Let's not sleep on Auden Tate in the WR mix

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2020, 02:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: The ball on an out route shouldn't be thrown at the sideline it should be placed 1-2 outside of the stem on the outside shoulder. He shouldn't be "getting to the boundary" to make the catch at all. 

What are you talking about?  Out routes get thrown to the sideline all the time.  And if the WR does not run the proper route the pass will be off target.


This all goes back to people seeing what they want to see on film.  

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 02:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What are you talking about?  Out routes get thrown to the sideline all the time.  And if the WR does not run the proper route the pass will be off target.


This all goes back to people seeing what they want to see on film.  

If your QB is throwing an out route at the sideline they are late and most likely getting intercepted often. Late doesn’t mean can’t be done but late means shouldn’t be doing it.The route should be ran from a plus split giving the WR room to secure the catch before going out of bounds. If it's thrown without the plus split then it's already a realy dangerous low percentage throw. A lot of his came from slot alignments or plus splits.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2020, 02:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: If your QB is throwing an out route at the sideline they are late and most likely getting intercepted often.

Not true at all.  I see receivers make catches on out patterns at the sidelines all the time.  And if the receiver does not run the correct route then the ball will be off target.

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 03:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not true at all.  I see receivers make catches on out patterns at the sidelines all the time.  And if the receiver does not run the correct route then the ball will be off target.

I explained what rounding the route does, moves it behind (inside shoulder) and high. The ball being thrown out of bounds isn’t about the route run, they should deliver at the top of the expected stem 10-12 yards how the route is ran “slow” or not doesn’t change it being thrown out of bounds.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2020, 02:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: The route should be ran from a plus split giving the WR room to secure the catch before going out of bounds. If it's thrown without the plus split then it's already a realy dangerous low percentage throw. A lot of his came from slot alignments or plus splits.

Doesn't a plus split give the receiver even less space from the sideline?

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doesn't a plus split give the receiver even less space from the sideline?

If I have off coverage I am going to take more of a numbers split most likely and show a heavy vertical stem with a hard break. If I am being met with tighter coverage I am going to take a plus split with an inside vertical release and swipe/chuck the DB by me when I set him up inside to create leverage to get back out. Most of this thread has been made with the assumption of tight man coverage (lot of separation talk), so I take the plus split with the inside release mainly because if the DB sets up inside I get a relatively free release outside for a go ball.

In relation to Tate, the plus split with the inside release is also the lead into the slant route so you can stem is similarly and bang it up field and back out, so as guys jump the slant you hit the out rout off the same look.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Good stuff, have to admit I don't know much about some of this. Especially plus splits.

All I know is timing is huge and so is accuracy when talking about giving your WR a chance.

As Au165 notes, our QB's were terribly inaccurate last year throwing to Auden Tate.

So I will give him some pass for this and judge him with Burrow throwing to him.

Could happen a lot with the way AJ and Ross have not been able to stay healthy.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2020, 03:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As Au165 notes, our QB's were terribly inaccurate last year throwing to Auden Tate.

Or else Tate was running imprecise routes.

Au165 lost me when he claimed that receivers never make catches on out routes on the sideline.

[Joelist]

(06-09-2020, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or else Tate was running imprecise routes.

Au165 lost me when he claimed that receivers never make catches on out routes on the sideline.

This is more likely. Contrary to what some think accuracy especially in short/medium was never a legit rap on Andy. 

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Au165 lost me when he claimed that receivers never make catches on out routes on the sideline.

..that was never said.

I said the QB is throwing it late if he is and it should be placed 1-2 yards off the sideline. A WR can catch it on the sideline but if the WR is coming out of his break and the QB is missing him wide to the sideline THE QB MESSED UP.

I am not a Joe Goodberry fan but people seem to like him so I’ll use him here. This is a clip of all Tate’s targets in the Ravens game, look at these throws, Goodberry says there were maybe 3 good throws in the whole clip although I may give him 4 positive graded throws. That is 3/4 good throws in 11 targets!

https://twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1183732430164975616?s=21

People need to realize that for whatever reason Daltons accuracy was bad last year. Even Tyler Boyd had to make a large amount of circus catches all year which kills his best ability and that’s RAC.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-09-2020, 05:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: ..that was never said.

I said the QB is throwing it late if he is and it should be placed 1-2 yards off the sideline. A WR can catch it on the sideline but if the WR is coming out of his break and the QB is missing him wide to the sideline THE QB MESSED UP.

I am not a Joe Goodberry fan but people seem to like him so I’ll use him here. This is a clip of all Tate’s targets in the Ravens game, look at these throws, Goodberry says there were maybe 3 good throws in the whole clip although I may give him 4 positive graded throws. That is 3/4 good throws in 11 targets!

https://twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1183732430164975616?s=21

People need to realize that for whatever reason Daltons accuracy was bad last year. Even Tyler Boyd had to make a large amount of circus catches all year which kills his best ability and that’s RAC.

That happens.....a lot

And yes Dalton's accuracy was in the toilet quite often last season. I'll end by simply saying I can't wait to see what happens moving forward with Burrow.

[*rfaulk34*]

Keep blasting on Tate and looking like dumbasses. 


Freaking football n00bs.

[Yojimbo]

(06-09-2020, 05:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: ..that was never said.

