No O Line Help Is Bad News

[*Synric*]

(04-25-2020, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true.  Dalton made lots of plays outside the pocket.

This is kind of like the myth that Dalton is the worst at throwing deep or that he gets more balls batted down.  Fans watch highlights of QBs completeing all their deep passes and making a bunch of wild plays outside the pocket.  But if they watched every play of every game they would see a lot of good QBs missing on deep passes, getting their passes batted down at the line of scrimmage or reacting to pressure by throwing the ball away or taking a sack.

AJ helped with Andy's vertical routes but without AJ his vertical routes success rate drops. Also no Andy isnt good off script in fact most of his post snap is bad that's one of his biggest knocks. He thrives pre-snap and gets the ball out quick.

Edit: Andy's post snap reads is a reason Joe Mixon doesn't have more success as a check down and why Gio has been limited for a few years now.

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:14 PM)Fullrock Wrote:  You are dead wrong. Dalton was one of the worst at making plays when stuff broke down. Period. 

Give me the rankings of all QBs at making plays when blocking breaks down.  You have to know this in order to say Dalton is one of the worst.  Which QBs are better and which ones are worse.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-25-2020, 05:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Damn.  I forgot all about that rule that if you don't draft 3 O-linemen then you are not allowed to draft any.

We just drafted one. Now you and all the squealers can calm down.

We all know it’s only been the OL holding this team back after all...

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:17 PM)Synric Wrote: AJ helped with Andy's vertical routes but without AJ his vertical routes success rate drops.

Which NFL QB does not have a drop in his vertical routes success rate when he losses his #1 deep threat?

[lone bengal]

(04-25-2020, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  PFF grades are pretty meaningless.

2.  Johnson played less than a game and a half against two teams that ranked 19th and 32nd in sacks.  All the hype over him is exactly like Christian Westerman.

Agree on Johnson a lot of hype for a guy that played a game and a half vs the Dolphins awful D and the Browns without Miles Garrett. Just having a tough time believing this undrafted practice squad player from Pittsburgh is a hidden gem. He played at a big time program at Florida and still wasn’t deemed to be draftable. Not saying undrafted players can’t be good just numbers wise they usually don’t pan out.

[*Synric*]

(04-25-2020, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Which NFL QB does not have a drop in his vertical routes success rate when he losses his #1 deep threat?

How many other receivers for the Bengals over the years have had success in vertical routes with Dalton?

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We all know it’s only been the OL holding this team back after all...

Actually no one has ever made that claim, but just so I can get it on the record let me hear you say the O-line has not been a problem.

[The Real Deal]

(04-25-2020, 05:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is a huge difference between using objective stats and PFFs subjective rating system.  I am as in favor of using objective stats and analytics as anyone it is just their rating system is a joke.

If NFL teams had any respect for PFF rankings then their highest rated OT would not have been the 8th one off the board in the third round.

Typing this while wearing bell bottoms and listening to your Walkman I presume. I’m just trying to figure out how you hooked your typewriter up to the interwebs.

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:22 PM)Synric Wrote: How many other receivers for the Bengals over the years have had success in vertical routes with Dalton?

What do you consider "success"?

And are you going to provide a list of the of the success rate for all other NFL QBS when their #1 deep threat is out?

[Fullrock]

(04-25-2020, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Give me the rankings of all QBs at making plays when blocking breaks down.  You have to know this in order to say Dalton is one of the worst.  Which QBs are better and which ones are worse.

There are no such rankings. It comes from watching games. Hell, Dalton threw the ball away one time on a 4th down. Purposely threw it out of bounds. He rarely looks to make plays down the field when things break down. All you have to do is watch. 

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:28 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Typing this while wearing bell bottoms and listening to your Walkman I presume.  I’m just trying to figure out how you hooked your typewriter up to the interwebs.

Maybe you should stop obsesseing on personal attacks on me and try to explain how the OT that PFF ranke #1 in both pass blocking and run blocking lasted until the third round if NFL teams are relying on PFF rankins to make decisions.

[*Synric*]

(04-25-2020, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What do you consider "success"?

And are you going to provide a list of the of the success rate for all other NFL QBS when their #1 deep threat is out?

Marvin Jones is the only other receiver to have success with vertical routes with Andy Dalton. Most of his receivers have success with in breaking routes and hooks and curls.

Dalton is below average in his career in 7, 8, and 9 routes. 

[McC]

Dudes...don't take the Fred bait.

Instead, turn and argue with the nearest wall. It'll be the same result.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-25-2020, 05:40 PM)McC Wrote: Dudes...don't take the Fred bait.

Instead, turn and argue with the nearest wall. It'll be the same result.

[Fullrock]

(04-25-2020, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe you should stop obsesseing on personal attacks on me and try to explain how the OT that PFF ranke #1 in both pass blocking and run blocking lasted until the third round if NFL teams are relying on PFF rankins to make decisions.

 Do you really need that explained to you? Jones played at Houston. They don't exactly play in the best conference. Competitive level matters. If he put up those numbers in the SEC he would have been a top 10 pick. 

[fredtoast]

(04-25-2020, 05:35 PM)Fullrock Wrote: There are no such rankings. It comes from watching games. 

If you can't tell me which QBs are better and which ones are worse then your claim that Dalton is among the worst is meaningless.  If you watched all Bengal games then you would see Dalton make many plays outside the pocket.  

The fact that you can't tell me how many more or less he makes than other NFL QBs proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

[*Synric*]

(04-25-2020, 05:40 PM)McC Wrote: Dudes...don't take the Fred bait.  

Instead, turn and argue with the nearest wall.  It'll be the same result.

Meh... I've been arguing with Fred since I said Trent Richardson would bust and Doug Martin would be the best RB in the draft class.

[BengalChris]

(04-25-2020, 03:22 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Except for 1st round LT Jonah Williams.

He was here last season, FYI. Just hope that he stays healthy, cause without him and Glenn gone that spot will be a mess once again.

 

[The Real Deal]

(04-25-2020, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe you should stop obsesseing on personal attacks on me and try to explain how the OT that PFF ranke #1 in both pass blocking and run blocking lasted until the third round if NFL teams are relying on PFF rankins to make decisions.

And maybe you should stop and think that maybe the Bengals analytics are telling them the exact same thing the PFF analytics are saying: the oline progressively improved as the season went on.

You have no idea what their analytics say. If anything the bengals actions are proving that their analytics and PFF’s are seemingly pretty well aligned.

Ask joe Mixon if he thinks there was a direct correlation between the rise in PFF grades and their caliber of play on the field.

[Fullrock]

(04-25-2020, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you can't tell me which QBs are better and which ones are worse then your claim that Dalton is among the worst is meaningless.  If you watched all Bengal games then you would see Dalton make many plays outside the pocket.  

The fact that you can't tell me how many more or less he makes than other NFL QBs proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

I forgot more football than you know. 

Ben made a living extending plays and making plays outside the pocket. DeShaun Watson, Aaron Rodgers, Lamar Jackson,  Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Jimmy G, Jared Goff, Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Carson Wentz, Cam Newton all better at making plays when things break down than Dalton. Those are just off the top of my head. Dalton would be way down the list. If you can't see that then you're either blind or stubborn or both. 

I'm out. I have better things to do than argue your ridiculous take.