Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-08-2020, 10:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You want to attack me for things I never said, so instead you make up pretend quotes.

I feel sorry for people who live in make believe land.

LSU O-LINE WINS JOE MOORE TROPHY 

They are not any good  

THREE O-LINMEN VOTED ALL-SEC

They are not any good!  

THREE OF TOP 19 O-LINEMEN N THE DRAFT FROM LSU

  They are not any good!  

JOE BURROW DOES NOT EVEN NEED PASS PROTECTION BECAUSE HE IS BETTER WITHOUT IT!

Last week you wanted to make a sig bet with me based upon what you made up rather than what I actually wrote so I can only imagine a taste of your own medicine must be a bitter pill to swallow.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2020, 08:37 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Last week you wanted to make a sig bet with me based upon what you made up rather than what I actually wrote so I can only imagine a taste of your own medicine must be a bitter pill to swallow.

O really?

You only think you thought what I knew.

[Jason_NC]

Quote:Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

How about we let them play a game or 3 before saying they have failed him already????

[samhain]

(05-09-2020, 07:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't forget Bodine.  He was a PA favorite also.

For over 20 years Alexander was a guy who never missed on a high pick and also got production out of several late round picks and undrafted free agents.

But when he went bad it got ugly quick.  That 2015 draft was not the only reason this team went off the tracks, but it is fair to say it is one of the single biggest.  And the year before we had traded up for Bodine.  Our O-line has still not recovered.

Meh on Bodine.  Cook before he was hurt was a pretty special find, though.  He was a terrific center until he became a shell of himself much earlier than we would have liked.  Braham was there under PA, too and he was a fine center.  

The end may have been a train wreck, but PA's body of work here was quite good.  He built one line that was top 5 in the league during the Palmer era, then another in the Dalton era.  He even put together a patchwork group in 09 that helped Ced Benson carry the offense that year.  His success ended when they stopped being able to run the ball for whatever reason.

[phil413]

Im late on this but:

-I aplaud the topic even if the article is sharp. The Bengals did a lot in the offseason, we should be thrilled that there's only one glaringly weak position group coming off of a 2 win year. For all the fluff peices I hear about certain parts of the OL my take is this: If all goes right and guys make big leaps, we will have an average OL. We act like injuries won't happen.

-Message boards are filled with homer/hater bias but there's nothing wrong with thinking critically about this team's improvement. We've been burned with an array of bad development, luck, drafting, whatever on the OL. Let's get past that and see what we have.

-I won't pile on about waiting in the draft. They took BPA grade players up until Kareem. You don't overdraft to fit need. Ideally you trade down a few slots, still get Kareem and swapba 6th or 7th for an overpaid vet OL. Maybe the deal wasn't there, maybe they forecasted the cuts to he worth waiting on, maybe they truly were handcuff financially in that window where they banked on a Dalton resolution. A trade didn't happen and it was a good draft, even Bailey was a great pick. No pressure on a 6th rounder to fix the OL either.

-Praising Burrow's playmaking and read ability doesn't justify being negligent with the 5 in front of him. Arguing how good or bad LSU's line was has nothing to do with those 5. That's like saying a soldier is so good that it's a complement to not give him the proper gear.

You guys have done a good job of debating if a player is enogh or not. My take is the team either isn't done or isn't realistic even if they are experts. You can project MJ and justify excuses, but let him earn it, depending on him to start isn't about us believing in his ability or salivating at saying "I told you so". Same goes for Fred Johnson, the team can like him in the 146 snaps of real action, but he is battling for a spot.

We are ONE legit starter away from not failing Burrow. XSF is a 3mil/yr platoon guard to push the youngsters. If your plan is for him to start at RG and MJ at LG, you are still one player of XSF's ability shy. If you justify Warford not being a scheme fit (though you should consider his overall talent vs eliminating him), fine give me Mike Person. I can live with letting these guys battle it out, but we have money and seemingly playing time to offer. Sign a solid vet even for one year.

I've taken shots at Hart, but his play improved and I can live with a Hart/Johnson RT battle if we had more stability at guard. That sets you guys up to scream at some of these young guys for positions they shouldn't be in. Like MJ didn't happen. My hope is that Cincy knows the market will come down and they'll sign one of the handful of descent vets to help bridge the gap for Burrow. This isn't a molehill, this is something we owe the guy that we were holding our breath over...not only that we'd get him but that he would want to be a Bengal.

[fredtoast]

Just read that the Stealer original plan for Johnson was for him to play guard. Hart could also play guard.

