Interview with Duke

[Hoofhearted]

(01-21-2020, 04:25 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Because you are just remembering the bad picks. And you can count Fisher, but if he hadn't suffered the heart issue, who knows what he would have been.

2019 picks are still to see how they work out, but there are several promising players.

2018- Jessie Bates, Sam Hubbard, Andrew Brown, Auden Tate.

2017- Mixon, Carl Lawson, Ryan Glasgow and everyone's favorite Jake Elliott (he was drafted, so for this conversation he counts)

2016- William Jackson III, Tyler Boyd, Andrew Billings, Clayton Fedj.

2015- admittedly, outside of Uzomah, this draft was a stinker.

So, like I said, the draft is a crapshoot, but don't act like we never draft any good players

More that we haven't gotten much out of our "first round talent" than we should have. We nail a few of those and we're looking a lot better. Even WJ3 has regressed. They seem to be more consistent in the later rounds, which is just odd. How they can scout player like Tate, Uzomah and Fej... but whiff on Ced, Price and Ross.

yeah, 2015 was just plain awful

[BengalChris]

(01-21-2020, 02:32 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Maybe he feels guilty and thinks the coaching staff did ok dealing with the shitty roster he’s built over the last few season lol. Not saying I was impressed with the coaching but I’m willing to give them more than a year and place way more blame on Tobin.

I will agree that the draft has left a lot to be desired the last few years, but the roster is far from shitty though. There are some holes, like OL and LB, but the DL is good and deep, the secondary has quality, RB is good, TE is well stocked, WR has depth issues.

I look at how little this coaching staff got from some quality players. The secondary has far more talent than how they played under this staff. The same is true for TEs and the DL. And look at how long it took them to figure out they had Mixon on the roster. The usage of the players is the coaching staff's job and they didn't make much use of these guys. Marv got a lot more out of these guys than Taylor did.

From what I see it will take Burrow just taking over the team and willing it to victory to make this coaching staff look good and maybe he'll do that and the coaches will look smart. We'll have to see. it was Payton Manning who took Indy and later the Denver to the SB, it wasn't Tony Dungy or John Fox that made that happen.

 

[BengalChris]

(01-21-2020, 03:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Uhm while I can agree about the OL misses.. Not selecting a QB when we had one was not a blunder. Ross maybe so, but who knows who made the call on that pick.

It's been well published that Marv didn't want Ross and Tobin did, and Mike Brown was the tie breaker.

 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-21-2020, 04:25 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Because you are just remembering the bad picks. And you can count Fisher, but if he hadn't suffered the heart issue, who knows what he would have been.

2019 picks are still to see how they work out, but there are several promising players.

2018- Jessie Bates, Sam Hubbard, Andrew Brown, Auden Tate.

2017- Mixon, Carl Lawson, Ryan Glasgow and everyone's favorite Jake Elliott (he was drafted, so for this conversation he counts)

2016- William Jackson III, Tyler Boyd, Andrew Billings, Clayton Fedj.

2015- admittedly, outside of Uzomah, this draft was a stinker.

So, like I said, the draft is a crapshoot, but don't act like we never draft any good players

Obviously PFF isn't gospel, and it doesn't mean everything, but I decided to make this list out of curiosity.

2019 PFF Grades
Bates: 59.7
Hubbard: 67.1
Brown: 59.5
Tate: 70.5
Mixon: 75.3
Lawson: 55.5
Glasgow: 58.0
Elliott: (I can't see his 2019 grade without a subscription.)
Jackson: 53.7
Boyd: 73.0
Billings: 69.3
Fejedelem: 65.5
Uzomah: 49.4

Once again, not gospel or fact... but it more or less tracks with the eye test that most of the "good players" you listed are pretty mediocre/bad.

[uticabengalfan]

Let Marvin pick them and then stay away after that

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-21-2020, 04:52 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I will agree that the draft has left a lot to be desired the last few years, but the roster is far from shitty though. There are some holes, like OL and LB, but the DL is good and deep, the secondary has quality, RB is good, TE is well stocked, WR has depth issues.

I look at how little this coaching staff got from some quality players. The secondary has far more talent than how they played under this staff. The same is true for TEs and the DL. And look at how long it took them to figure out they had Mixon on the roster. The usage of the players is the coaching staff's job and they didn't make much use of these guys. Marv got a lot more out of these guys than Taylor did.

From what I see it will take Burrow just taking over the team and willing it to victory to make this coaching staff look good and maybe he'll do that and the coaches will look smart. We'll have to see. it was Payton Manning who took Indy and later the Denver to the SB, it wasn't Tony Dungy or John Fox that made that happen.

 

Funny how our very good CB corps, that has been a strength on Defense since 2007 (arguable on 2010, as they were RAVAGED with injuries), has been horrid for the past 2 years.

