Will Marvin ever learn clock management

[Daddy-O]

(09-29-2015, 10:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or we could have gone into halftime with a 3 point lead.

And we didn't change anything after the first drive of the third quarter.  On our second drive we threw on first down but then could not convert on runs which is exactly what we had been doing all day.  How can you possibly say they "went away from what they had had success with" when they were doing exactly what they had done all game?

I knew this would be your response, it's the "play not to lose mentality".  Trust is a must or your games a bust.  

If you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.  Personally I'd like to change it up and see if we can end up with a different result at the end of the season.  True, this is one game and we still won, but an aggressive mindset goes a long way to building the internal confidence long term.   Trying at least tells the offense you trust them not to make a mistake.

I like Marvin but will not stick up for that mess before the half.  It was dreadful.  Even the announcers, supposed football minds, commented.

[XenoMorph]

(09-29-2015, 06:55 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Week 1 He used up all his timeouts like they were candy against Raiders.
week 2 and 3 His end of first half reasoning was just terrible with favorable field position . Yes we had a lead in both games but leaving potential points on the board is a recipe for disaster.

Week 1 get it right dont take the penalty...

Week 3 was bad but its see what we can get then decide after that first play.

We are never super aggressive right at the end of the half with the lead... Which helps avoids mistakes and a potential momentum swing.

[fredtoast]

(09-30-2015, 09:24 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I knew this would be your response, it's the "play not to lose mentality".  Trust is a must or your games a bust.  

If you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got.  Personally I'd like to change it up and see if we can end up with a different result at the end of the season.  True, this is one game and we still won, but an aggressive mindset goes a long way to building the internal confidence long term.   Trying at least tells the offense you trust them not to make a mistake.

I like Marvin but will not stick up for that mess before the half.  It was dreadful.  Even the announcers, supposed football minds, commented.

So what about the games where Marvin played loose with a lead and ended up losing the game like the Tampa Bay game in Palmers last season?

There is a good reason that every team in the league does not go into crazy desperation mode at the end of a half with a 14 point lead.

Marvin has been winning more than most other coaches in the league.  I think that is a good thing.  And I don't think going into "hurry up" mode at the end of a half will help us win playoff games.

[djs7685]

(09-30-2015, 10:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote:  And I don't think going into "hurry up" mode at the end of a half will help us win playoff games.

I don't know about that. This team should be looking to score as many points as possible in the first half of playoff games, because we all know that a Marvin Lewis led squad isn't going to do much of anything in the second half (other than turn the ball over and not score points, of course)

[XenoMorph]

(09-30-2015, 10:50 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't know about that. This team should be looking to score as many points as possible in the first half of playoff games, because we all know that a Marvin Lewis led squad isn't going to do much of anything in the second half (other than turn the ball over and not score points, of course)

Control the clock.... TOP and you have a good chance to win the game.

[Sabretooth]

To the OP, my " Magic 8 Ball " indicates no.

[djs7685]

(09-30-2015, 10:55 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Control the clock....  TOP and you have a good chance to win the game.

I know, my post was partially a joke. I just thought it was funny that Fred was sure that trying to score more points in a half wouldn't help us win a playoff game, but it very well could if you look at the history of Marvin Lewis being a HC in the playoffs.

In primetime and playoff games, Marvin led teams have done next to nothing in the second half of games. It's a very real trend and something that shouldn't be ignored. People will say "well how does a coach just flip a switch and coach worse during a certain time?!", and there doesn't seem to be a great answer to that, but there also doesn't seem to be a great answer to how it's NOT possible either, since it actually does happen. Meh, I'll be happy to see that change in 2015 but I'm still going to be holding my breath the first time we have a primetime game come up on the schedule.

[Guy Incognito]

(09-29-2015, 08:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Using time outs is not poor "clock management".  There are many good reasons to use a timeout other than to stop the clock in the final minute of a half.

