{The Ultimate ANDY DALTON Mega Thread}

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-18-2016, 06:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You know, even if that was a bad play by Dalton (I don't think it was), how many WTF throws did he have this year? One?

Every QB throws a few passes that make you scratch your head every year. Heck, Carson had a couple against us and that was just one game.

Dalton had a phenomenal year and if you're hating on him over a single pass, it really is telling.

INT vs Pittsburgh in the redzone I think is the only one I can remember off the top of my head. But any QB who throws a red zone INT is a WTF throw 

[TexasorBusted]

(01-18-2016, 06:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You know, even if that was a bad play by Dalton (I don't think it was), how many WTF throws did he have this year? One?

Every QB throws a few passes that make you scratch your head every year. Heck, Carson had a couple against us and that was just one game.

Dalton had a phenomenal year and if you're hating on him over a single pass, it really is telling.

I can only think of two....First was the INT before half vs Seahawks....Second was 4th quarter INT at Steelers....

But overall, a great season by Dalton...Expect similar smart play next year....

[t3r3e3]

(01-18-2016, 10:28 PM)TexasorBusted Wrote: I can only think of two....First was the INT before half vs Seahawks....Second was 4th quarter INT at Steelers....

But overall, a great season by Dalton...Expect similar smart play next year....

Those and the shovel pass play were the three I thought of. Either way, easily Andy's best season, and we hope for more of the same in 2016, sans getting hurt of course.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I'm not sure I like the Bill Lazor hire at all. Everything I read about him/Tannehill is just awful.


http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2016/01/the-dynamics-between-ryan-tannehill-and-his-coaches.html
"And those doubts showed up at times. But despite reports of discord between Lazor and several offensive players throughout 2014, Tannehill defended Lazor. He showed confidence in Lazor. Lazor, on the other hand, didn't seem to show the same confidence in Tannehill privately.

I'm told the issue of the audibles -- Tannehill wanting the ability to call new plays, and Lazor not budging on simply giving the QB a couple of choices to pick from at the line of scrimmage -- festered. The two also disagreed on how strong a voice Tannehill should have about portions of the game plan. Tannehill wanted to be more involved, and Lazor was apparently not eager to give away such power because thought he knew better."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000593159/article/ryan-tannehill-doesnt-sound-like-hell-miss-bill-lazor
"I'm just excited about being part of the game plan," Tannehill said Wednesday (via ESPN.com), two days after the Dolphins announced they had dismissed Lazor following a lopsided loss to the Jets. "Working with the coaches Monday and (Tuesday), just being a part of the game-plan process and having my thoughts heard and kind of putting our heads together to create some of the things we want to do, it's been fun so far."

Under Lazor, Tannehill was not allowed to audible at the line of scrimmage unless it was to check into a play that Lazor had cleared beforehand. It's a stifling way to run offense -- especially in 2015 -- and it's understandable if Tannehill felt constrained by the arrangement.


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I'm not sure that's the guy I want interacting with and influencing my QBs.

[RoyleRedlegs]

That all sounds like a playcalling issue. Not a QB coach issue.
Under Lazor NICK ***** FOLES had a 27:2 TD/INT ratio.

[*rfaulk34*]

A QB coach isn't going to come in and start telling the QB and OC what audibles he can and can't call.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-26-2016, 09:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That all sounds like a playcalling issue. Not a QB coach issue.
Under Lazor NICK ***** FOLES had a 27:2 TD/INT ratio.

True, but he's had an awful lot of demotions in his coaching career it seems.

Was in college, got an NFL OC/QB Coach job, lost it and went to being an NFL assistant. Had another little run as QB Coach in the NFL, lost it and went back to college. Got another QB job in the NFL, got a OC job in the NFL, lost it, back to QB Coach.

Meanwhile someone like Zimmer went from college assistant, to ILB coach, to DB coach, to DC, to NFL DB coach, to NFL DC, NFL DC, NFL DC, NFL HC.

All an upward arc, you know? Same with Marvin Lewis, same with Paul Geunther, same with Vance Joseph, etc.

Hue Jackson had some extenuating circumstances since the owner who hired him died, but before him, the biggest names I can think of who hadn't been on an upward trajectory was Bob Bratkowski and Chuck Bresnahan, neither of which were enjoyable experiences.

(In fairness to the other side of my point though, I guess Leslie Frazier was on an upward trajectory when he became the Bengals DC in '03.)

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-26-2016, 11:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: A QB coach isn't going to come in and start telling the QB and OC what audibles he can and can't call.

I'm not really worried that he will, but my point is I don't know if I want that kind of guy around Dalton (or McCarron if Dalton gets hurt again) regardless of his level of power. It doesn't sound like he's a guy who will help nurture a QB's mind to think for itself. QBs who can only do what they're told are only as good as their coaches (Colin Kaepernick with and without Harbaugh, anyone?) Meanwhile, look at Manning. MVPs with different teams/OC/etc, and even old as dirt and with a noodle arm, his ability to call plays and read defenses still make him a viable QB who might win the Super Bowl.

