Johnson LT Williams RT ?

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2020, 12:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Sheehan misses the point of his own article. As someone in that comment thread said.

The point is that defenses move their best rushers around to go against weaker tackles. If you put your best tackle at LT, then Bosa lines up over RT. If you put your best OT at RT, Bosa lines up over LT.

Rep.

Even when he is listing great pass rushers who take snaps against the RT he clearly stated that many of them took snaps on both sides.

BTW I don't mean to sound like I am a Johnson hater.  I'd love it if he turned out to a great find.  The odds just seem really long.

Getting a shot to play was no big honor.  We had two starting LTs who should not even have been in the league (Smith, Jerry) and another LT who did not want to play and we knew he would be gone after the season (Glenn), and even though Mike Jordan may develop into a good NFL starter he looked terrible last year.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-07-2020, 12:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Williams played both LT and RT in the past.  He is proven at both in the past.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make.

His most recent play time, reps, practice, training, etc., is for LT; why move him to RT?

If you needed it in a pinch or an emergency sitch, absolutely, but if there's no one blocking him and no one in the way, why move someone for no reason? Like the whole moving Whitworth to LG and bench Boling so you can play Collins (who was a worse LT than Boling a LG); why move something if someone is accustomed and prepared to doing things a certain way?

Take my job; in the past, I deposited cheques and did registered account transfers; I still have the knowledge and the skills to do so, but all of my training, practice and actual day-to-day work, is now in a lending and client-relations role. I can absolutely go back to what I did in the past, but why?

Same thing here; he played RT last, a minimum of 2/3 years ago. Why move Williams because Fred Johnson MIGHT be good enough at LT, especially since he never played LT before the last 2 games last year?

That's all.

[McC]

(05-07-2020, 12:31 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I went back and watched full game highlights of the Dolphins and second Browns games, where Fred Johnson played a lot. I really wanted to like him. I still don't see what the big deal is. He looks solid in some one on one match ups against guys who are nobody in particular and frankly aren't playing that hard. I mean in the Browns game especially you see some really uninspired football. It's not like he blanked Myles Garrett in that game. In fact I'm seeing a guy who'd get eaten alive by Garrett.

I hope i'm wrong, but I just think there is a lot of wishful thinking about Johnson and our OL in general. We've seen that wishful thinking before and it gets QBs killed.

So you thinking dogging it in the NFL is a good way to stay there?  Especially for guys who are fringe players?  You think that guys who are maybe barely hanging on are apt to give it less than their all, that their path to staying in the league is to not go all out?  That would be an interesting business decision.

"I'll half ass it when I get my chance to play and they'll be sure to keep me around."  Out of the box thinking, to be sure.

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-07-2020, 12:31 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I went back and watched full game highlights of the Dolphins and second Browns games, where Fred Johnson played a lot. I really wanted to like him. I still don't see what the big deal is. He looks solid in some one on one match ups against guys who are nobody in particular and frankly aren't playing that hard. I mean in the Browns game especially you see some really uninspired football. It's not like he blanked Myles Garrett in that game. In fact I'm seeing a guy who'd get eaten alive by Garrett.

I hope i'm wrong, but I just think there is a lot of wishful thinking about Johnson and our OL in general. We've seen that wishful thinking before and it gets QBs killed.

Totally agree with this. I'm not sure if it's just because we 'stole' him from the Steelers, but I'm not in Fred Johnsons corner... yet.

Hope he turns out to be everything and more that people think he is lol

[*psychdoctor*]

Before anyone is declared a position, maybe they ought to actually play together as a unit to determine best fit.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2020, 10:51 AM)Au165 Wrote: On paper it's not a horrible idea. The idea that the sum of the whole is larger than the parts of the sum makes sense. If the team is absolutely enamored with Fred Johnson then maybe it makes sense, but I think a lot will come down to camp. If your best Tackles are Jonah and Johnson you find a way to get them both on the field. I think rather than assuming Jonah would kick to RT you try them both at both positions and take the best setup into games.

