QB or the WR which is it ?

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-27-2020, 08:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think one of Dalton's biggest weaknesses (mobility and downfield vision while manipulating the pocket) is one of Burrow's biggest strengths.  Now, will Joe be able to feel as confident behind this offensive line?  I actually believe he will.  He made the LSU line look a lot better than it was, and I think the way he maneuvers around in the pocket will have a big effect on the receiving stats of the WRs, TEs, and RBs. 

Defenders hate to have to cover for any extended period of time, and that ability to buy a little extra time was something we rarely saw from Dalton.  Although, to be fair, in 2018 I thought Van Pelt had a huge impact on Dalton's abilities in relation to pocket awareness, but it didn't seem to last. 

I made the much-maligned "Tyler Boyd- Record Chaser?" thread to try and convey how the 6'1", 202 lb Justin Jefferson had a ridiculous 111 receptions and 18 TDs out of the slot at LSU last season and how the 6'2", 202 lb, Tyler Boyd could have that kind of season with Burrow largely because of how Burrow attacks the middle of the field.  

Burrow will take this offense to new heights.  I can't wait to see it.  

Agree, but 2015 also for the first 9 games or so Dalton was manipulating the pocket fairly well and even throwing on the run a bit. But after the injury he never really got it back for 16 or 17. 

Burrow hasn't played an NFL snap yet so it's just speculation at this point. But I strongly feel a large part of out lack of production from our receivers/backs can be laid at the feet of our QB's.

I can't wait to see it either ! 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-21-2020, 01:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, you're accounting for poor QB play in regards to other positions, but it seems you're not doing the same in regards to QB play.

Meaning...

Look at the OL Andy had to work with those 3 seasons.  Could that not help explain why the numbers weren't as good?  At what point during those 3 season did we not have a well below average OL?  I mean, we're talking bottom of the barrel, among the leagues worst over the time span.

What about the loss of AJ Green?  He missed 23 of 48 games (48%) over those 3 seasons.  Could not having your number #1 receiver have something to do with a drop-off in production?

When you're stuck behind a bad OL and you're missing your biggest threat that's going to affect the QB play.
What about the rushinng game?  How much help were they, in taking pressure off of the pass game?

In 2017 we averaged 3.6 yards a carry, and only had 6 rushing TD's.  That's unbelievablely bad.  In 2019 we only averaged 3.9 yards a carry and only had 9 rushing TD's, which is also pretty damn bad.

What about the defense?  What affect does that have on the passing game?  Well, here's our team ranks in total yards allowed over that span...

2019 - 28th
2018 - 32nd
2017 - 17th

Call me crazy, but I would think a defense that is bad is going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the offense, and as a result the QB.  This leads to a lot of time playing from behind, and being forced to make throws and call plays you may not if you're weren't constantly playing catch-up.

So now we've got a QB in Dalton, whose OL has gone to shit, whose #1 receiving option is often hurt, with a below average run game, and well below average defense... What QB thrives in that envioroment?  Show me a QB that doesn't see a decrease in stats knowing the above.

The fact of the matter is it is a team game.  Every position affects every other position.  You can't just blame one player, or not account for everything that surrounds the situation.

When Andy was surrounded by above average talent he was an above average QB.  When it was below average, he followed suit.  The reality is he did not just magically turn into a terrible QB overnight.  Nor was he suddenly magically among the game's elite in 2015. 

Andy Dalton was a decent and capable starter.  Not great, no. But far from terrible.  As the team became worse and worse his stats became worse and worse.  He has a 9 year career to disect, it's completely unfair to cherry-pick a 3 year window and use it to define his skill level. 

Great post. As Fred said, the true answer is that it goes both ways. A bad QB can drag you down, but a bad team can drag down a QB as well. Or maybe you could say a bad team is just a bad team?  

I think most have agreed that Dalton is somewhere around average as a starter through his career. He's not a top 5 elite guy that's required to drag a bad roster to 10 wins (although even guys like Pig Ben and Brees haven't done that, either). He's also not the reason we went 21-42-1 over the last 4 seasons.

The Bengals allowed the roster to rot around Dalton for 4 years. We had draft busts on the o-line. As you pointed out, Green has missed a ton of time. We did little to nothing in free agency. Our once elite defense fell off a cliff. The run game has been spotty to put it very kindly.

Our highlight addition last year was a tackle who missed the season. What QB (let alone an average one) wins in that situation??

So I suppose if we start winning again in 2020, people will point to the QB. Depending on the season Burrow has, that could be partially correct...but it would be ignoring the off-season we just had. We just spent more money on free agents than we ever did under Dalton. If AJ Green is healthy, the run game improves and the defense makes a jump forward, do we attribute those wins 100% to the QB?

