what you are talking about here.  Eli Manning had an incredible career and is still in the top 5 in many SEC passing catagories.

Drew Brees finished in the top 5 in Heisman voting twice yet you claim he never had a good year?