Why not keep Andy as a backup?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 10:36 AM)Shouldamapads Wrote: This argument is bad and you're likely wrong to an extent.  Right now Andy is much better prepared and better than Joe for NFL play.  The better argument is sitting Joe isn't going to get him past that level.  Joe shows that he can quickly come up to speed with his intelligence and commitment to football learning.  

Andy was amazing when protected.  One could argue that he was not protected well in the last few years.  When the line improved towards the end of the season we won games and were in games with close finishes.  Our defense did not hold their end of the bargain.  The D gave up 27,34,38 and 23 the last 4 games of the season.  The team won one game (23).

That said, it's time to part.  Keeping Andy is not the future as his replacement has been drafted.

I can't see how he won't be cut and the money used elsewhere.  If I remember, the cap is about 750K over with rookies factored in.  Yes, the team could cut someone to cover that, but the reality is Andy's salary is holding up more than that.  If Mixon gets his wish for a renegotiation, the lineman we need/desire is avail, etc.  I'd love to see Peters here for a few years.

I am one of those that really likes/liked Andy as a Bengal.  I wish him the very best, but the team will need to move on. He'll always be one of my favorites as he's a good player, but an even better person.  Him and his wife and family deserve the very best and i hope that opportunity presents itself.

“Amazing” is quite generous wrt Dalton. He had 1 partial season out of 9 that he was above average.

And the OL being a weakness is all the more reason Burrow is the better choice. One of his biggest strengths is extending plays, and making things happen off script.

[Shouldamapads]

(04-29-2020, 10:43 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “Amazing” is quite generous wrt Dalton. He had 1 partial season out of 9 that he was above average.

And the OL being a weakness is all the more reason Burrow is the better choice. One of his biggest strengths is extending plays, and making things happen off script.

Andy, before hurt just a few years back was leading the league in passer rating.    He was nothing short of amazing.  That, unfortunately, was the peak for him as it's not been the same since.

A weak line is not going to make Burrow a better choice. The game speed in the NFL is much faster.  The last thing the team needs is any QB running for his life.  That's how injuries happen.  Andy needs to be released and the line needs to be improved.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 11:05 AM)Shouldamapads Wrote: Andy, before hurt just a few years back was leading the league in passer rating.    He was nothing short of amazing.  That, unfortunately, was the peak for him as it's not been the same since.

A weak line is not going to make Burrow a better choice. The game speed in the NFL is much faster.  The last thing the team needs is any QB running for his life.  That's how injuries happen.  Andy needs to be released and the line needs to be improved.  

Right...I literally mentioned 2015. It was obviously an outlier though.

Yes it does make Burrow the better option. Dalton’s pocket presence is terrible, and his inability to extend plays kills drives. We need a QB like Burrow who can make something happen while scrambling, not throw it out of bounds 9 times out of 10. Ofc the speed of the NFL will be an adjustment, but he played in the SEC against the best competition in the country (and Clemson), so that’s a good start.

[*bfine32*]

(04-29-2020, 10:38 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Taysom Hill brings a hell of a lot more to his team than just holding a clipboard. They incorporate him all over their offense.

He sure does and NO realizes that. Now if some folks would just realize that Andy would do more for the team and the development of Joe Burrow than just hold a clipboard maybe they'd begin to see the fallacy in their stance. 

[Shouldamapads]

(04-29-2020, 11:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Right...I literally mentioned 2015. It was obviously an outlier though.

Yes it does make Burrow the better option. Dalton’s pocket presence is terrible, and his inability to extend plays kills drives. We need a QB like Burrow who can make something happen while scrambling, not throw it out of bounds 9 times out of 10. Ofc the speed of the NFL will be an adjustment, but he played in the SEC against the best competition in the country (and Clemson), so that’s a good start.

Again, fix the line.  Just because we believe Burrow has a better pocket presence and scrambling ability doesn't mean we should bank on it.  We didn't draft Tua, so protect the guy.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(04-27-2020, 12:41 AM)JSR18 Wrote:  I'll ask again, because the 1st time it apparently got missed.
                What is it that Joe Burrow is lacking in that you think Dalton will be able to help with??

(04-29-2020, 12:03 PM)Shouldamapads Wrote: Again, fix the line.  Just because we believe Burrow has a better pocket presence and scrambling ability doesn't mean we should bank on it.  We didn't draft Tua, so protect the guy.

...and don't forget run blocking hasn't been good in Cincinnati of late.  Keeping a quarterback upright while passing is only half of an offensive line's job.