This is what I think should be the plan, it sounds like everyone really likes FJ. I never got to see him play but I heard he 
played well and is really big. Sounds more like a RT to me but I like the plan of trying both at both positions and see what
works best. I know that Jonah wants to play LT but can Fred play RT is my question? I know nothing about the guy and it
is not like Hart sucks as bad as some people say.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-07-2020, 01:07 PM)McC Wrote: So you thinking dogging it in the NFL is a good way to stay there?  Especially for guys who are fringe players?  You think that guys who are maybe barely hanging on are apt to give it less than their all, that their path to staying in the league is to not go all out?  That would be an interesting business decision.

"I'll half ass it when I get my chance to play and they'll be sure to keep me around."  Out of the box thinking, to be sure.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I just said the Browns had guys who weren't playing hard in the last game of the year and I guess you're saying that's just impossible? 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-07-2020, 12:57 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: His most recent play time, reps, practice, training, etc., is for LT; why move him to RT?

If you needed it in a pinch or an emergency sitch, absolutely, but if there's no one blocking him and no one in the way, why move someone for no reason? Like the whole moving Whitworth to LG and bench Boling so you can play Collins (who was a worse LT than Boling a LG); why move something if someone is accustomed and prepared to doing things a certain way?

Take my job; in the past, I deposited cheques and did registered account transfers; I still have the knowledge and the skills to do so, but all of my training, practice and actual day-to-day work, is now in a lending and client-relations role. I can absolutely go back to what I did in the past, but why?

Same thing here; he played RT last, a minimum of 2/3 years ago. Why move Williams because Fred Johnson MIGHT be good enough at LT, especially since he never played LT before the last 2 games last year?

That's all.

1) He's not proven in the NFL, yet.

2) He has the ability to play both sides.

3) I wouldn't move him to RT unless there was a better option at LT or Joe Burrow suddenly started throwing left handed.

[McC]

(05-07-2020, 02:03 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about. I just said the Browns had guys who weren't playing hard in the last game of the year and I guess you're saying that's just impossible? 

Seriously?  I'm not sure how it could be much clearer.  Not playing hard is a sure ticket out of the league, first game, last game, every game in between, not to mention the best way to get injured.


Is that clear enough?

[*ochocincos*]

(05-07-2020, 11:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So who has access to PFF or a link to any sources for "pressures" or "hurries" allowed by O-linemen.

I have seen some people quote them so I know someone has them.

All I can find on O-linemen is "penalties" and "sacks allowed".

I pay for PFF Edge, but not Elite, so I cannot see those 

[YorkshireBengal]

Question here for someone who doesn't quite fully understand this. Is a different skillset required to play LT compared to RT? I get that the LT protects the QBs blindside which gives it the edge in terms of importance, but are different skills/attributes required for each position?

Then a follow up question, based on the above questions, do you think Jonah Williams would make a better LT or RT.

[*Synric*]

(05-10-2020, 11:48 AM)YorkshireBengal Wrote: Question here for someone who doesn't quite fully understand this. Is a different skillset required to play LT compared to RT? I get that the LT protects the QBs blindside which gives it the edge in terms of importance, but are different skills/attributes required for each position?

Then a follow up question, based on the above questions, do you think Jonah Williams would make a better LT or RT.

No. The only difference in today's NFL is footwork and that just takes time to get the muscle memory down. Even the blindside being "more important" is less of an arguement with teams using more shotgun, zone blocking, and spread offenses.

It doesnt matter if Jonah plays Left or Right tackle what matters is having TWO tackles that can hold up.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-10-2020, 11:48 AM)YorkshireBengal Wrote: Question here for someone who doesn't quite fully understand this. Is a different skillset required to play LT compared to RT? I get that the LT protects the QBs blindside which gives it the edge in terms of importance, but are different skills/attributes required for each position?

Then a follow up question, based on the above questions, do you think Jonah Williams would make a better LT or RT.

Ok, so the majority of QBs are right-handed (as you know), thus indeed, their blind side is to the left, due to arm angle when throwing the ball; this is a given due to physics and the like.

Now that the obvious is out of the way, before Lineman became HUGE and fast enough to protect the blind side, they were always smaller, thus you could put a big strong guy on the left side and they could just maul the LT back into the QB. Then, the league got bigger at LT and thus negated this. Then, Lawrence Taylor happened...

