Safety Vonn Bell Signed

[Schmitbuck]

(03-25-2020, 03:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This made me re-think my Delpit pick in the 2nd I keep making....

Think we go Offense now pretty much the whole Draft except LB, even then we added Bynes and we are going to more of a 3-4
hybrid so Hubbard, Lawson would be OLB's at times so we may be better at LB then we thought. Also with Bell and Shawn they
can play nickel LB for us.

Well, let's see a new mock draft then. 

I agree that it'll likely be offense except for LB, but I'm out of the guessing game right now with what they'll do because this is so foreign to me.

If it were me, I think the 2nd round priority would be a LB, WR, or OL in that order. But who knows, there could be a DE/DT where the value is too good to pass up. 

Regarding LB, I think having the top waiver priority is going to be utilized quite a bit at the end of training camp. Whatever they can't get in the draft will be filled in with undrafted FAs. 

So I guess I'm back in the guessing game.  

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-25-2020, 08:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: These are PFF ratings, so take them with a grain of salt, but by comparison...

Dennard 72.2 vs Alexander 65.7= -6.5

WJIII 53.6 vs Waynes 65.1= +11.5

Williams 54.4 vs Bell 64.8= +10.4

Vigil 54.4 vs Bynes 76.2= +21.8

Billings 69.3 vs Reader 86.7= +17.4

Miller 58.6 vs XSF 60.1 = +1.5

The only real lateral move that was made was at RG.  While most are assuming Waynes is Dre's replacement, WJIII is in a contract year and has basically been a one year wonder.  He is not good.  He hasn't been good for years.  

Dennard v Alexander seems to be a lateral move as well. Dennard's rating is higher but we maybe gain some availability - remember Dennard missed the first half of the season and the D improved after he returned.

Waynes isn't so much an immediate improvement as tying down a position long term and freeing up the draft.

We get the most out of the Bell signing if he doesn't replace Williams but supplements him. We should maybe think of this as more Bell v Fejedelem and giving Lou another piece.

Vigil and Bynes shouldn't be directly comparable. Bynes is more of a (good) rotational piece playing 1st and 2nd down compared to Vigil who was playing all 3 downs. If we use Bynes for all 3 downs his PFF score will drop. Where this upgrades us is if Bell/Williams comes in on 3rd downs letting them play more to their strengths.

Billings v Reader - this is the big upgrade.


The real benefit of the Free Agency spending is to free up the draft but even when players are laterals, we may see an improvement if they are a better scheme fit for what Anarumo is trying to do on D.

[Sled21]

(03-26-2020, 02:37 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Maybe Zac caused a change or maybe the change happened before and resulted in a coaching change. Who knows.

So far though, as a coach, we haven't seen much of anything to cheer Zac about. Only two wins was significantly worse than the previous coach. Maybe his orders were to lose, lose, lose and get the 1st pick while looking like you are trying hard to win, in which case Zac gets an A+ for his acting skills.

 

Zac failed last year in one category.... play calling. He and his staff arrived at the last minute, were able to draft Williams and Pratt, and had the team right there in most of the games. Further, he got the players to buy in to the system he is implementing, and held the locker room when it could very easily have been lost. Now, we see him getting MB to bring in players to fit what he wants to do in a manner never seen before by Bengaldom.  Yes, he needs to give play calling to Callahan, at least until he has more experience, but in every other aspect of being a head coach he gets an A+

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-26-2020, 08:27 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Zac failed last year in one category.... play calling. He and his staff arrived at the last minute, were able to draft Williams and Pratt, and had the team right there in most of the games. Further, he got the players to buy in to the system he is implementing, and held the locker room when it could very easily have been lost. Now, we see him getting MB to bring in players to fit what he wants to do in a manner never seen before by Bengaldom.  Yes, he needs to give play calling to Callahan, at least until he has more experience, but in every other aspect of being a head coach he gets an A+

I don’t think he gets an A+ for the coaching staff he put together. Not when there was better options out there like Del Rio. It would have been nice to have someone who had at least been a coordinator somewhere. On either side of the ball.

Let’s hope they all get better though. We’ll see...

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2020, 06:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Shawn isn't starting over Vonn Bell and we needed insurance for when he might leave and we needed another nickel backer.

Killing all kinds of birds with one stone with this signing...