I have nothing against Johnson, but when we are talking about and undrafted free agent cut by another team I have to see more before I am convinced he is a legit starter.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-11-2020, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Just read that the Stealer original plan for Johnson was for him to play guard. Hart could also play guard.

I have nothing against Johnson, but when we are talking about and undrafted free agent cut by another team I have to see more before I am convinced he is a legit starter.

Tbf that other team has one of the best OL’s in the league.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-11-2020, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Just read that the Stealer original plan for Johnson was for him to play guard. Hart could also play guard.

I have nothing against Johnson, but when we are talking about and undrafted free agent cut by another team I have to see more before I am convinced he is a legit starter.

Pretty much everyone has said the same, with a few notable exceptions, about a certain 7th round draft pick cut by another team then signed and re-signed by the Bengals to play RT.

[*Synric*]

(05-11-2020, 07:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Tbf that other team has one of the best OL’s in the league.

The Squeelers also have guys like Chukwuma Okafor and Zach Banner. Sometimes a guy like Fred Johnson slips away because you have a solid core backups.

Johnson is a guy I have my eye on if the NFL ever has an offseason. He a good game and a half to finish the year but he wasn't going against TJ Watt or Myles Garrett.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(05-11-2020, 12:18 AM)phil413 Wrote: Im late on this but:

-I aplaud the topic even if the article is sharp.  The Bengals did a lot in the offseason, we should be thrilled that there's only one glaringly weak position group coming off of a 2 win year.  For all the fluff peices I hear about certain parts of the OL my take is this:  If all goes right and guys make big leaps, we will have an average OL.  We act like injuries won't happen.  

-Message boards are filled with homer/hater bias but there's nothing wrong with thinking critically about this team's improvement.  We've been burned with an array of bad development, luck, drafting, whatever on the OL.  Let's get past that and see what we have.

-I won't pile on about waiting in the draft.  They took BPA grade players up until Kareem.  You don't overdraft to fit need. Ideally you trade down a few slots, still get Kareem and swapba 6th or 7th for an overpaid vet OL.  Maybe the deal wasn't there, maybe they forecasted the cuts to he worth waiting on, maybe they truly were handcuff financially in that window where they banked on a Dalton resolution. A trade didn't happen and it was a good draft, even Bailey was a great pick.  No pressure on a 6th rounder to fix the OL either.  

-Praising Burrow's playmaking and read ability doesn't justify being negligent with the 5 in front of him.  Arguing how good or bad LSU's line was has nothing to do with those 5.  That's like saying a soldier is so good that it's a complement to not give him the proper gear.

You guys have done a good job of debating if a player is enogh or not.  My take is the team either isn't done or isn't realistic even if they are experts.  You can project MJ and justify excuses, but let him earn it, depending on him to start isn't about us believing in his ability or salivating at saying "I told you so".  Same goes for Fred Johnson, the team can like him in the 146 snaps of real action, but he is battling for a spot.  

We are ONE legit starter away from not failing Burrow.  XSF is a 3mil/yr platoon guard to push the youngsters.  If your plan is for him to start at RG and MJ at LG, you are still one player of XSF's ability shy.  If you justify Warford not being a scheme fit (though you should consider his overall talent vs eliminating him), fine give me Mike Person.  I can live with letting these guys battle it out, but we have money and seemingly playing time to offer. Sign a solid vet even for one year.  

I've taken shots at Hart, but his play improved and I can live with a Hart/Johnson RT battle if we had more stability at guard.  That sets you guys up to scream at some of these young guys for positions they shouldn't be in. Like MJ didn't happen.  My hope is that Cincy knows the market will come down and they'll sign one of the handful of descent vets to help bridge the gap for Burrow.  This isn't a molehill, this is something we owe the guy that we were holding our breath over...not only that we'd get him but that he would want to be a Bengal.

Good post. 

I think that Hopkins, Hart, and XSF have proven they are low level starter quality players. Hopkins probably the best of the bunch. There is reason to believe all of them COULD get better: Hart improved as the year went on, XSF will get his first shot as a consistent starter (59 starts career), and I think last year was Hopkins' first at C? While not great, these guys are not dumpster fires.

Jordan was a dumpster fire the first half of last year. Whether he just got better, benefitted from the scheme change, or having a competent LT next to him (Glenn/Johnson), who knows? Probably a bit of each. If we get the guy from late in the year, we could have a plus starter at LG.

Williams should be a stud. However, tackles have an adjustment period, usually.

The scary part is that our depth is either terrible (Price, Redmond), completely unproven (Adejini, Prince, Dugas, UDFAs), or almost completely unproven (Johnson). 

I'd rather add a T. Or a C. Almost the entire projected 9 lineman can/have olayed G: Jordan, XSF, Hopkins, Johnson, Price, Redmond, Adejini, and Hart.