L.T. was blindingly-fast, but also had the strength of a guy 2+ inches taller and 40-50 pounds heavier than him; he single-handedly changed the pass-rush strategy around the league, as the Giants would line him up on the right side, due to being the blind side.

The league simply couldn't keep up, but there was one team who had a LT that was big-enough to handle the bigger guys, but fast-enough to deal with players like L.T.; Anthony Munoz, of course.

Munoz was truly the first modern LT that ever played in the league and that's why he was SO good; he literally was head and shoulders above the rest of the league, ability-wise and that's why teams are looking for LTs that have the same size/speed combination that Munoz had.

As the game was very run-oriented, you had your bigger, more-plodding OT at RT along with a blocking TE in order to run to the, "strong side."

That's why there was a major importance put on the Left Tackle position, for so long. Fast-forward nowadays and things aren't shoehorned into one or two schemes anymore; everyone is looking to exploit weaknesses and vulnerabilities, thus the best pass rusher no longer sits on the blind side and as such, you need a RT as good as your LT, basically.

For your prototypes, Jonah is the better LT and Fred, the RT... but Jonah was the best OT coming out of college last year and probably would've been the first to come out this year as well AND you drafted him to play that position.

Thus, stick the guy at LT.

Sorry for the history lesson, but background is necessary :)

The Blind Side (the book), basically says what I said above in greater detail and has good background behind the oline concepts/schemes/etc.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-07-2020, 10:40 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's some food for thought

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/hear-us-out-jonah-williams-at-right-tackle-and-fred-johnson-at-left-tackle/ar-BB13JGOy?ocid=spartandhp

It kind of contradicts itself by saying how Fred Johnson hasn't played RT in so long that he would be better at LT where he got two starts, and yet Williams hasn't started at RT in over 4 years, either.

The article makes some valid points about the importance of the RT position as it relates to pass protection, but the RT is also traditionally more of a mauler in the running game.  

I think Johnson's mere presence will get the most out of Hart, and he is an extremely valuable backup that could continue to push for starting positions on the line.  I can't help but think that the right side of the line might be best served with Hart at RT and Johnson at RG.  I hope he gets a strong look there and competes with XSF.  

[*SHRacerX*]

Much like the offensive line looked suddenly pretty good when Jeff Blake took over for Klingler, I can't help but wonder how much better the line will look due to Burrow's vision, mobility, and his ability to rapidly diagnose and pull the trigger.

I know, he is a college kid taking over for an NFL veteran. But look around the league....how many of the top QBs are pocket passers? It wasn't like Dalton was immobile, but predictable, which lead to a lot of rollouts to his right and a lot of batted balls.

I think the line will end up as follows:

Williams - Jordan - Hopkins - XSF - Hart

And Johnson will be the first guy off the bench. I would love to see him push out Hart or XSF if he is clearly a better option, and maybe we get lucky with Adeniji or Price is 100% healthy and makes a big return (very doubtful).

Burrow will make all of them better for the reasons I listed above. Having his full complement of weapons out there will keep the safeties back and open up the rushing attack as well. I seriously doubt they have Burrow throwing 50 times in his first start.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

On the topic of the OL, I encourage people to watch Matt Minnich's breakdown of our OL last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iktDzo5XM98

It's from January, but I just recently watched it, and took away a few things:

