Andrew Whitworth on Bengals deal

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-04-2020, 08:56 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I am starting to think Whitworth thing is becoming a second Palmer thing.. It is the past but we keep having threads pop up etc... easy to look back at something that did not work out and say oh we were so wrong... not like we cut him... but maybe had he not talked retirement for a couple years as a Bengal we would have offered him a longer contract.. guess we on here forget about that convenient truth... . hell yes we start to draft his replacement.. i love the man as a player but after talking retirement for past 6 years, i would have moved from him if it was my company.

This is beyond silly. Comparing Whit to Carson? GTFOH

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-04-2020, 03:32 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: One thing to consider is that Whit is an anomaly. Most of the time you want to be like BB in NE and move on from players before they lose ‘it’...

Data indicates that due to his age, years in the league at the position that it would be wise to move on sooner than later. However, Whit is a HoF level talent... wrong player to take the logical approach on.

That might be what the data indicates, but play on the field didn't show it. 

Bengals made multiple mistakes. 
First one was drafting 2 OTs that season which led to not keeping Whit. 

Should have just took 1, and we knew Oggy wasn't playing his Rookie year. That's another mistake on the Bengals. 

Then we could have kept Whit, started Oggy at RT and then the following year drafted Oggys replacement lol.. and by all means, Whit would probably still be here amd Jonah break in at RT and be our LT of the Future. 

Oh well.

[BonnieBengal]

(06-04-2020, 08:56 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I am starting to think Whitworth thing is becoming a second Palmer thing.. It is the past but we keep having threads pop up etc... easy to look back at something that did not work out and say oh we were so wrong... not like we cut him... but maybe had he not talked retirement for a couple years as a Bengal we would have offered him a longer contract.. guess we on here forget about that convenient truth... . hell yes we start to draft his replacement.. i love the man as a player but after talking retirement for past 6 years, i would have moved from him if it was my company.

I agree. Why rehash the past at this point?

[Essex Johnson]

(06-04-2020, 10:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is beyond silly. Comparing Whit to Carson? GTFOH

 my point was just like palmer threads it is gets to the point of moving on.. I never compared the 2 people but u know that if you read the post fully

[GreenCornBengal]

(06-05-2020, 12:17 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: That might be what the data indicates, but play on the field didn't show it. 

Bengals made multiple mistakes. 
First one was drafting 2 OTs that season which led to not keeping Whit. 

Should have just took 1, and we knew Oggy wasn't playing his Rookie year. That's another mistake on the Bengals. 

Then we could have kept Whit, started Oggy at RT and then the following year drafted Oggys replacement lol.. and by all means, Whit would probably still be here amd Jonah break in at RT and be our LT of the Future. 

Oh well.

It was certainly a mistake. My point was the front office tried to finally take the logical data driven route and it blew up in their face. Typical Bengals luck lol

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-05-2020, 12:24 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote:  my point was just like palmer threads it is gets to the point of moving on.. I never compared the 2 people but u know that if you read the post fully

You claimed Whit was basically threatening to retire (never happened).

I’m all for moving on, and not dragging up the past, but if we’re going to discuss it let’s not make things up to excuse the team on how terribly it was handled.

[RASCAL]

(06-05-2020, 12:24 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote:  my point was just like palmer threads it is gets to the point of moving on.. I never compared the 2 people but u know that if you read the post fully

he knows everything Essex, (NOT) if you don't think so, just ask him!!! in all reality, he is just the opposite.

[Benton]

(06-04-2020, 02:18 PM)3wt Wrote: Here's the disturbing thing about all this.   Not only were the Bengals the only team that did not make an offer in the same ball park as any other team, but the ones orchestrating this are the future of the front office.

It took the guy we all vilify around here to at least get one more contract out of him.

For years I have hoped that Katie and Troy were the future - better thinkers not stuck in an "old school" paradigm void of critical thinking and a clear perception of the reality.

Other successful teams move on from established players.  They just seem to know when it's time to move on and when their player still has the right stuff.

This was a disturbing incident.

This year has been encouraging.   I hope they know how to build on the foundation of their off season moves.

