Fan-Valuation #2 Linebacker

[BURROWorBUST]

Everybody seemed to rate the DLine as one of the better groups on our defense, and our team as a whole.

I just wanted to say that I agree, but I also want to tip my hat to the Bengals' coaching staff. I think they did a great job in 2019 of doing a studied evaluation of this team's personnel. Obviously, they saw that we couldn't stop the run. So, props to them for going out in free agency and signing DJ Reader to help stop that bleeding.

But the DLine was by far not the biggest reason we couldn't stop the run. When they went to evaluate to talent we had at LB, these are the players they had to look at:

Nick Vigil
Germaine Pratt
Preston Brown
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans
LaRoy Reynolds
Hardy Nickerson

After the evaluation, only 3 of those names remain on our roster:

Germaine Pratt
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans

Obviously, they judged this group to be a weak link, not only in stopping the run, but also in terms of covering receivers.

Signing Josh Bynes will help with the former, but they had to do something to address the latter. So they went to the draft and came back with not 1, not 2, but 3 LBs who can cover.

So, we're heading into the 2020 season with

Josh Bynes
Germaine Pratt
Logan Wilson
Akeem Davis-Gaither
Markus Bailey
Marcel Spears (UDFA)
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans

I struck through Spears, Evans and Sheldon, because I don't think they make the final 53 unless one of the other 5 goes down.

What's your evaluation of this group? I don't remember ever being this fired up about our LBs. I don't know if we'll ever see all 3 rookies on the field at the same time, but we could.

I guess my biggest question concerns Von Bell. But I'll save that for next week.

[Socal Bengals fan]

This group is obviously really raw. Luckily linebackers usually produce early much like running backs. Pratt did ok but hopefully one of the 3 will come in and do well. If healthy I’m thinking Bailey. He had the best tape of all 3 rookies but unfortunately he’s coming back from acl injury. I watched Wilson today and once again I cane away unimpressed. He’s run defense kinda sucks. He gets blocked pretty damn easy he’s definitely not the most physical player out there. AGD is really fast but is definitely a weak side backer. I still don’t think linebacking will be our strong group anytime soon but you never know.

[Fullrock]

They have infused the LB corps with much needed speed and guys who can cover RB's and TE's. The Bynes signing was huge in order to have a veteran presence who showed last year he can still play at a high level. With all the youth, you probably can't call this group a strength yet, but it's obviously a huge improvement, and I don't see it being a glaring weakness either. Also, the group has obvious upside, so it's probably a situation where we see improvement throughout the season.

[*bengalfan74*]

I really like the retooling of the LBer corps. We've suffered thru several years of that being the achilles heel of our D. Whether or not it's totally fixed remains to be seen ? But I feel they've taken some giant strides in the right direction.

[Yojimbo]

I'm excited about the future of Pratt. He really progressed through the second half of the season and got better with each game. I'm also pretty excited about Wilson. Those two guys will be the foundation of the LB corps for the next 5-7 years. Both can cover, both can tackle, both can call a defense and can flip between middle and weak side.

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-04-2020, 09:19 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I really like the retooling of the LBer corps. We've suffered thru several years of that being the achilles heel of our D. Whether or not it's totally fixed remains to be seen ? But I feel they've taken some giant strides in the right direction.

That's what I'm thinking. We've been bad at that position for years, and it used to frustrate the hell out of me that Marvin never addressed in in any significant way.  Well, let me take that back. He did try, but it was always 1 guy at a time. And the one LB they'd draft turned out to be pretty awful (Dawson, Jefferson, NICKERSON, and the list goes on ). Maybe Zac is taking a shotgun approach. One of these guys has to be worth a damn. I see alot of promise. 

[BURROWorBUST]

From this article in The Athletic.

‘This is crazy’: Inside how Bengals plotted, executed a massive roster overhaul
Paul Dehner Jr.

Quote:“You have to find ways to beat Baltimore and K.C.,” Radicevic said. “You’ve got to have guys that can run and tackle on the outside and that was, obviously, a big weakness for us last year.”

One of the first conclusions was the free-agent group and draft classes at linebacker didn’t line up. Free agency looked scarce but Potts and the college side saw something completely different.

“We really, really liked the depth of the linebacker position this draft,” Potts said. “I know a lot was made about how deep the receiver position was in this draft but I can argue there may have been close to if not more linebackers that we felt could come in and help us and play significant snaps for us at the linebacker position as compared to some other spots. I thought it was one of the deeper spots in the draft. You set price tags on everyone throughout free agency and have guys that you target and you let things play out. You aren’t going to overpay for a certain guy that you can address that same position in the draft.”