I said the QB is throwing it late if he is and it should be placed 1-2 yards off the sideline. A WR can catch it on the sideline but if the WR is coming out of his break and the QB is missing him wide to the sideline THE QB MESSED UP.

I am not a Joe Goodberry fan but people seem to like him so I’ll use him here. This is a clip of all Tate’s targets in the Ravens game, look at these throws, Goodberry says there were maybe 3 good throws in the whole clip although I may give him 4 positive graded throws. That is 3/4 good throws in 11 targets!

https://twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1183732430164975616?s=21

People need to realize that for whatever reason Daltons accuracy was bad last year. Even Tyler Boyd had to make a large amount of circus catches all year which kills his best ability and that’s RAC.

Wow, that was some terrible accuracy and from a clean pocket. Can you imagine what Tate or any of our WR could do if they were ever hit in stride?

[Nicomo Cosca]

That video has definitely been doctored. It’s a known fact around here that Dalton is a “surgeon” when kept clean...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-09-2020, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or else Tate was running imprecise routes.

Au165 lost me when he claimed that receivers never make catches on out routes on the sideline.

Could be true of the top sentence as well. Just trying to evaluate everything fairly here.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-09-2020, 05:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: ..that was never said.

I said the QB is throwing it late if he is and it should be placed 1-2 yards off the sideline. A WR can catch it on the sideline but if the WR is coming out of his break and the QB is missing him wide to the sideline THE QB MESSED UP.

I am not a Joe Goodberry fan but people seem to like him so I’ll use him here. This is a clip of all Tate’s targets in the Ravens game, look at these throws, Goodberry says there were maybe 3 good throws in the whole clip although I may give him 4 positive graded throws. That is 3/4 good throws in 11 targets!

https://twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1183732430164975616?s=21

People need to realize that for whatever reason Daltons accuracy was bad last year. Even Tyler Boyd had to make a large amount of circus catches all year which kills his best ability and that’s RAC.

Good to see I'm not alone.

I don't follow him, but everyone who's a Bengal fan on Twitter retweets him to death and I find him BEYOND obnoxious and incredibly arrogant (see if you can find his tweet where he, "bragged," {I say bragged in quotes, because it depends on how you interpret it} about how much money he made while doing his podcast and writing for blogs and the like).

Still, he does post a fair amount of decent content, but a lot of it is opinionated BS.

(06-09-2020, 07:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Keep blasting on Tate and looking like dumbasses. 


Freaking football n00bs.

Stick around this time, don't leave

[impactplaya]

(06-09-2020, 09:11 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Wow, that was some terrible accuracy and from a clean pocket. Can you imagine what Tate or any of our WR could do if they were ever hit in stride?

I've been saying that all off season how rarely last year Bengals targets were hit in stride. Kinda hard to get YAC when 
You have adjust your route , contort body and extend 
To get a throw from Dalton that only Shaquille O'Neal can 
Catch.
Tate did show last year the ability to get YAC,it was just 
Very rare he was catching the ball north and south toward the goaposts.
Dalton was a exercise in regression last year 

[Whatever]

(06-09-2020, 02:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: Target quality is not catchable balls. Target quality is properly placed balls not just catchable. The point being they all caught similar amounts of catchable balls but in terms of production Tate's lacked because of the quality of the ball placement to him. Target quality is absolutley tied to the ability to add RAC.

As to your "Football" analysis, none of it is actually true. What about it is "obvious on tape"? The ball on an out route shouldn't be thrown at the sideline it should be placed 1-2 outside of the stem on the outside shoulder. He shouldn't be "getting to the boundary" to make the catch at all. Now if you are talking a comeback like what AJ often ran with Dalton you'd be a little more accurate in where that ball should be placed in relation to the boundary.

This 100% causes routes to be behind and high. The reason is when you round a route off you are usually a yard or two shallow of the expected stem. The QB will start his delivery at the expected top of your stem and work laterally off that stem for the targeted location. When the targeted location is behind your path the receiver tends to find themselves further along their path because they starter working laterally at or before the start of the QB delivery. This same thing happens on slants for WR's as well, but he doesn't have the issue with slants. Bottom line, balls are wide because they are late or simply inaccurate, not because he is "slow out of his break". 

Mike Williams averaged 4.4 YAC/Reception.  Tate averaged 3.5 YAC/Rec, so .9 yards/reception.  That's 36 more yards over the course of his 40 catches.  Again, a minimal difference.

The big difference is Williams had 8 40+ yard receptions, while Tate had 0.  That's at least a 320 yard difference in production.  You keep comping Tate to Williams, but it's like taking a pitcher that throws an 80 mph fastball saying he doesn't need a good curveball because another pitcher with a 95 mph fastball doesn't have one.

Every NFL team comoletes out routes from the hash against the sideline, but even taking that completely out of the equation, if the WR cuts his route off short, the throw will be behind.  If he carries it too far upfield, it will be wide.  What generally happens is the WR runs his 7 steps, doesn't break down properly, rounds his route off and carries it too far upfield.  For what you describe, he would have to break his route off a couple of steps too early and round it off.  If a guy is breaking his route off early and trying to guestimate his round off to wind up in the right spot, you need to get him off the field.

As far as his breaks go, it's on his tape and it's also shown in his measurables.  You're entitled to your opinion.