Good points, but, just to play devil's advocate, there's the flip side. We've seen brown keep players past their prime because of loyalty. I think Katie and co were looking at it through a business lense: he's most likely got a couple good seasons before he starts declining and replacement (they hoped) was already on the roster.of course, it turned out to be the bad decision in hindsight as his shelf life was better and the replacement was garbage.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-05-2020, 02:45 AM)RASCAL Wrote: he knows everything Essex, (NOT) if you don't think so, just ask him!!! in all reality, he is just the opposite.

You still butthurt, Clark? Some of you OSU homers really know how to hold a grudge! LOL

[Thundercloud]

I thought Whit was great in every way, and it killed me when he left.

But they just had Ogbeuhi in the wrong position. Because he could back pedal faster than anyone in the league. He was meant to play corner! Hahahahahahahaha!

[Sled21]

(06-05-2020, 12:33 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You claimed Whit was basically threatening to retire (never happened).

I’m all for moving on, and not dragging up the past, but if we’re going to discuss it let’s not make things up to excuse the team on how terribly it was handled.

It wasn't handled terribly, it just did not work out. Those two are not the same thing. The Bengals offered Whit, an aging lineman, a 1 year deal. He left for a 3 year deal and the Bengals rolled with a younger player. In fact, they drafted 2 just to be sure. Same thing the Pats do over and over again. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Bengalitis]

Whitworth was painful because we weren't able to draft a good replacement for him and is still hurting us, take a look at our center. We drafted one (Price) to take over and flopped, but we can live with it because we found a Center (Hopkins) that can do the job instead, and does it well.

Whithworth was a roll of the dice. And it didn't work out. At least he didn't flame out in Cinci like Andy did.

The way they planned Withworth's exit seemed good on paper.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-04-2020, 08:56 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I am starting to think Whitworth thing is becoming a second Palmer thing.. It is the past but we keep having threads pop up etc... easy to look back at something that did not work out and say oh we were so wrong... not like we cut him... but maybe had he not talked retirement for a couple years as a Bengal we would have offered him a longer contract.. guess we on here forget about that convenient truth... . hell yes we start to draft his replacement.. i love the man as a player but after talking retirement for past 6 years, i would have moved from him if it was my company.

He has blatantly admitted that he will sign a 1 day contract to retire as a Bengal.

When has Carsone said that?

Bloody blasphemy FFS.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-05-2020, 08:27 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It wasn't handled terribly, it just did not work out. Those two are not the same thing. The Bengals offered Whit, an aging lineman, a 1 year deal. He left for a 3 year deal and the Bengals rolled with a younger player. In fact, they drafted 2 just to be sure. Same thing the Pats do over and over again. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

It absolutely was handled terribly. Whit was not a normal player, he was an all time great, all pro level player that should have been retained at all costs. LT is the 2nd most important position on the field, and his departure has been an absolute killer for this team. But I’m glad some of you felt haggling over some of Mike’s money was worth losing him over.

Also, we’re not the Pats. If it was as easy as just copying the way they do things everyone would be winning championships. And let’s see how they do now that they’re moving on from their own aging star player...

[Essex Johnson]

(06-05-2020, 10:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It absolutely was handled terribly. Whit was not a normal player, he was an all time great, all pro level player that should have been retained at all costs. LT is the 2nd most important position on the field, and his departure has been an absolute killer for this team. But I’m glad some of you felt haggling over some of Mike’s money was worth losing him over.

Also, we’re not the Pats. If it was as easy as just copying the way they do things everyone would be winning championships. And let’s see how they do now that they’re moving on from their own aging star player...

Well I guess we know where you stand on keeping another all time great.. AJ for life i guess.. and to add a put I made before.. Whit has mentioned retirement the last couple years with the Bengals.. I am not so sure i would invest that much in a person that seems to be year to year.. but I guess your are good with that.. hmmm

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-05-2020, 10:53 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well I guess we know where you stand on keeping another all time great.. AJ for life i guess.. and to add a put I made before.. Whit has mentioned retirement the last couple years with the Bengals.. I am not so sure i would invest that much in a person that seems to be year to year.. but I guess your are good with that.. hmmm

Source? I don’t remember anything about Whit thinking about retiring.

AJ is a different case all together. Whit was coming of an All Pro season, and was not a huge question mark due to multiple injuries.