Those quote just make him seem more like a guy who'll raise you a Kaepernick than a Manning.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-26-2016, 07:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not sure I like the Bill Lazor hire at all. Everything I read about him/Tannehill is just awful.


http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2016/01/the-dynamics-between-ryan-tannehill-and-his-coaches.html
"And those doubts showed up at times. But despite reports of discord between Lazor and several offensive players throughout 2014, Tannehill defended Lazor. He showed confidence in Lazor. Lazor, on the other hand, didn't seem to show the same confidence in Tannehill privately.

I'm told the issue of the audibles -- Tannehill wanting the ability to call new plays, and Lazor not budging on simply giving the QB a couple of choices to pick from at the line of scrimmage -- festered. The two also disagreed on how strong a voice Tannehill should have about portions of the game plan. Tannehill wanted to be more involved, and Lazor was apparently not eager to give away such power because thought he knew better."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000593159/article/ryan-tannehill-doesnt-sound-like-hell-miss-bill-lazor
"I'm just excited about being part of the game plan," Tannehill said Wednesday (via ESPN.com), two days after the Dolphins announced they had dismissed Lazor following a lopsided loss to the Jets. "Working with the coaches Monday and (Tuesday), just being a part of the game-plan process and having my thoughts heard and kind of putting our heads together to create some of the things we want to do, it's been fun so far."

Under Lazor, Tannehill was not allowed to audible at the line of scrimmage unless it was to check into a play that Lazor had cleared beforehand. It's a stifling way to run offense -- especially in 2015 -- and it's understandable if Tannehill felt constrained by the arrangement.


- - - - - - -
I'm not sure that's the guy I want interacting with and influencing my QBs.

did you ever think Lazor felt restrained become of Tannehill...hmmmm

[Essex Johnson]

(01-26-2016, 11:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: A QB coach isn't going to come in and start telling the QB and OC what audibles he can and can't call.

You got that right.... me think  Leonard is Leaping a bit much on this ... 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-26-2016, 11:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: True, but he's had an awful lot of demotions in his coaching career it seems.

Was in college, got an NFL OC/QB Coach job, lost it and went to being an NFL assistant. Had another little run as QB Coach in the NFL, lost it and went back to college. Got another QB job in the NFL, got a OC job in the NFL, lost it, back to QB Coach.

Meanwhile someone like Zimmer went from college assistant, to ILB coach, to DB coach, to DC, to NFL DB coach, to NFL DC, NFL DC, NFL DC, NFL HC.

All an upward arc, you know? Same with Marvin Lewis, same with Paul Geunther, same with Vance Joseph, etc.

Hue Jackson had some extenuating circumstances since the owner who hired him died, but before him, the biggest names I can think of who hadn't been on an upward trajectory was Bob Bratkowski and Chuck Bresnahan, neither of which were enjoyable experiences.

(In fairness to the other side of my point though, I guess Leslie Frazier was on an upward trajectory when he became the Bengals DC in '03.)

Horrible exaggerations here.

Lazor started as an assistant at Cornell, where he played. 
He was then OC/QB coach at University of Buffalo
Then spent the next 3 years as an assistant coach in the NFL.
Then the next 4 years as a QB coach.
Then got hired as an OC/QB coach at Virginia. 
Then back to the NFL as a QB coach.
Then as an OC.
Now a QB coach again. 

There's only one demotion in there. And that's from Miami to here. 

In his two seasons in Miami, Lazor had Ryan Tannehill drop his INT rate by nearly a full point and got his QB rating up to 88 and 92 from 76 and 81. 
Under Lazor Tannehill's completion % went from 59% to 64% which is a solid number, enough for Palmer and Brady to nearly reach the Super Bowl. 

[BengalChris]

(01-26-2016, 11:56 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: did you ever think Lazor felt restrained become of Tannehill...hmmmm

Tannehill has had good production every year. He hasn't had all that much talent around him though. Compare his numbers from his 1st four years to other QBs. He's done well, considering.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2016, 02:43 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Tannehill has had good production every year. He hasn't had all that much talent around him though. Compare his numbers from his 1st four years to other QBs. He's done well, considering.

You also have to consider that Tannehill only played QB for 2 seasons in college.  He was a WR his first two years at A&M.