And with a SS like Dugger in Rd 3, he could be developed as Williams will be gone next year, and Bell probably won't see the third year of his deal.  Helps now, helps down the road.  

I hated watching the likes of Polumolu and Ed Reed destroy us over the years and we never had a player like them.  Dugger is a dog and a ball hawking freak.  I want a tough alpha like him patrolling our defense for years to come.  I think Bates becomes a better player by eliminating the drop downs (easy pickings) and he and the other safety likely won't lead the team in tackles.  

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 08:27 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Zac failed last year in one category.... play calling. He and his staff arrived at the last minute, were able to draft Williams and Pratt, and had the team right there in most of the games. Further, he got the players to buy in to the system he is implementing, and held the locker room when it could very easily have been lost. Now, we see him getting MB to bring in players to fit what he wants to do in a manner never seen before by Bengaldom.  Yes, he needs to give play calling to Callahan, at least until he has more experience, but in every other aspect of being a head coach he gets an A+

Let's look at his draft picks

J Williams - N/A through injury.  To be determined if he can stick at Tackle or will need to move inside to Guard as some pundits predicted.
Sample - an unconvincing start before injury curtailed his season. The coaching staff are higher on him than the fans.
Pratt - the most successful pick to date and primed to go into this season as the starter
Finley - drafted up for him, quickly benched him and now drafting a QB 1st overall.
Wren - developmental NT. How well that development has gone can be seen by how their major off-season acquisition was a NT a year older who will still be under contract when Wren hits free agency.
Jordan - developmental guard. Thrown in early and struggled. Returned and wasn't as bad. Penciled in as starter but coaching staff have far greater confidence in him than those outside the building
T Williams - disappointing
Davis - cut and didn't even make the PS at a position where you only had to be a warm body to make the 53, let alone PS. 
Anderson - flashed in pre-season and got injured, which is why he was available in the first place. Worth the gamble but hasn't paid off yet.
Brown - cut and didn't even make the PS at a position where they have gone and signed 5 (five) players before the draft.

It's possible this ends up as an A+ draft but that's more of a D for now. His free agency last year was an E (only escaping an F as it's only cost us $5m in dead cap to move on from).

The only way Zac was A+ last year was if the tank was deliberate and Burrow becomes what we hope he will be.

But it doesn't matter if he was A+ or D last year, so long as he's learning and improving and not going to make the same mistakes twice. His hire was always a long time hire who was going to have to learn on the job due to his inexperience. He inherited a difficult situation and struggled. 

They seem to be far more on top of stuff than last year and that's promising. Add that to the way he held the team together last year and there's grounds for optimism.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2020, 11:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: PFF certainly isn't the only thing we can use to judge players on.  However, "X isn't an upgrade over Y because I say so" isn't really a discussion point.  Gotta bring more to the table than that.

It's the job of the coaches and FO to identify players that will work in their schemes to upgrade the roster.  If they're signing guys over top of guys currently on the roster, it's because they feel those players will work better in their schemes.  Some of these guys will probably surprise, both for good and for bad.  

What Shawn Williams, WJIII, Vigil, and company did years ago in Paul Guenther's defense is pretty much irrelevant because they don't play in Paul Guenther's defense anymore.  We have seen one year of those guys in Lou Anarumo's defense, so that's what we have to base their performance and ability to produce within the scheme on.  It doesn't necessarily mean these guys can't produce in a different scheme.  However, they performed poorly in the current scheme so the FO is bringing in players that they expect to perform better.

Our LB's sucked last year against both the run and the pass.  A guy that can at least play the run is an upgrade.  If they can stop the run and get to 3rd and long, they can get Bynes off the field.  Plus, he's a smart player and disciplined in his assignments and should be able to help the younger guys.  

This point is lost on so many as to how significantly this killed the entire defense.  LBs that whiffed on tackles.  LBs that were out of position.  LBs that couldn't trail a TE or RB out of the backfield and allowed for easy checkdowns.  I don't have the numbers to back this up, but most opposing QBs never beat them deep.  They didn't have to.  But asking your CBs and S to cover as long as they did only to give up an easy check down was a function of little to no pass rush and poor coverage out of the backfield.  

A speedy guy like Queen in nickel with Pratt will go a long way to helping in coverage, and as someone mentioned earlier:  The improved tackling across the board, the presence of Reader in the middle.  It is a lot tougher to complete a 3rd and 8 than 3rd and 2.  