1. Trey Hopkins was our only good lineman last year. And he's really good.
2. Hart was mostly bad early, but settled down. I wish we had something better, but he's not as bad as you might think. In the prime of his career, let's call him average.
3. Fred Johnson did nothing special. I guess the hype is that "transplanted college guard was better than Jerry and at least as good as Glenn, when he gets reps his arrow will shoot way up." Frankly i'm not banking much on that.
4. Billy Price wasn't a total embarrassment at guard. I think he's fine as a backup.
5. Redmond doesn't get much screen time in this video but when he does he's horrible. Still scratching my head over the fact that we tendered him. Somehow, he's still only 25 so maybe that's why.
6. To Racer's point above, there are plenty of plays where (even if Minnich only hints at it) you think sure that's a muddy pocket, but imagine what Burrow throwing to Green and company does in that situation. The "sometimes QBs making OLs look better" narrative starts to take shape and gives on hope. With that said, having a mobile QB isn't an excuse for neglecting the OL, and we shouldn't.
7. In some cases the OL looking bad was Drew Sample being a rookie. In the Jax game Calais Campbell just blew him up a few times. And I can't pin that all on Sample - he's a kid and wasn't up to the task this early in his career. Campbell is a beast. Let's remember, when we failed to trade up for an OL in the 2019 draft, we pivoted by trading down for Sample, figuring a great blocking TE was the next best thing to a better OT. And while I'm as critical of the Sample pick as anybody, I do think he'll make a fine blocking TE in the NFL (which is not worth a 2nd round pick but I digress).
8. I'm still bullish on Mike Jordan. Athletic, big, and smart, but I wish he was a better finisher. Guys slip off his blocks a lot. Maybe that will come as his body develops into an NFL body and he gains confidence.

With all that said, there's reason to believe our OL MIGHT be solid. But there are so many IFs in that it makes you nervous. I mean we *did* have a plan going into last year (first round pick at LT, Cordy Glenn at LG, solid NFL veteran at RG, etc) and look how fast it fell apart.

[ezekiel23]

I think it is a good thing that the coaching staff should be open-minded about this O-line situation.Sure,Play them all at different positions and see what you have,or what line-up,or position works best.It doesn’t hurt to experiment.I personally think there is a bright future ahead for these two Tackles.Speaking of Williams and Johnson.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-10-2020, 12:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Ok, so the majority of QBs are right-handed (as you know), thus indeed, their blind side is to the left, due to arm angle when throwing the ball; this is a given due to physics and the like.

Now that the obvious is out of the way, before Lineman became HUGE and fast enough to protect the blind side, they were always smaller, thus you could put a big strong guy on the left side and they could just maul the LT back into the QB. Then, the league got bigger at LT and thus negated this. Then, Lawrence Taylor happened...

L.T. was blindingly-fast, but also had the strength of a guy 2+ inches taller and 40-50 pounds heavier than him; he single-handedly changed the pass-rush strategy around the league, as the Giants would line him up on the right side, due to being the blind side.

The league simply couldn't keep up, but there was one team who had a LT that was big-enough to handle the bigger guys, but fast-enough to deal with players like L.T.; Anthony Munoz, of course.

Munoz was truly the first modern LT that ever played in the league and that's why he was SO good; he literally was head and shoulders above the rest of the league, ability-wise and that's why teams are looking for LTs that have the same size/speed combination that Munoz had.

As the game was very run-oriented, you had your bigger, more-plodding OT at RT along with a blocking TE in order to run to the, "strong side."

That's why there was a major importance put on the Left Tackle position, for so long. Fast-forward nowadays and things aren't shoehorned into one or two schemes anymore; everyone is looking to exploit weaknesses and vulnerabilities, thus the best pass rusher no longer sits on the blind side and as such, you need a RT as good as your LT, basically.

For your prototypes, Jonah is the better LT and Fred, the RT... but Jonah was the best OT coming out of college last year and probably would've been the first to come out this year as well AND you drafted him to play that position.

Thus, stick the guy at LT.

Sorry for the history lesson, but background is necessary :)

The Blind Side (the book), basically says what I said above in greater detail and has good background behind the oline concepts/schemes/etc.

RUN THE DANG BALL!

Sorry. The Blind Side reference made me think of a favorite movie quote.

[Jhowdy54]

All I know is we're facing Joey Bosa week 1 and Myles Garrett week 2 on a short week. Need the best combo tackles to give Burrow a reasonable chance to succeed.

[BengalChris]

(05-07-2020, 10:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lets start a new tradition.

2019 started a LT who was so bad playing RT he got cut by another team.

2020 do the same with Johnson.

What could possibly go wrong?  Johnson looked decent against two teams that ranked 20th and DEAD LAST in sacks last year.  That means he will dominate just like Christian Westerman did after looking good in one meaningless game.

Hey, the starting RT last season was also cut by another team. Just saying.