2.  Deciding not to risk trying to score at the end of a half is not poor "clock management".  It is a tactical decision.

The only time I can really complain about poor clock management is when there is actually poor clock management.  Marvin may have been guilty of that a few times, but it is not a serious problem.  In fact I can not remember that last time it really hurt us.

Opening week vs. Bears in 2013.  We get the ball at our own 12 with 1:38, 1 TO, Bears have 1 TO as well.

1st and 10 (1:38) - rush for -4, let clock run down
Okay, at this point if you want to go in the half no prob.  Not very likely you can march 60+ yards in that time with one TO.  Bears are fine with that too and are not using their TO.

2nd and 14 (approx 1:04) - incomplete pass, clock stops
Why would you pass now after burning half a minute off the clock?

3rd and 14 (1:00) - short pass completion for 7 yards
So now you've decided to not go for it again, but take the risk of passing the ball and possibly stopping the clock?

Bears now take final TO since it is 4th down and the Bengals managed to stop the clock for them already.

Bears get punt on own 44 with 44 seconds left, proceed to march down the field and kick field goal.  

Bengals end up losing game by 3.

You can make a defensible argument to just run out the clock back on 1st down on your own 14.  You can make a defensible argument to try to get down the field for a score with 1 TO left.  You cannot make any defensible argument to run the ball on 1st down to bleed the clock, and then all of a sudden decide to start throwing it and go down the field when you're already in 2nd and long.  Absolutely impacted the game.

[Guy Incognito]

(09-30-2015, 10:50 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't know about that. This team should be looking to score as many points as possible in the first half of playoff games, because we all know that a Marvin Lewis led squad isn't going to do much of anything in the second half (other than turn the ball over and not score points, of course)

Yes.  It is ridiculous to take your foot off the throat of the other team in the NFL.  We could have absolutely broken the Ravens and made the 2nd half a laugher but instead just kind of folded up shop for a while after the non-TD call.  So instead we have to play a nail biter to the end.

[coachmcneil71]

(09-29-2015, 10:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The end of the first half was simply bad clock management. No two ways about it.

They got the ball with 33 seconds to go, and got to the 50 on that play with Gio. They had 2 timeouts at this point, but chose to let the clock run down to the 11 when they ran the next play in which case they used a timeout just after that incompletion with 6 seconds to go, leaving them with 1. At this point it didnt matter as the most important seconds to save were already spent, and they were still at the 50.

Absolutely correct. Couldn't agree more.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-30-2015, 10:23 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Week 1 get it right dont take the penalty...

Week 3 was bad but its see what we can get then decide after that first play.

We are never super aggressive right at the end of the half with the lead...  Which helps avoids mistakes and a potential momentum swing.

Then why do teams always seem to come out of the gate hot in the second half?

Because we don't put our foot down on their throats when we have a chance. 

We had a legit chance to have a huge lead into half vs Baltimore.
Bad call by the refs and then typical chicken shit Marvin stuff keeps it close. 

Sorry but this "prevents momentum swings" is bullshit. 
Nothing gives an opposing team more momentum than the other team giving up and saying, okay, you guys get a break now. We're letting up. 

[djs7685]

(09-30-2015, 02:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Then why do teams always seem to come out of the gate hot in the second half?

Because we don't put our foot down on their throats when we have a chance. 

We had a legit chance to have a huge lead into half vs Baltimore.
Bad call by the refs and then typical chicken shit Marvin stuff keeps it close. 

Sorry but this "prevents momentum swings" is bullshit. 
Nothing gives an opposing team more momentum than the other team giving up and saying, okay, you guys get a break now. We're letting up. 

If we're playing very well against a team for an entire half of football, what makes people think that all of a sudden before the end of the half we're going to start handing the ball over and stopping the momentum?