[bengals1969]

(03-26-2020, 07:51 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Well, let's see a new mock draft then. 

I agree that it'll likely be offense except for LB, but I'm out of the guessing game right now with what they'll do because this is so foreign to me.

If it were me, I think the 2nd round priority would be a LB, WR, or OL in that order. But who knows, there could be a DE/DT where the value is too good to pass up. 

Regarding LB, I think having the top waiver priority is going to be utilized quite a bit at the end of training camp. Whatever they can't get in the draft will be filled in with undrafted FAs. 

So I guess I'm back in the guessing game.  

I love having FA before the draft. A game changer when a team is loaded with available cap space.
Now look at the Bengals draft needs. Needs are LB(maybe), LG, RT, TE and WR.
Where is the draft deep? WR and OL. I see those spots as the greatest needs and where the most talent is. Could picks 33, 65, 97 be WR and OL for need and BPA? I can see it.

[Au165]

So full contract numbers are out and it’s way better than I expected. Very team friendly.

2020: $3M to sign, $3M base, $1 reporting bonus.
2021: $4.1M base, $200K workout, $200K in per-games.
2022: $6.1M base, $200K workout, $200K in per-games.

[Sled21]

(03-26-2020, 09:36 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Let's look at his draft picks

J Williams - N/A through injury.  To be determined if he can stick at Tackle or will need to move inside to Guard as some pundits predicted.
Sample - an unconvincing start before injury curtailed his season. The coaching staff are higher on him than the fans.
Pratt - the most successful pick to date and primed to go into this season as the starter
Finley - drafted up for him, quickly benched him and now drafting a QB 1st overall.
Wren - developmental NT. How well that development has gone can be seen by how their major off-season acquisition was a NT a year older who will still be under contract when Wren hits free agency.
Jordan - developmental guard. Thrown in early and struggled. Returned and wasn't as bad. Penciled in as starter but coaching staff have far greater confidence in him than those outside the building
T Williams - disappointing
Davis - cut and didn't even make the PS at a position where you only had to be a warm body to make the 53, let alone PS. 
Anderson - flashed in pre-season and got injured, which is why he was available in the first place. Worth the gamble but hasn't paid off yet.
Brown - cut and didn't even make the PS at a position where they have gone and signed 5 (five) players before the draft.

It's possible this ends up as an A+ draft but that's more of a D for now. His free agency last year was an E (only escaping an F as it's only cost us $5m in dead cap to move on from).

The only way Zac was A+ last year was if the tank was deliberate and Burrow becomes what we hope he will be.

But it doesn't matter if he was A+ or D last year, so long as he's learning and improving and not going to make the same mistakes twice. His hire was always a long time hire who was going to have to learn on the job due to his inexperience. He inherited a difficult situation and struggled. 

They seem to be far more on top of stuff than last year and that's promising. Add that to the way he held the team together last year and there's grounds for optimism.

Look at your own write up of the draft. #1 Williams-injured  #2 Sample- injured #3 Pratt- emerged as the best LB on the team in his first season. Wren, as you said, was a developmental player. Jordan- another developmental who vastly improved to the point of being penciled in as a starter.  You can't blame the top picks because injuries occurred. They will show or not show this year. So they whiffed on Davis, Anderson and Brown. Given the late start Taylor and crew got, this was not a bad draft class. Let's see how this year plays out...

[Cicero]

(03-25-2020, 06:59 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: With all of these great signings in free-agency, I am now more convinced the season will be cancelled.

I'm guessing they would isolate all players and officials and play the games in empty stadiums. TV is where the money is anyway.

Been watching this team since 1988. I have never seen this kind of off season or anything close to it. Even mroe exciting than names etc. is that based on the signings there is a clear plan to win. We've not had that since circa 2005. Even then parts of that team were slopped together and there were no major free agency acquisitions. Medical marijuana has been good to the Brown family.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 11:41 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Look at your own write up of the draft. #1 Williams-injured  #2 Sample- injured #3 Pratt- emerged as the best LB on the team in his first season. Wren, as you said, was a developmental player. Jordan- another developmental who vastly improved to the point of being penciled in as a starter.  You can't blame the top picks because injuries occurred. They will show or not show this year. So they whiffed on Davis, Anderson and Brown. Given the late start Taylor and crew got, this was not a bad draft class. Let's see how this year plays out...