[McC]

(04-29-2020, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: He sure does and NO realizes that. Now if some folks would just realize that Andy would do more for the team and the development of Joe Burrow than just hold a clipboard maybe they'd begin to see the fallacy in their stance. 

Such as?

Is he gonna run the ball or catch passes?

Aside from wasting 18 million of cap space, that is?

Any veteran backup QB can give you all these supposed benefits for five million.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Andy looks like a borderline probowler with a healthy AJ Green. No AJ the good games are very sporadic and quite a few awful ones. I always thought of Dalton as a poor mans Brady. thought he was perfect fit for Pats guess they are not interested. is 17 million high for someone who may not play? a little not much available past Cam in free agency though

[*bfine32*]

(04-29-2020, 12:57 PM)McC Wrote: Such as?

Is he gonna run the ball or catch passes?

Aside from wasting 18 million of cap space, that is?

Any veteran backup QB can give you all these supposed benefits for five million.

Which veteran can give Joe things he's seen on the field against our AFC North foes you know the guys we play 6 times a year and battle for the division title. He was pretty successful against them with the exception of Pitt and that was more because of his performance on the field. He can be in Joe's ear on the sidelines of those games telling him what he saw and adjustments he's seen from his POV.

What price do you put on that and what other QB can do that?  I don't know if you really point see the point or just refuse to see the point; however, either way, it has grown stale. 

[Shake n Blake]

(04-27-2020, 06:07 PM)McC Wrote: Well, they've got a little over 7 mil of cap space right now without any of the rookies signed.  I seem to remember 11 mil is about what it costs for rookies.  How is it possible to wait until TC to do anything about Dalton?

Holding onto Dalton at this point seems like the opposite of doing right by him to me.

Good point and I really wasn't even considering our cap situation. Not sure why the pro-keep Andy crowd isn't acknowledging this.

(04-29-2020, 10:43 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “Amazing” is quite generous wrt Dalton. He had 1 partial season out of 9 that he was above average.

And the OL being a weakness is all the more reason Burrow is the better choice. One of his biggest strengths is extending plays, and making things happen off script.

This simply isn't true. Even if you go off of passer rating alone. Then if you consider other things such as wins, TD's and yards, then it's definitely not true. It's fine to bash Andy for the last few years. He did not respond well to having a bad o-line. That said, his run from 2011-2016 was overall "above average".

2011: Had one of the better rookie seasons ever, especially considering the lockout.
2012: 13th out of 32 qualifiers in rating, 31 total TD's.
2013: 15th out of 37 qualifiers in rating, 35 total TD's.
2015: 2nd out of 35 qualifiers in rating, 28 total TD's in 12 starts.
2016: 15th out of 30 qualifiers in rating, 22 total TD's.

Even if you just look at passer rating alone, he had 4 seasons that were above average, and that's not counting his rookie season, which was pretty fantastic. Burrow's my guy and I want Dalton gone, but I can still appreciate what Dalton was able to accomplish in the first half of his career.

This does not mean in any way/shape/form that we should keep him. As a mentor or "competition" or any other reason. It's time to move on.

[JSR18]

(04-28-2020, 11:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Burrow alone will make more than that.

If they are 7. something under the cap as reported. And 11. something is what is needed for draft picks, 4-5 million will cover that....

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[McC]

(04-29-2020, 01:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Which veteran can give Joe things he's seen on the field against our AFC North foes you know the guys we play 6 times a year and battle for the division title. He was pretty successful against them with the exception of Pitt and that was more because of his performance on the field. He can be in Joe's ear on the sidelines of those games telling him what he saw and adjustments he's seen from his POV.

What price do you put on that and what other QB can do that?  I don't know if you really point see the point or just refuse to see the point; however, either way, it has grown stale. 

I put about 5 mil a year on that and any veteran backup QB can do that.  It is such  small thing that it will never be worth 18 million dollars.

As to being specific to our division(another of your multitude of reaches), I'm pretty sure there is a thing called game film.

I don't refuse to see the point.  I see the point and dismiss it as just plain wrong.

I understand that you've painted yourself into a corner on this.  Face it, it's time to just walk across the wet paint and go out the door.  You've come at it from up down and sideways and none of it is really holding water.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 01:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Good point and I really wasn't even considering our cap situation. Not sure why the pro-keep Andy crowd isn't acknowledging this.