Only 3 real OTs with pro experience. That is counting Johnson's 1 start but not Adejini (projected at G) or Prince. If something happens to Hopkins & Price has to play, we are screwed.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

I would like to add a couple points.

1) While we have SOME cap room, I think the team wants to see how Mixon/AJ shake out before commiting a lot of long term money to the line.

2) We also have a lot of guys who could be due a raise next year (Bates, Alexander, Lawson, Tupou) or could play themselves into a big contract (WJ3, Ross). Point being, I think we want to rollover some cap & have some available to trade for someone mid-season.

3) I think the coaches/FO feel pretty decent about the top 6 + Adejini. I think any additions will either be short term/medium money guys unless they are just a homerun. I do not think Warford qualifies. Before they commit big money, I think they want to see:

If Williams is a stud or not?
If Jordan is a legit starter/plus starter?
If XSF is a starter level guy?
If Johnson is a starter level RT or guard?

How that stuff gets answered will determine how/if we spend big on anoer lineman, or draft another one high next year.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2020, 07:47 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Pretty much everyone has said the same, with a few notable exceptions, about a certain 7th round draft pick cut by another team then signed and re-signed by the Bengals to play RT.

I ripped Hart as hard as anyone here until he played over a thousand snaps last year and only allowed 4.5 sacks and only 2 holding penalties.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-12-2020, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I ripped Hart as hard as anyone here until he played over a thousand snaps last year and only allowed 4.5 sacks and only 2 holding penalties.

Just curious Fred,
Where would you Rank Hart in regards to the other RT starters around the league?
Do you feel he will do a proficient or High level job at protecting Burrow and run blocking for Mixon?
Do you feel he is a possible Pro Bowl candidate going into this year?
What if he is ranked near the bottom of the league in the Top 32 RT's? Would you want the Bengals to upgrade that position or stick with Hart?

Look, I just don't want our O-Line to be an "Experiment" on if they "could" be competent enough to protect Burrow.

I like the prospects of Michael Jordan, and I feel he'll be better this year. But, he still is very young. Either way, if he improves enough to get the job done at a high level, then I don't care if he's 18 or 40. Lol

I also don't mind giving Xavier the shot at being the full time starter at left or right Guard.

I'm okay with Jonah, Hopkins and Hart currently where they stand as well.

But, I certainly wouldn't understand why the Bengals wouldn't bring in a perennial Pro Bowler off the FA heap for around $7 Mill (supposedly what Warford is wanting)??? And don't tell me they don't have the money. If they really wanted, they can make extra cap space by getting the AJ deal done which would probably save a few million this year. And, they don't HAVE to extend Mixon yet during this off season.

He instantly brings credibility to this Bengals OLine, along with Veteran leadership. He and Hopkins instantly help with their veteran leadership and I think moves things in the right direction.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2020, 08:18 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: Just curious Fred,
Where would you Rank Hart in regards to the other RT starters around the league?
Do you feel he will do a proficient or High level job at protecting Burrow and run blocking for Mixon?
Do you feel he is a possible Pro Bowl candidate going into this year?
What if he is ranked near the bottom of the league in the Top 32 RT's? Would you want the Bengals to upgrade that position or stick with Hart?

Look, I just don't want our O-Line to be an "Experiment" on if they "could" be competent enough to protect Burrow. 

I did not post stats about what Hart "might do".  I posted stats of what he actually did last year.
I want the Bengals to always be looking to upgrade EVERY position, but it simply is not possible to bring in the best players in the league at every position.  You have to balance the cost of the upgrade over the amount of the upgrade.  You can't pay 30% more or use first round picks just to improve by 10%.  

Spend the money/draft picks to fix the biggest holes.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-13-2020, 11:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I did not post stats about what Hart "might do".  I posted stats of what he actually did last year.
I want the Bengals to always be looking to upgrade EVERY position, but it simply is not possible to bring in the best players in the league at every position.  You have to balance the cost of the upgrade over the amount of the upgrade.  You can't pay 30% more or use first round picks just to improve by 10%.  

Spend the money/draft picks to fix the biggest holes.

That's great Fred. But, you didn't answer any of my questions I posed to you about the Bobby Hart or the OLine.
Why won't you answer those simple questions?
You said you gave stats? I saw your stats on Bobby Hart and are familiar with every PFF grade the OL had from last year.
And, there wasn't 1 OL that graded Average to above Average compared to the rest of the league.
I understand about your statements above. But, to not have 1 OL grading as above average, or not having 1 player playing at a Pro Bowl level on the OL scares everyone. Hence, why there's more talk about the state of the Bengals OL than any conversations on this site.