People are clinging to that to defend Marvin as if it makes any sense at all. I haven't had much of an issue with ol' Marv so far this season, but this one was clearly a mistake on his part. There's no shame to admit that while he has been calling solid games, this specific instance wasn't his brightest moment.

[3wt]

(09-30-2015, 02:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Then why do teams always seem to come out of the gate hot in the second half?

Because we don't put our foot down on their throats when we have a chance. 

We had a legit chance to have a huge lead into half vs Baltimore.
Bad call by the refs and then typical chicken shit Marvin stuff keeps it close. 

Sorry but this "prevents momentum swings" is bullshit. 
Nothing gives an opposing team more momentum than the other team giving up and saying, okay, you guys get a break now. We're letting up. 

Agree with you on this.   The psychological part of the game is big.   I remember a game in Pittsburgh where the Bengals were ahead, but a field goal wins the game.  With almost no time on the clock the Steelers punch the ball in for  a touchdown.

After the game Bradshaw told the press that they wanted to make sure Cincinnati knew who the better team was.  They were not going to settle for the easy win.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-30-2015, 02:53 PM)djs7685 Wrote: If we're playing very well against a team for an entire half of football, what makes people think that all of a sudden before the end of the half we're going to start handing the ball over and stopping the momentum?

People are clinging to that to defend Marvin as if it makes any sense at all. I haven't had much of an issue with ol' Marv so far this season, but this one was clearly a mistake on his part. There's no shame to admit that while he has been calling solid games, this specific instance wasn't his brightest moment.

Marv said it could happen.
Or it happens once out of every 10 times it's tried.
Therefore to them, it happens a bunch.

[CageTheBengal]

There have been games he's shown he knows how to manage the clock. The thing is people don't make threads about those occasions.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-30-2015, 02:56 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: There have been games he's shown he knows how to manage the clock. The thing is people don't make threads about those occasions.

Because those should be the standard. 
That should be expected.

It isn't like the NFL randomly changes clock times and limits. He doesn't have to worry about something different. The rules and situations are almost always the same. 

He just goes full moron at times and it hurts the team. It's a hindrance. 

[djs7685]

(09-30-2015, 02:56 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: There have been games he's shown he knows how to manage the clock. The thing is people don't make threads about those occasions.

This is true, but that's just how message boards go.

Our best players/coaches are the ones that don't get talked about very much outside of the occasional appreciation thread.

When someone screws up, it's going to get dissected and, in most cases, blown out of proportion by a part of the fanbase and then brushed off by another part of the fanbase.

[Guy Incognito]

(09-30-2015, 02:56 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: There have been games he's shown he knows how to manage the clock. The thing is people don't make threads about those occasions.

That's true, however this is one of those things he should be doing right an overwhelmingly high % of the time since it is a pretty easy thing to learn.  It is the same way how we don't make threads about a well executed handoff to the running back, but sure as well do once they go wrong and result in a fumble.

[Ricky Spanish]

Why the hell do you wait until the clock to get down to 11 seconds, then take a timeout, then run the ball?

Marvin us terrible at this and I am still angry they didn't try to score at the half against Baltimore

[McC]

(09-30-2015, 02:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Then why do teams always seem to come out of the gate hot in the second half?

Because we don't put our foot down on their throats when we have a chance. 

We had a legit chance to have a huge lead into half vs Baltimore.
Bad call by the refs and then typical chicken shit Marvin stuff keeps it close. 

Sorry but this "prevents momentum swings" is bullshit. 
Nothing gives an opposing team more momentum than the other team giving up and saying, okay, you guys get a break now. We're letting up. 

My best guess would be because we don't. 

Add those 3 we didn't get on 4th down and the fourth quarter has a different feel, no?

Add the other 3 or even 7 we chose not to pursue right before halftime and it feels a lot different.

Two things Marvin is prone to do that are no no's--take a timeout or two into the locker room at the half when you could have used it or them to go after points before halftime and play the end of the first half with no timeouts because a couple of them were used in the first qrtr.