This simply isn't true. Even if you go off of passer rating alone. Then if you consider other things such as wins, TD's and yards, then it's definitely not true. It's fine to bash Andy for the last few years. He did not respond well to having a bad o-line. That said, his run from 2011-2016 was overall "above average".

2011: Had one of the better rookie seasons ever, especially considering the lockout.
2012: 13th out of 32 qualifiers in rating, 31 total TD's.
2013: 15th out of 37 qualifiers in rating, 35 total TD's.
2015: 2nd out of 35 qualifiers in rating, 28 total TD's in 12 starts.
2016: 15th out of 30 qualifiers in rating, 22 total TD's.

Even if you just look at passer rating alone, he had 4 seasons that were above average, and that's not counting his rookie season, which was pretty fantastic. Burrow's my guy and I want Dalton gone, but I can still appreciate what Dalton was able to accomplish in the first half of his career.

This does not mean in any way/shape/form that we should keep him. As a mentor or "competition" or any other reason. It's time to move on.

When I look at those numbers I only see one clearly above average season. Is 13th-15th technically above average? I guess, but it’s still middle of the pack which was my point.

His ratings by season:

2011: 80.4
2012: 87.4
2013: 88.8
2014: 83.5
2015: 106.3
2016: 91.8
2017: 86.6
2018: 89.6
2019: 78.3

Again, I really only see one standout year in there.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: He sure does and NO realizes that. Now if some folks would just realize that Andy would do more for the team and the development of Joe Burrow than just hold a clipboard maybe they'd begin to see the fallacy in their stance. 

When we start lining Andy up in the slot to catch passes or design specific plays around him you’ll have a point. Then we can talk about him being worth 10+ million dollars a season. Until then his QB whisperer skills don’t even come close.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-29-2020, 07:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: When I look at those numbers I only see one clearly above average season. Is 13th-15th technically above average? I guess, but it’s still middle of the pack which was my point.

His ratings by season:

2011: 80.4
2012: 87.4
2013: 88.8
2014: 83.5
2015: 106.3
2016: 91.8
2017: 86.6
2018: 89.6
2019: 78.3

Again, I really only see one standout year in there.

31 and 35 TD's isn't above average to you?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 07:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 31 and 35 TD's isn't above average to you?

Yes, but I meant overall. Winston threw 33 TD’s last season but we all know the rest...

Now I’m not saying Andy was ever bad like that (although he did throw 20 INT’s one year). I agree he was a pretty good QB for us for a handful of years, but I’d say he was just that, good, never great, except for that one year.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-29-2020, 08:01 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, but I meant overall. Winston threw 33 TD’s last season but we all know the rest...

Now I’m not saying Andy was ever bad like that (although he did throw 20 INT’s one year). I agree he was a pretty good QB for us for a handful of years, but I’d say he was just that, good, never great, except for that one year.

Also, I think you made a mistake, Dalton’s career high in TD’s was 33.

I'm talking overall as well. Yeah, 20 INT's, but still. 4300 yards and 35 total TD's (he ran for two), setting franchise records for both categories, winning player of the month for October while leading your team to 11 wins would be considered easily an above average season for most.

Now if you're just saying Dalton was only elite for 1 year, then I agree. He was above average for several though, in my estimation. 2012 was another above average/good (we get hung up on semantics on here) season as well, IMO. 27 passing TD's, 4 rushing, rating ranked 13th, 10 wins.

Other than that, it was a pretty big ball of meh, for various reasons, which include the fact that Dalton was not an elite talent.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 08:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm talking overall as well. Yeah, 20 INT's, but still. 4300 yards and 35 total TD's (he ran for two), setting franchise records for both categories, winning player of the month for October while leading your team to 11 wins would be considered easily an above average season for most.

Now if you're just saying Dalton was only elite for 1 year, then I agree. He was above average for several though, in my estimation. 2012 was another above average/good (we get hung up on semantics on here) season as well, IMO. 27 passing TD's, 4 rushing, rating ranked 13th, 10 wins.

Other than that, it was a pretty big ball of meh, for various reasons, which include the fact that Dalton was not an elite talent.

We do, I was just getting on TLL for this in another thread, so I’ll concede on this one.

[McC]

This is just a guess but I think if Andy had been on the open market, he might have had a real shot at the NO job that Winston just got. This is why holding onto him still is doing him wrong.

[*bfine32*]

(04-29-2020, 10:39 PM)McC Wrote: This is just a guess but I think if Andy had been on the open market, he might have had a real shot at the NO job that Winston just got.  This is why holding onto him still is doing him wrong.

Paul Dehner...is that you?