I think some people will, but if we want to try and be fair and reasonable about this, our improvement will likely be due to all of the above. Improved QB play, healthy (and improved) receivers, a huge make-over on defense via free agency, and hopefully improved o-line play. If Dalton were the QB in 2020, I'm positive he'd win way more than 2 games. Burrow - if as advertised - should take us another step beyond that.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-27-2020, 08:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think one of Dalton's biggest weaknesses (mobility and downfield vision while manipulating the pocket) is one of Burrow's biggest strengths.  Now, will Joe be able to feel as confident behind this offensive line?  I actually believe he will.  He made the LSU line look a lot better than it was, and I think the way he maneuvers around in the pocket will have a big effect on the receiving stats of the WRs, TEs, and RBs. 

Defenders hate to have to cover for any extended period of time, and that ability to buy a little extra time was something we rarely saw from Dalton.  Although, to be fair, in 2018 I thought Van Pelt had a huge impact on Dalton's abilities in relation to pocket awareness, but it didn't seem to last. 

I made the much-maligned "Tyler Boyd- Record Chaser?" thread to try and convey how the 6'1", 202 lb Justin Jefferson had a ridiculous 111 receptions and 18 TDs out of the slot at LSU last season and how the 6'2", 202 lb, Tyler Boyd could have that kind of season with Burrow largely because of how Burrow attacks the middle of the field.  

Burrow will take this offense to new heights.  I can't wait to see it.  

Well said.

Said it before I could about the comparison of Jefferson to Boyd. Plus Boyd is a big 6'2" practically 6'3" and a crisp route
runner with great hands. Boyd has had some very good seasons with Dalton throwing to him, I cannot imagine how good 
of a season he can have with Burrow. Boyd is the one Receiver we seem to be able to count on health wise and he is clutch.

Mixon should also have a monster season catching the ball. Burrow loves throwing to the RB as well as the Slot.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-28-2020, 12:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Well said.

Said it before I could about the comparison of Jefferson to Boyd. Plus Boyd is a big 6'2" practically 6'3" and a crisp route
runner with great hands. Boyd has had some very good seasons with Dalton throwing to him, I cannot imagine how good 
of a season he can have with Burrow. Boyd is the one Receiver we seem to be able to count on health wise and he is clutch.

Mixon should also have a monster season catching the ball. Burrow loves throwing to the RB as well as the Slot.

Throwing to our RBs is the single greatest improvement that I think will happen this year on offense.  Stupid to take Mixon off the field on 3rd down and just keep Gio in to pass protect.  Even if Gio was adept at pass protection and Mixon was not, they are better served attacking the defense by spreading them out with more targets.  Burrow is so quick and decisive.  This will be a huge improvement.  Sure hope they actually stick with that idea.

[jfkbengals]

(05-29-2020, 11:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Throwing to our RBs is the single greatest improvement that I think will happen this year on offense.  Stupid to take Mixon off the field on 3rd down and just keep Gio in to pass protect.  Even if Gio was adept at pass protection and Mixon was not, they are better served attacking the defense by spreading them out with more targets.  Burrow is so quick and decisive.  This will be a huge improvement.  Sure hope they actually stick with that idea.

On third down last season, Gio averaged 9.2 yards per catch on 11 catches.  Mixon had 3 catches at a 1 yard average.  So maybe there is more to it than just pass protection.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-29-2020, 11:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Throwing to our RBs is the single greatest improvement that I think will happen this year on offense.  Stupid to take Mixon off the field on 3rd down and just keep Gio in to pass protect.  Even if Gio was adept at pass protection and Mixon was not, they are better served attacking the defense by spreading them out with more targets.  Burrow is so quick and decisive.  This will be a huge improvement.  Sure hope they actually stick with that idea.

Agreed, plus it wouldn't be a bad idea to use Gio on early downs at times to change things up.

Too damn predictable bringing in Gio on 3rd downs all the time.

(05-29-2020, 12:49 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: On third down last season, Gio averaged 9.2 yards per catch on 11 catches.  Mixon had 3 catches at a 1 yard average.  So maybe there is more to it than just pass protection.

This is because of the predictability and the fact that they were used that little speaks volumes.

[*ochocincos*]

The answer is both, as both are needed to make a successful catch.
But a QB is probably more important because the ball starts in the hands of the QB.

[fredtoast]

(05-29-2020, 12:49 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: On third down last season, Gio averaged 9.2 yards per catch on 11 catches.

(05-29-2020, 01:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This is because of the predictability 

So I am confused.  You are saying predictability is a good thing?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-29-2020, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So I am confused.  You are saying predictability is a good thing?

No I am saying it was predictable the way we used our Backs. If we used Mixon more on 3rd downs and Gio more on early 
downs it would be less predictable. Use both more in the passing game and the QB has so many more options which makes
us less predictable. It is very predictable when we ALWAYS use Gio on 3rd downs.