Turner on the O-line

[Circleville Guy]

(05-22-2020, 02:53 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: No, for 2 reasons:

1. I'm not cynical in the slightest.
2. TRULY, 3 spots are complete unknowns, 2 if Hart starts at RT.

Jonah could come in day 1 and literally be a top 5 LT in the league (and I sure as hell hope so, but we'll see) and Fred could halve all of Hart's pressure and penalty numbers, while being a better run blocker.

X-man is another guy whom we don't know how things will shake up; if we go for the proven 2 (3 if Hart starts), then I would say yes, bottom 3rd in the league, but as they stand right now, they are a wildcard.

I just like to see good results from a player before I pencil him in for good future results. Potential is a good thing but it doesn’t always materialize. The team has been sky high on MJ and he does have potential to get better. That doesn’t mean that he will.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-22-2020, 03:20 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Its one of the worst olines in the league. I saw improvement but it wasn't a big improvement like people are claiming. Mixon was still getting a meager 3ypc, and Andy was still under duress most of the time. 

But it's not and the numbers back it up.

They go 8 games being the worst, to 8 games being top 10, plus *3* positions will be different (2 if Hart starts) than the previous year.

It is, like I said above, a complete unknown; 4.6 YPC is absolutely not, "a meager 3 YPC."

(05-22-2020, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the final 8 games the Bengals were n the top half of the league in yards per carry and Mixon averaged over 4.6.

In rushing yards we went from 32nd in the first 8 games to 6th over the final 8 games.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-22-2020, 04:05 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I just like to see good results from a player before I pencil him in for good future results. Potential is a good thing but it doesn’t always materialize. The team has been sky high on MJ and he does have potential to get better. That doesn’t mean that he will.

Absolutely correct.

I just think that with so much turnover and, literally the 2nd worst spot on the line being shored up, we will see a much-improved oline.

With MJ's improvement over the 2nd half, it also puts it into complete unknown territory: did he improve because he got better or did he improve because he had better LTs next to him and a different scheme?

If all 5 or 4 of the 5 spots remained from last year, I'd be with you saying this is a bad line... but we just don't know yet.

[Circleville Guy]

(05-22-2020, 03:20 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Its one of the worst olines in the league. I saw improvement but it wasn't a big improvement like people are claiming. Mixon was still getting a meager 3ypc, and Andy was still under duress most of the time. 

If I remember right, they had some decent games against mostly teams that had very bad defenses. The roster should be better than last years but they should in no way approach it like they have a very solid line and that is their attitude with the line. Things would look a lot better if they would add a proven, above average Guard. He has potential and he should improve is just a very iffy game plan.

[fredtoast]

There is always hope.

Look at the guys who started for us in 2009.

Center Kyle Cook (16 starts)……....undrafted free agent with zero career starts
Guard Evan Mathis (7 starts)……...cut by two teams in the previous two seasons.
Guard Nate Livings (9 starts)……...undrafted free agent with 6 career starts
Tackle Dennis Roland (12 starts)...undrafted free agent with 1 career start


At least we had solid vets in Whitworth and Bobbie Williams. But that line looked like a disaster going into the season.

[Circleville Guy]

(05-22-2020, 04:08 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Absolutely correct.

I just think that with so much turnover and, literally the 2nd worst spot on the line being shored up, we will see a much-improved oline.

With MJ's improvement over the 2nd half, it also puts it into complete unknown territory: did he improve because he got better or did he improve because he had better LTs next to him and a different scheme?

If all 5 or 4 of the 5 spots remained from last year, I'd be with you saying this is a bad line... but we just don't know yet.

Very true. They are going with the “we hope” approach vs. bringing in a solid and proven vet. I hope too because the teams record will probably be determined in a big part by how this unknown will work out. These unknowns are protecting the unknown of a rookie QB and there’s the unknown of the health of the Star WR too. Everything could click immediately but those odds are Probably higher behind more proven players.

[Circleville Guy]

(05-22-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is always hope.

Look at the guys who started for us in 2009.

Center Kyle Cook (16 starts)……....undrafted free agent with zero career starts
Guard Evan Mathis (7 starts)……...cut by two teams in the previous two seasons.
Guard Nate Livings (9 starts)……...undrafted free agent with 6 career starts
Tackle Dennis Roland (12 starts)...undrafted free agent with 1 career start


At least we had solid vets in Whitworth and Bobbie Williams. But that line looked like a disaster going into the season.

That’s the thing though, you’ve got 2 established and above average players. This years team will have an established, average center and an established, below average Tackle. They do have a former, first round tackle coming in but he isn’t established yet either. They have no established, above average players.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-22-2020, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the final 8 games the Bengals were n the top half of the league in yards per carry and Mixon averaged over 4.6.

In rushing yards we went from 32nd in the first 8 games to 6th over the final 8 games.

This is not just improvement, this is big time improvement.

And this is without Jonah Williams or XSF and MJ having his rookie season and NFL starts under his belt.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-22-2020, 04:40 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: That’s the thing though, you’ve got 2 established and above average players. This years team will have an established, average center and an established, below average Tackle. They do have a former, first round tackle coming in but he isn’t established yet either. They have no established, above average players.

I would not put Boobie Williams in 2009 as above average.. he was 33 his best days were behind him.. he was not bad at that point but not above average.. the key to the line will be Williams.. if he pans out first year playing it will have bring a cohesiveness to the rest of the line which is still young and can improve...