He was a VERY raw prospect when he came into the league.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-28-2016, 02:43 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Tannehill has had good production every year. He hasn't had all that much talent around him though. Compare his numbers from his 1st four years to other QBs. He's done well, considering.

well look wat Lazor did with Foles... so I could also argue that Lazor was a direct impact on Fole's growth.. just as someone might try to argue he had adverse effect on Tannehills growh... point is, we really don;t know especially since we are just the common fan here in this debate and not in the inner circle of coaches and the NFL

[*PhilHos*]

Allow me to remind everyone that at one point in time we had Ken Anderson as our QB coach back when guys like Akili Smith were our QB. I distinctly remember Kenny getting a lot of the blame for how our QBs turned out and when a few years later, he became the QB coach to Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers, I remember some guffaws on how he was going to ruin Roethlisberger's career. Ben then proceeded to throw 32 TDs 11 INTs and to the highest QB rating of his career (to this day that's still his best season).

QB coaches, IMO, don't have as much an impact on a QB's abilities as people seem to think.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 02:32 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Allow me to remind everyone that at one point in time we had Ken Anderson as our QB coach back when guys like Akili Smith were our QB. I distinctly remember Kenny getting a lot of the blame for how our QBs turned out and when a few years later, he became the QB coach to Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers, I remember some guffaws on how he was going to ruin Roethlisberger's career. Ben then proceeded to throw 32 TDs 11 INTs and to the highest QB rating of his career (to this day that's still his best season).

QB coaches, IMO, don't have as much an impact on a QB's abilities as people seem to think.

Well it's not that simple at least.

A coach can teach the best technique in the world. 
But it's up to the player to have the talent and desire to take it to heart. 

You can take a lineman with a horrible pass set and teach him the right one. You can tell him fifteen times. But if he isn't willing to sit there and do it a thousand times and build it into his brain, it won't matter. 

[*PhilHos*]

(01-28-2016, 02:40 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Well it's not that simple at least.

A coach can teach the best technique in the world. 
But it's up to the player to have the talent and desire to take it to heart. 

You can take a lineman with a horrible pass set and teach him the right one. You can tell him fifteen times. But if he isn't willing to sit there and do it a thousand times and build it into his brain, it won't matter. 

There's even more to it than that, but my point being that I don't think we need to be concerned with Lazor's supposed success or lack thereof when it comes to Dalton.

[Savagehenry54]

(01-26-2016, 11:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not really worried that he will, but my point is I don't know if I want that kind of guy around Dalton (or McCarron if Dalton gets hurt again) regardless of his level of power. It doesn't sound like he's a guy who will help nurture a QB's mind to think for itself. QBs who can only do what they're told are only as good as their coaches (Colin Kaepernick with and without Harbaugh, anyone?) Meanwhile, look at Manning. MVPs with different teams/OC/etc, and even old as dirt and with a noodle arm, his ability to call plays and read defenses still make him a viable QB who might win the Super Bowl.

Those quote just make him seem more like a guy who'll raise you a Kaepernick than a Manning.

Dalton and this offense are already established.  Dalton is already at the line of scrimmage with the entire playbook at his disposal, you can't put that tremendous advantage back in the bottle now.  I don't see a qb coach causing a regression at this point for Dalton.  Now a new OC with a new system, sure,  but that's not what's happening here.

[Hammerthis]

(01-18-2016, 06:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Dalton had a phenomenal year and if you're hating on him over a single pass, it really is telling.

Coming into the season the big question mark on Andy was "can he perform well in the post season"? 

I think it's more accurate to say "he had a phenomenal 2015 regular season, and it's too bad we're still left wondering if he can pull it off". Not to be harsh on Andy, the same thing can be said about Carson Palmer.
But whatever is ailing Andy in the post season should no longer placed at the feet of ML. Some QBs just never perform well in the post season.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-29-2016, 09:28 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Coming into the season the big question mark on Andy was "can he perform well in the post season"? 

I think it's more accurate to say "he had a phenomenal 2015 regular season, and it's too bad we're still left wondering if he can pull it off". Not to be harsh on Andy, the same thing can be said about Carson Palmer.
But whatever is ailing Andy in the post season should no longer placed at the feet of ML. Some QBs just never perform well in the post season.

well since he did not play in the post season, i still would say he had a phenomenal year since you can't grade him lower because he got hurt and was unable to play (people doing that are just showing their bias against Dalton).. and i would also argue that having a rough 2014 season and  could he bounce back in 2015 and even lead us to the playoffs was on just as many minds.. 

Lets be honest when you are really rating a player and at what level they are performance wise.. to compare a playoff game to a 16 game season is very skewed thinking.  

That type of thinking is why Kenny Anderson to me is not in the Hall of Fame.. because he did not win a Super Bowl and why Joe Namath is in the Hall of Fame because he did.  Look at both of their careers and you can;t tell me Anderson out performed Namath throughout their careers.  

Dalton is on pace to have a strong career over time  and if he continues at that level and fall short in the playoffs he still is going to go down as a good QB.. their are many good QBs that have had little success in playoffs ,  Here is a list of Qbs that never won a super bowl, with a few of them never making it even there.   The quality of their career of many of them outweigh lack of success in playoffs.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/604599-top-10-quarterbacks-that-never-reached-a-super-bowl