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-04-2020, 11:39 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: From this article in The Athletic.

‘This is crazy’: Inside how Bengals plotted, executed a massive roster overhaul
Paul Dehner Jr.

More:

Quote:The Bengals liked all three linebackers that went off the board in the first round (Texas Tech’s Jordyn Brooks, LSU’s Patrick Queen and Oklahoma’s Kenneth Murray) and could have selected Georgia tackle Isaiah Wilson, but with their obvious need at linebacker unfulfilled, they had an eye on the top of the third.

It ended up being Wyoming’s Logan Wilson thanks to one of the tensest rounds in recent memory.
“You’ve got your 10 guys mapped out as you come through the second round,” Taylor said. “But you aren’t even counting Logan at that point. We shouldn’t even be discussing him. He’s going to be gone.”
Yet, as their No. 65 pick got closer and he was there, discussions kicked up about how to secure a target they had graded so much higher at a position of need.
“We thought Logan had a really, really strong chance of going somewhere in the second round,” Potts said. “Maybe even early to mid-second round. So we were, just being honest, I can’t speak for everyone else — I was nervous the whole second round as picks started to go off the board and he was still there.”
They knew a grouping of teams were in the linebacker market, most notably Kansas City. When the Chiefs selected Mississippi State’s Willie Gay, the staff thought it might make it with only Seattle left to pick. The Seahawks already snagged Brooks in the first, so it seemed the Bengals might be in the clear.
Then, a trade was announced. Carolina came up. The Panthers had just lost Luke Kuechly to retirement.
“Everybody was pretty bummed out,” Potts said.
The Panthers ended up taking Southern Illinois safety Jeremy Chinn.
“There was a loud combination of exhale and cheers on the Zoom conference call,” Potts said.
When Akeem Davis-Gaither of Appalachian State and seventh-rounder Markus Bailey of Purdue ended up falling below the Bengals’ grades, it seemed the strategy of favoring free agency versus the draft in overhauling the defense played out to perfection.
“With (the) free agency thing, we were talking about Schobert, we were talking about Martinez — not to put Wilson in that category — but in my opinion, he’s faster than those guys, a better athlete, cover player than those guys and those guys all got 10-plus (million),” Radicevic said of their lucrative deals with the Jaguars and Giants. “So, everybody is all pissed off because we didn’t sign a linebacker in free agency but, in my opinion, we ended up drafting one that’s going to be better.”
As opposed to spending that much money on a linebacker, they drafted Wilson using the money on Alexander and Bell in the secondary.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-04-2020, 11:58 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: More:

This has memories of the feedback we heard about when the Bengals took Jake Fisher. They said they were completely surprised to see him available with their 2nd round pick, as they had him rated much higher.

I really hope Wilson pans out better than Fisher did.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Agree with the top 5, but think we could keep six, especially if we want more 3-4 looks this year.

And 1 will land on the practice squad.

In terms of the 53, here is the min # I think we keep by position: QB = 2, RB = 3, WR = 6, TE = 4, OL = 8, DL = 8, LB = 5, CB = 5, S = 4, PK = 1, P = 1, LS = 1.

That is 48. 5 spots left. I think RB#4 and DL#9 are probable. Even so, got 3 more spaces. OL#9, WR#7, CB#6, LB#6 all in the mix. Only 1 gets left out. Don't think QB#3 or TE#5 is very likely.

I think Evans & the guy we picked up on waivers (Calitro) have a shot for LB#6. The UFAs have an outside shot. IDK on Calitro, but the others seem to play different roles: SAM, edge, and WILL.

[*pally*]

I said this in one of the draft threads, but in watching Zac's post pick press conferences, it was very obvious the pick he was happiest with was Logan Wilson. He was pleased with the whole draft but he was practically gushing in excitement over Wilson.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

I think it will still be the weak link of the defense, but hopefully much improved from last years 2-14 team. So many young players. People are really banking on 3 rookies and a second year player.

[McC]

(05-04-2020, 01:10 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think it will still be the weak link of the defense, but hopefully much improved from last years 2-14 team. So many young players. People are really banking on 3 rookies and a second year player.

Fortunately, it is possible for rookie LB's to have immediate success.

[SladeX]

Looks like Wilson is ultimately plan B as opposed to a highly rated FA LB, but with more long term upside.

This is the most anticipated preseason (by me) I can remember in quite some time. Over 20 years I'd say.