[Circleville Guy]

(05-23-2020, 02:40 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would not put Boobie Williams in 2009 as above average.. he was 33 his best days were behind him.. he was not bad at that point but not above average.. the key to the line will be Williams.. if he pans out first year playing it will have bring a cohesiveness to the rest of the line which is still young and can improve...

The whole point is trying to lessen that if word that you used. Adding proven players lessens the if’s. 33 is on the downward side of the hill. He was playing every game and still playing well. I would guess that he graded well up until he was 35 or 36. AJ Green will be 32. What are your thoughts on how he will play?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2020, 06:12 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: The whole point is trying to lesson that if word that you used. Adding proven players lessens the if’s. 33 in on the downward side of the hill. He was playing every game and still playing well. I would guess that he graded well in until he was 35 or 36. AJ Green will be 32. What are your thoughts on how he will play?

Those are just more ifs, sure I would of liked to bring in Trent Williams but who is to say he gets injured or acts up...

Even proven vets in FA are ifs especially if they are older. At least we got guys in their prime this Free Agency.

There are ifs everywhere and you can only do so much in one Offseason. 

Need to see the players we already have here improve.

[Circleville Guy]

(05-23-2020, 06:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Those are just more ifs, sure I would of liked to bring in Trent Williams but who is to say he gets injured or acts up...

Even proven vets in FA are ifs especially if they are older. At least we got guys in their prime this Free Agency.

There are ifs everywhere and you can only do so much in one Offseason. 

Need to see the players we already have here improve.

I’m not knocking the guys that they added in free agency, it was fantastic to see. They still had time to do even more via a trade or free agency. There’s still money to do even more. The overall roster should be better just from running off some of the guys they did, Obviously, every player is an if but an established starter is less of an if. I do think that Williams will be a good player but as we know, it’s not a given. You should want as few if’s as possible with the group that’s assigned to protect the guy that was drafted to be the face of the team for the next decade. I know that you think that I moan and complain a lot. I am appreciative of the many positive things that the organization has done this offseason. I’m just greedy. I see them going in 90% this offseason as compared to their normal 40% and the line still could be better and the money is there. I want that 100%. Going the extra mile to build a championship organization is my expectation. Champions are normally never content.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-23-2020, 06:41 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’m not knocking the guys that they added in free agency, it was fantastic to see. They still had time to do even more via a trade or free agency. There’s still money to do even more. The overall roster should be better just from running off some of the guys they did, Obviously, every player is an if but an established starter is less of an if. I do think that Williams will be a good player but as we know, it’s not a given. You should want as few if’s as possible with the group that’s assigned to protect the guy that was drafted to be the face of the team for the next decade. I know that you think that I moan and complain a lot. I am appreciative of the many positive things that the organization has done this offseason. I’m just greedy. I see them going in 90% this offseason as compared to their normal 40% and the line still could be better and the money is there. I want that 100%. Going the extra mile to build a championship organization is my expectation. Champions are normally never content.

So do you see the Patriots, Green Bay, New Orleans going the extra mile?? I could add many more teams... future contracts and building from within does come into play

[Circleville Guy]

(05-23-2020, 07:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So do you see the Patriots, Green Bay, New Orleans going the extra mile?? I could add many more teams... future contracts and building from within does come into play

I totally agree on future contracts and building from within. There are also things going on behind the scenes that we don’t get to see. Are you suggesting that the money is being held for future contracts? I’m just not crazy about developing multiple players on the line at the same time as developing your franchise QB. I know that the effort from the organization has been very good this offseason. There’s really only 2 things this offseason that I didn’t agree with and that’s usually about 10 or more. It has been a really good offseason. This is more about conversation than complaining.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2020, 06:41 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’m not knocking the guys that they added in free agency, it was fantastic to see. They still had time to do even more via a trade or free agency. There’s still money to do even more. The overall roster should be better just from running off some of the guys they did, Obviously, every player is an if but an established starter is less of an if. I do think that Williams will be a good player but as we know, it’s not a given. You should want as few if’s as possible with the group that’s assigned to protect the guy that was drafted to be the face of the team for the next decade. I know that you think that I moan and complain a lot. I am appreciative of the many positive things that the organization has done this offseason. I’m just greedy. I see them going in 90% this offseason as compared to their normal 40% and the line still could be better and the money is there. I want that 100%. Going the extra mile to build a championship organization is my expectation. Champions are normally never content.

Good post, I completely understand. But in the end the best teams coach up what they have and that even means late rounders
and UDFA's. Sure, we had Munoz and that great O-line back in the day but that team got coached up from a crappy team into a 
good to great team in one year. Hopkins is an UDFA and became a good Center for us last year.

I take this as a good sign as sometimes as you know just drafting a player early like Ogbuehi or Price is not always the answer.

I want to see Turner coach up MJ which I could see happening honestly. He was only a rookie last season and improved. Adeniji
I really like with his brain, leadership, long arms, feet and size. This guy could be special. XSF was a 33rd overall pick just like Tee.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-22-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Tackle Dennis Roland (12 starts)...undrafted free agent with 1 career start

I had actually forgotten about this guy. He was completely erased from memory.  Shame on you for reminding me.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2020, 08:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I had actually forgotten about this guy. He was completely erased from memory.  Shame on you for reminding me.

Was decent in the Jumbo Line and was 6'9".

Just had to remind you some more Wes.