I wonder what position coach came in and completely f'd them up...

You know, the coach that has been canned and replaced with someone with a better track record?

[fredtoast]

(01-21-2020, 05:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Obviously PFF isn't gospel, and it doesn't mean everything, but I decided to make this list out of curiosity.

2019 PFF Grades
Bates: 59.7
Hubbard: 67.1
Brown: 59.5
Tate: 70.5
Mixon: 75.3
Lawson: 55.5
Glasgow: 58.0
Elliott: (I can't see his 2019 grade without a subscription.)
Jackson: 53.7
Boyd: 73.0
Billings: 69.3
Fejedelem: 65.5
Uzomah: 49.4

Once again, not gospel or fact... but it more or less tracks with the eye test that most of the "good players" you listed are pretty mediocre/bad.

PFF, and your eyes, are a joke.  They both have the same problem.  They form subjective opinions, and when the Bengals are losing they say all the players are "mediocre/bad"

In 2019 Sam Hubbard led the NFL in tackles by a DE and was top 10 in sacks.  Guess you must have had your eyes closed a lot when he was on the field.

[804 fan]

(01-21-2020, 03:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Uhm while I can agree about the OL misses.. Not selecting a QB when we had one was not a blunder. Ross maybe so, but who knows who made the call on that pick.

To be fair no one was pulling for Mahomes to be drafted here instead of Ross it was mostly Rueben Foster from Alabama. While Ross has been injured and dropped too many passes he clearly has show he is capable of big plays if used correctly. I think he should move around to the slot as well in some formations to use his elusiveness. I understand some people dont like him not being available for every game but i dont understand the hate for the guy when Corey Davis from the Titans was picked before him and has not lit the world on fire and has not had that big of an impact but people in Tennessee are not waking up every day to find a way to talk about himin every post. I just want the players that do draft to be coached up to the best player that they can be and stay healthy. Is more alarming that Price cant win a starting spot under two different regimes at two different positions. Just my opinion and hope we take Burrow 1st and a right tackle in the 2nd with Dye lb from Oregon in the 3rd and the staff can coach them up.

[impactplaya]

(01-21-2020, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF, and your eyes, are a joke.  They both have the same problem.  They form subjective opinions, and when the Bengals are losing they say all the players are "mediocre/bad"

In 2019 Sam Hubbard led the NFL in tackles by a DE and was top 10 in sacks.  Guess you must have had your eyes closed a lot when he was on the field.

Did he lead DEs in tackles because the defense was on the field 
Alot ? Or because the defense couldn't get 3rd down stops 
Thus the offense was able to control the ball at will.
I do recall the Bengals offense be unable to average 20 pts a game last year. 
Hubbard is a darn good player. But he's not a top 5 DE by any means.but I expect him to be even better in 2020. 

[fredtoast]

(01-21-2020, 05:28 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Did he lead DEs in tackles because the defense was on the field 
Alot ? 

No.  Not at all.  12 other defenses faced more plays than the Bengals.  The league average was 1016 and the Bengals faced 1034

(01-21-2020, 05:28 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Hubbard is a darn good player. But he's not a top 5 DE by any means.but I expect him to be even better in 2020. 

Never said he was "top 5".  Just pointing out that he is far from "mediocre/bad" like some people are trying to claim.

[fortyyearfan]

(01-21-2020, 11:51 AM)lone bengal Wrote: People made a big deal when Tobin said the Bengals are open to all options at pick one including trades. I think Tobin was just using standard GM talk and getting out the message that he will check out all options. Tobin needs to be on the hot seat we have had way to many misses for a team that builds through the draft. Multiple O-line misses in Ced, Fisher and Price. He hasn’t been able to draft a linebacker or sign a decent one in forever. They need to take a serious look at how they evaluate linebackers. Drafting Ross over Mahomes and Watson was another huge blunder.

Duke Tobin should just go away and hang out at Mcdonalds.Dude is a waste and I do not care for him.He also looks horrible,please shave all that crap off your face or learn how to grow it so it looks decent.You look like you been up all night and your style of clothes is horrible.Dress like a stud and wear some sunglasses.And please draft Joe Burrow.This opportunity ONLY COMES AROUND ONCE. Do not screw this up.He is by far the only pick we should take.He is a winner and for goodness sake,he lives in southern Ohio,this is a no brainer.If this goofy scouting team screws this up,the long suffering diehard fans will NEVER FORGIVE ANY OF YOU.Please,can we get some class that shows up on the screen.I mean you are in charge of the draft for an NFL TEAM.please clean up your act.You look like a homeless guy.I mean really :paul: :paul: :paul: :paul:

[lone bengal]

(01-21-2020, 04:52 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I will agree that the draft has left a lot to be desired the last few years, but the roster is far from shitty though. There are some holes, like OL and LB, but the DL is good and deep, the secondary has quality, RB is good, TE is well stocked, WR has depth issues.