[Hammerstripes]

(05-04-2020, 01:10 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think it will still be the weak link of the defense, but hopefully much improved from last years 2-14 team. So many young players. People are really banking on 3 rookies and a second year player.

That's not really saying much considering the talent in the other areas:

Reader, Atkins, Dunlap, Lawson, Hubbard are a pretty good set of D-linemen

WJ3, Waynes, Alexander, Bell, Bates and Williams are a pretty good secondary.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Who the hell is Brady Sheldon?

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-04-2020, 01:10 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think it will still be the weak link of the defense, but hopefully much improved from last years 2-14 team. So many young players. People are really banking on 3 rookies and a second year player.

Given the strength of the other 2 (DLine and Secondary), it might not be the strongest, but I don't think it will be a "weak link." It's football, and all 3 of the guys we drafted play their positions at a very high level. I get that it's the NFL, and there's going to be an adjustment period. But we've been such trash in that position area for so long, I'm confident that we'll see some degree of immediate improvement. 

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-04-2020, 04:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who the hell is Brady Sheldon?

LOL. Exactly!!! 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-04-2020, 03:22 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: Everybody seemed to rate the DLine as one of the better groups on our defense, and our team as a whole.

I just wanted to say that I agree, but I also want to tip my hat to the Bengals' coaching staff. I think they did a great job in 2019 of doing a studied evaluation of this team's personnel. Obviously, they saw that we couldn't stop the run. So, props to them for going out in free agency and signing DJ Reader to help stop that bleeding.

But the DLine was by far not the biggest reason we couldn't stop the run. When they went to evaluate to talent we had at LB, these are the players they had to look at:  

Nick Vigil
Germaine Pratt
Preston Brown
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans
LaRoy Reynolds
Hardy Nickerson

After the evaluation, only 3 of those names remain on our roster:

Germaine Pratt
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans

Obviously, they judged this group to be a weak link, not only in stopping the run, but also in terms of covering receivers.

Signing Josh Bynes will help with the former, but they had to do something to address the latter. So they went to the draft and came back with not 1, not 2, but 3 LBs who can cover.

So, we're heading into the 2020 season with

Josh Bynes
Germaine Pratt
Logan Wilson
Akeem Davis-Gaither
Markus Bailey
Marcel Spears (UDFA)
Brady Sheldon
Jordan Evans

I struck through Spears, Evans and Sheldon, because I don't think they make the final 53 unless one of the other 5 goes down.

What's your evaluation of this group? I don't remember ever being this fired up about our LBs. I don't know if we'll ever see all 3 rookies on the field at the same time, but we could.

I guess my biggest question concerns Von Bell. But I'll save that for next week.

I think they improved the LB room big time Shady. Well done.

Out of those five you have at the top of the list I love 4 of their upsides. Pratt was my second favorite LB in last years Draft.

I had Wilson and ADG rated about the 3rd and 4th round just cause of the small school status and the fact ADG is a really light
Outside Linebacker. Wilson is a do it all 3 down backer and Bailey just pops off the screen in his highlights. Reminds me a lot of 
the guy you put highlights of in the Draft forum, Justin Strnad who was drafted earlier than Bailey.

I do believe Evans makes it as the last guy.

I just don't think Marvin was very good with evaluating Linebackers, like much at all.

The undrafted guys were his best grabs, besides Odell who didn't last long.

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-04-2020, 08:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think they improved the LB room big time Shady. Well done.

Out of those five you have at the top of the list I love 4 of their upsides. Pratt was my second favorite LB in last years Draft.

I had Wilson and ADG rated about the 3rd and 4th round just cause of the small school status and the fact ADG is a really light
Outside Linebacker. Wilson is a do it all 3 down backer and Bailey just pops off the screen in his highlights. Reminds me a lot of 
the guy you put highlights of in the Draft forum, Justin Strnad who was drafted earlier than Bailey.

I do believe Evans makes it as the last guy.

I just don't think Marvin was very good with evaluating Linebackers, like much at all.

The undrafted guys were his best grabs, besides Odell who didn't last long.

I wasn't really ranking them, but the first 5 look like a combo of #years in NFL an d then the draft order. 

I honestly wouldn't even try ranking all of the guys. Sometimes it's apples to oranges. They're different kinds of guys, and they'll be in different spots on the field. We'll see how it shakes out. I think our d is going to be wildly unpredictable for opposing offenses this year. So many different looks! I think we have to wonder what Von Bell's role is going to be with Davis-Gaither and Bailey playing the outside. Lots of options.

Bottom line, as you said, we got better.