They whiffed on Finley and Wren as well - as evidenced by them spending big on the position within 12 months.

We have no evidence at NFL level to suggest Jonah Williams is a good draft pick yet either. Early evidence on Sample is not encouraging.

This is currently a bad draft class. It certainly has time to improve but it is currently a fail.

[fredtoast]

(03-26-2020, 11:59 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: This is currently a bad draft class. It certainly has time to improve but it is currently a fail.

This is like declaring a season failure after losing the first game.

It is silly to even judge it at this point.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is like declaring a season failure after losing the first game.

It is silly to even judge it at this point.

I was responding to someone giving a grade of A+ for the first year and acknowledged that it was early and things had plenty of time to change.

[JerseyDD09]

(03-26-2020, 11:41 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Look at your own write up of the draft. #1 Williams-injured  #2 Sample- injured #3 Pratt- emerged as the best LB on the team in his first season. Wren, as you said, was a developmental player. Jordan- another developmental who vastly improved to the point of being penciled in as a starter.  You can't blame the top picks because injuries occurred. They will show or not show this year. So they whiffed on Davis, Anderson and Brown. Given the late start Taylor and crew got, this was not a bad draft class. Let's see how this year plays out...

Looking back on that, they supposedly got the LB Davis endorsement from their new LB coach, who they ended up firing too after the season. It seemed like the late hiring at that position and the reach in the draft backfired on them.
I don't solely blame that on Zac as the FO is also to blame as they help with the candidates and hiring process as well. And, it was so late in the game for Taylor.
Man, LB and OL have been the achilles heel for this team for a few years now. They just can't seem to get it right.

Hopefully, they change it around in this draft?

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 01:17 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: Looking back on that, they supposedly got the LB Davis endorsement from their new LB coach, who they ended up firing too after the season. It seemed like the late hiring at that position and the reach in the draft backfired on them.
I don't solely blame that on Zac as the FO is also to blame as they help with the candidates and hiring process as well. And, it was so late in the game for Taylor.
Man, LB and OL have been the achilles heel for this team for a few years now. They just can't seem to get it right.

Hopefully, they change it around in this draft?

Was he fired? I thought he left to take up a DC job in college.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 02:01 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’m sure that the roster upgrade will make him look better.

Should, just need to put in a scheme similar to what Burrow had at LSU while keeping the blocking scheme they used late last
year. I cannot help but think Taylor was making bad play calls last year for the #1 pick once he knew we were out of it so he 
could build his own team. I don't find it to be a coincidence that once the #1 pick was locked up we started winning games 
and the play calling improved immensely.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 07:51 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Well, let's see a new mock draft then. 

I agree that it'll likely be offense except for LB, but I'm out of the guessing game right now with what they'll do because this is so foreign to me.

If it were me, I think the 2nd round priority would be a LB, WR, or OL in that order. But who knows, there could be a DE/DT where the value is too good to pass up. 

Regarding LB, I think having the top waiver priority is going to be utilized quite a bit at the end of training camp. Whatever they can't get in the draft will be filled in with undrafted FAs. 

So I guess I'm back in the guessing game.  

I am gonna do a new Mock later today, completely agree with you, will be mostly Offense now with a sprinkle of LB and BPA.

What a great Free Agency, damn.

[Sled21]

(03-26-2020, 11:59 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: They whiffed on Finley and Wren as well - as evidenced by them spending big on the position within 12 months.

We have no evidence at NFL level to suggest Jonah Williams is a good draft pick yet either. Early evidence on Sample is not encouraging.

This is currently a bad draft class. It certainly has time to improve but it is currently a fail.

Wren, as you stated, was drafted as a developmental player. You cannot label a developmental player a whiff in his first season, he is not expected to be good. It's how well he develops. Looks like he's on track to me. Williams has no NFL experience yet, but he was the only college tackle who could handle Miles Garrett one on one. He will be fine.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 02:08 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Wren, as you stated, was drafted as a developmental player. You cannot label a developmental player a whiff in his first season, he is not expected to be good. It's how well he develops. Looks like he's on track to me. Williams has no NFL experience yet, but he was the only college tackle who could handle Miles Garrett one on one. He will be fine.

Wren clearly hasn't developed as they hoped, otherwise they wouldn't have sunk over $55m into the position in Free Agency.

Compare that to how they view Jordan, another developmental prospect.