I look at how little this coaching staff got from some quality players. The secondary has far more talent than how they played under this staff. The same is true for TEs and the DL. And look at how long it took them to figure out they had Mixon on the roster. The usage of the players is the coaching staff's job and they didn't make much use of these guys. Marv got a lot more out of these guys than Taylor did.

From what I see it will take Burrow just taking over the team and willing it to victory to make this coaching staff look good and maybe he'll do that and the coaches will look smart. We'll have to see. it was Payton Manning who took Indy and later the Denver to the SB, it wasn't Tony Dungy or John Fox that made that happen.

 

I'll admit I wasn't at all impressed with the creativity on offense and Taylor made some head scratching calls. The inability to run the ball with Mixon early in the season was puzzling. We were on pace to be historically bad and I thought that Mixon would excel in Taylor's system.  My guess is maybe the line was adjusting to a new scheme as well as a new O-line coach. The O-line outside of Hopkins was a mess for the most part. Starting John Jerry or Andre Smith isn't ideal.  The defense as a whole was terrible in Marvin's last two seasons ranking at the bottom of the league. The free agent signings of B.W. Webb, Wynn and John Miller did little to improve the team

[Wes Mantooth]

(01-21-2020, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF, and your eyes, are a joke.  They both have the same problem.  They form subjective opinions

Clearly, you have very little knowledge as to which you speak. If anything is a joke it's this take.

PFF is an analytics company and grading system. There is nothing "subjective" about it. And every single team in the NFL uses them and contracts their service. A lot of the teams have incorporated it on a very large scale.

Now if you want to say there's things to be learned outside from what the numbers tell you, fine. I agree. And I personally find analytics to be boring. But at this point you're arguing what you just admonished; using your eyes.

PFF, like them or not, are not at all a joke. And analytics is not a subjective science. If anything, its use prevents the over-reliance on subjective opinions. It's nothing more than a numbers game, which removes most, if not all, bias.

[fredtoast]

(01-21-2020, 05:52 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Clearly, you have very little knowledge as to which you speak. If anything is a joke it's this take.

PFF is an analytics company and grading system. There is nothing "subjective" about it. And every single team in the NFL uses them and contracts their service. A lot of the teams have incorporated it on a very large scale.

Now if you want to say there's things to be learned outside from what the numbers tell you, fine. I agree. And I personally find analytics to be boring. But at this point you're arguing what you just admonished; using your eyes.

PFF, like them or not, are not at all a joke. And analytics is not a subjective science. If anything, its use prevents the over-reliance on subjective opinions. It's nothing more than a numbers game, which removes most, if not all, bias.

PFF individual player ratings are 100% based on subjective grading.  Look it up.

PFF keeps track of some stats that can be very helpful, but I guarantee that no team relies on their individual player ratings.  For example PFF said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than his amazing 2015 season.  And this year they claim Auden Tate was a better player than Sam Hubbard who led all DEs in tackles and was top 10 in sacks.

[lone bengal]

(01-21-2020, 06:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF individual player ratings are 100% based on subjective grading.  Look it up.

PFF keeps track of some stats that can be very helpful, but I guarantee that no team relies on their individual player ratings.  For example PFF said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than his amazing 2015 season.  And this year they claim Auden Tate was a better player than Sam Hubbard who led all DEs in tackles and was top 10 in sacks.

I agree Hubbard plays way better than his rating and I agree that PFF isn't always right. I think the main point of the OP was that for a team that relies so heavy on the draft the amount of high impact players is low. Some of the names listed don't make up for Tobin's misses. Like naming a kicker we cut as a good draft pick  When you miss in early rounds you need later round players to step up and have more of an impact to make up for an overall lack of talent on the roster, considering we don't use free agency.  Boyd, Hubbard and Mixon play above average and are some of the few young building blocks we have. Guys like Uzomah, Glasgow, Brown, Tate , Fej ect. are backup/ end of the roster players and I think we can all agree we don't need PFF to tell us that. 