By comparison, look what NYG have been trying to do the last 2 years now. They have revamped that entire OL in order to protect their Franchise QB. Look what Cleveland just did with their 2 bookend Tackles.

But, it seems as though you are okay with Jonah the Rookie and Hart the Average RT to be the Bookends for Burrow. We'll see how everything plays out; but, I sure hope they bring in Warford to help make that OL even better for Burrow!

[GreenCornBengal]

I’d be interested in Harts pressure numbers. I believe we established in the Carl Lawson thread that sacks are misleading. Only giving up 4.5 sacks sounds good, but hey, maybe he allows pressure on every snap....

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2020, 01:06 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: That's great Fred. But, you didn't answer any of my questions I posed to you about the Bobby Hart or the OLine.
Why won't you answer those simple questions? 

I answered every one of your questions.

(05-13-2020, 01:06 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: You said you gave stats? I saw your stats on Bobby Hart and are familiar with every PFF grade the OL had from last year.
And, there wasn't 1 OL that graded Average to above Average compared to the rest of the league. 

PFF grades don't impress me.  I have seen a lot of PFF favorites struggle to get NFL teams to pay them more than league minimum.  And PFF said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than in 2015.

(05-13-2020, 01:06 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: But, it seems as though you are okay with Jonah the Rookie and Hart the Average RT to be the Bookends for Burrow. We'll see how everything plays out; but, I sure hope they bring in Warford to help make that OL even better for Burrow!

I have clearly said that we have a gaping hole at OG and would love for us to sign Warford.  Why do you think Warford would play OT for us and replace Hart?  Has he played OT in the NFL before?

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2020, 01:37 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’d be interested in Harts pressure numbers. I believe we established in the Carl Lawson thread that sacks are misleading. Only giving up 4.5 sacks sounds good, but hey, maybe he allows pressure on every snap....

I'd love to see those numbers also.  Pretty soon I will have similar numbers from Footballoutsiders yearly almanac, but right now no one here seems to have access to PFF's full stats.

Some one has commented that Hart allowed as many pressures in 2019 as 2018, but considering he played almost 100 more passing snaps that would actually indicate a big improvement.

It is hard to find many good hard stats on O-linemen.  As much as I talk about "objective stats" the fact is "sacks allowed" is kind of subjective.  Different sources will have different numbers for the same player.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-13-2020, 01:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I answered every one of your questions.




PFF grades don't impress me.  I have seen a lot of PFF favorites struggle to get NFL teams to pay them more than league minimum.  And PFF said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than in 2015.




I have clearly said that we have a gaping hole at OG and would love for us to sign Warford.  Why do you think Warford would play OT for us and replace Hart?  Has he played OT in the NFL before?

I never said to bring Warford in to replace Hart. I said to bring him in to just automatically upgrade the line with a good All Pro Veteran at one of the Guard positions. My questions about Hart were separate from that one.

And in regards to PFF grades, sorry but everyone in the football industry uses them (including NFL teams) more than any other source for their player grading. I've seen you several times say you don't like them but it seems to be only when it benefits your stance on a debate. Lol

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-13-2020, 02:35 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: I never said to bring Warford in to replace Hart. I said to bring him in to just automatically upgrade the line with a good All Pro Veteran at one of the Guard positions. My questions about Hart were separate from that one.

And in regards to PFF grades, sorry but everyone in the football industry uses them (including NFL teams) more than any other source for their player grading. I've seen you several times say you don't like them but it seems to be only when it benefits your stance on a debate. Lol

Not defending Fred, but:

1. No guarantee he upgrades the line. Does he help? I'd think so, but he's not a scheme fit to what we're currently running, thus who really knows at this point?
2. Warford isn't an All-Pro
3. No, they don't use them more than any other source.

PFF has become much more prevalent since Collinsworth jumped in on them (in 2015, when they made the grade change and hiked up the price), especially since NBC has been including them on SNF, constantly, but they absolutely are not the #1 source for player grading; that's still the team itself and they will never use an outside source as the #1 grading tool, simply because nobody knows the players like the team themselves.

And that's common sense.

In his infinite crappiness, PA was bang on the head with his (paraphrasing), "what they constitute as a pressure, may not actually be a pressure, depending on scheme during that play, assignment, etc."

What I think teams use them for is the same thing I've been mentioning that others should use them for and that is their signature stats and oline/dline numbers, as they are one of the few that do record all of this. But for their own grading system? Teams absolutely do NOT use them as their #1 source.

If that was the case, then Josh Jones would have been drafted in the top 10. Full stop.