[Sled21]

(01-21-2020, 04:41 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: More that we haven't gotten much out of our "first round talent" than we should have. We nail a few of those and we're looking a lot better. Even WJ3 has regressed. They seem to be more consistent in the later rounds, which is just odd. How they can scout player like Tate, Uzomah and Fej... but whiff on Ced, Price and Ross.

yeah, 2015 was just plain awful

To be fair, you have to look at the 1st rounders that failed, and see if the Bengals picking them was an outlier, or if other teams had them ranked as high. John Ross was going to be a 1st rounder, regardless of if we picked him. So were Ced and Price. The fact they didn't pan out is just life in the NFL and the crapshoot of the draft. Some want to make it seem like we were the only team that would be stupid enough to draft these players. Every team has 1st and 2nd rounders that don't pan out. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-21-2020, 06:47 PM)Sled21 Wrote: To be fair, you have to look at the 1st rounders that failed, and see if the Bengals picking them was an outlier, or if other teams had them ranked as high. John Ross was going to be a 1st rounder, regardless of if we picked him. So were Ced and Price. The fact they didn't pan out is just life in the NFL and the crapshoot of the draft. Some want to make it seem like we were the only team that would be stupid enough to draft these players. Every team has 1st and 2nd rounders that don't pan out. 

I remember the Patriots about half a decade ago cutting their first round OT after only a couple years.

You are correct, everyone screws up Draft picks, no matter where they are drafted. We still don't know if Ross or Price will improve
if they can stay healthy. That is their biggest problem and it was when they were drafted. Big dang reason why I don't want us to 
trade back and take Tua who is the 2nd best QB in this draft, doesn't matter how good he was when healthy, he is hurt, draft Joe
Burrow and everything will at least be better for awhile even if Burrow isn't great right off the bat.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'm not sure how you can say that when in the past few years we have drafted guys like Joe Mixon, Sam Hubbard, Tyler Boyd, Billings, etc. No one hits on every player....

Here's how - last 5 drafts

2015
1. 21 C. Ogbuehi - fail gone from team
2. 53 J. Fisher - fail gone from team
3A. 85 T. Kroft - gone
3B. 99 - P. Dawson - fail, not even in NFL

2016
1. 24 W. Jackson III - has been average at best lately, will that change ?
*2. 55 T. Boyd - very good
3. 87 N. Vigil - average probably at best, some would say not even that

2017
1. 9 J. Ross - for a top ten pick his production/availibility has been much lower than that, thus far pretty much a fail.
*2. 48 J. Mixon - very good
3. 73 J. Willis - fail, gone

2018
1. 21 B. Price - pretty much fail up to now, will it change ?
2. 54 J. Bates - average player
*3A 77 S. Hubbard - very good
3B 78 M. Jefferson - fail 

2019
1. 11 J. Williams - hasn't played a snap yet
2. 52 D. Sample - limited snaps then went on IR what 5th game ?
3. 72 J. Pratt - came on a bit late but jury is still out

That's three players above average out of 17 chances in the first three rounds in the last 5 drafts. Are there players that could still turn out ? Sure

But what matters are results, and the results have been bad no matter how you spin it. For a team that relies so heavily on the draft the success rate has to be twice what it has been.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-21-2020, 10:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's how - last 5 drafts

2015
1. 21 C. Ogbuehi - fail gone from team
2. 53 J. Fisher - fail gone from team
3A. 85 T. Kroft - gone
3B. 99 - P. Dawson - fail, not even in NFL

2016
1. 24 W. Jackson III - has been average at best lately, will that change ?
*2. 55 T. Boyd - very good
3. 87 N. Vigil - average probably at best, some would say not even that

2017
1. 9 J. Ross - for a top ten pick his production/availibility has been much lower than that, thus far pretty much a fail.
*2. 48 J. Mixon - very good
3. 73 J. Willis - fail, gone

2018
1. 21 B. Price - pretty much fail up to now, will it change ?
2. 54 J. Bates - average player
*3A 77 S. Hubbard - very good
3B 78 M. Jefferson - fail 

2019
1. 11 J. Williams - hasn't played a snap yet
2. 52 D. Sample - limited snaps then went on IR what 5th game ?
3. 72 J. Pratt - came on a bit late but jury is still out

That's three players above average out of 17 chances in the first three rounds in the last 5 drafts. Are there players that could still turn out ? Sure

But what matters are results, and the results have been bad no matter how you spin it. For a team that relies so heavily on the draft the success rate has to be twice what it has been.

Yes, honestly your last sentence nails why we should move on if things do not improve.

If we are going to rely heavily on the Draft we better for damn sure be great at it.

[Whodey614]

Everyone is rough on Duke which is very understandable. There have been some BAD misses since 2014. WTS, no team ever has a perfect draft even in the strongest classes. You need a balance of good drafting AND free agents. I think a mix of our hits in the draft and a couple of decent free agents every year would field a much better team. Instead, you get articles from Geoff Hobson swearing up and down Alex Redmond is the next Gene Upshaw and you end up reaching for John Ross when you didn't have to if you just retained one of Jones/Sanu (Marvin wanted to be #1 so he probably leaves anyway).

This year seems like a great opportunity to stack up at some positions since they pick 1st in every round. So we will truly see what Tobin and Zac are made of.