But yes, I’d love to see AJ retire a Bengal. I hope he balls out this season and we sign him to the last contract of his career.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-04-2020, 04:23 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The guy is my favourite player EVER and this was a misstep by the team... but each and every one of you bashing the team, is running on hindsight.

No. Stop it, Truck. It wasn't hindsight if nearly everyone saw it coming.

Whitworth was coming off back-to-back Pro Bowls and he was 1 year removed from 1st Team All-Pro (and 2nd Team All-Pro the year before that).

The LT heir was Ogbuehi who was coming off 677 nauseating-to-watch snaps on offense in his 2nd year. 

Everyone (besides apparently the Bengals FO) knew it was a terrible idea to replace an All-Pro still performing at an extremely high level with Ogbuehi. That's not hindsight, that is foresight and common sense.

[Sled21]

(06-05-2020, 10:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It absolutely was handled terribly. Whit was not a normal player, he was an all time great, all pro level player that should have been retained at all costs. LT is the 2nd most important position on the field, and his departure has been an absolute killer for this team. But I’m glad some of you felt haggling over some of Mike’s money was worth losing him over.

Also, we’re not the Pats. If it was as easy as just copying the way they do things everyone would be winning championships. And let’s see how they do now that they’re moving on from their own aging star player...

You're just plain wrong, and your whole argument is based on hindsight. Whit was at an age where linemen start falling off drastically. Unless you think the front office should have some magical crystal ball to see into the future and see that Whit would be an absolute anomaly and not fall off, then the decision to go with younger players was the smart one. Those players did not work out, but that is a different issue.

[Wes Mantooth]

Am I the only one that is wondering why in the hell Katie and Troy Blackburn are making decisions like this?

Yes, I know they both are high up in the organization and hold important titles. But I always just kind of assumed they more worked the numbers and did more financial stuff. It sure sounds like they're making actual football decisions.

It's one thing to work out contract details to retain a player, at the advice of a GM. It's another thing entirely to decide when a player is "done" and to place an exact value and then the amount of years on a new deal. Deciding how many years Whitworth has left in the tank, and offering a contract that is well below market value isn't something that strikes me as Troy Blackburn being qualified to determine.

The more I hear about Troy Blackburn the more I dislike him. That statement he put out about Bobby Hart was an absolute embarrassment. Not only can you easily argue against the logic behind it, it's just a PR disaster. His statement made about Kwon Alexander also seemed completely short-sided and unnecessary. Not to mention those words and thoughts completely contradict the team's approach with AJ Green now.

I'm sorry, but this dude absolutely sucks. He has absolutely no business whatsoever making any football decision related to this team. None. The guy's only background is marrying into a football family. Put him in charge of marketing or promotions. Have work the legal aspects of the Front Office. Have him dot the i's and cross the t's of contracts offered. But DO NOT have him have input how much a player may have in the tank. DO NOT have him decide whether a player is worth keeping or matching market value.

I'm not trying to ignore Katie in this either, as I'm not sure she's at all qualified to be making these decisions either. But at least she grew up around the business and is actually a blood relative to Paul Brown. But Troy Blackburn? GTFOH!!!!

Troy Blackburn can go kick rocks. Go get a real job that you're actually qualified for you f'n loser. We don't need this Ivy League lawyer dork meddling in situations like these.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-04-2020, 04:23 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The guy is my favourite player EVER and this was a misstep by the team... but each and every one of you bashing the team, is running on hindsight.

The fact is that he is the ONLY LT in the league, who has played to his age, in the past... what was it, 10 years? And at that high a level? He's been better than Willie Roaf and (arguably) Jonathan Ogden were at that same age.

As well, regardless of their output until that point, we had our top 2 draft picks from the draft 2 years prior, ready and willing to go (if PA is not the loudmouth baby that he turned out to be, I think he'd've had significantly less-pull than what he did and our two picks would NOT have been seen as the future).

From a business and practicality standpoint AT THE TIME, this was NOT a bad move and the majority of you have to realize it.

In hindsight, the team made a terrible mistake and I don't doubt for a second, that they'd take it back if given the chance.

But a lot of you need to get the **** over it.

The issue with the Whitworth situation is two things:
1) They assumed Whitworth would decline (rapidly) given his age and trend of other OL even though he really hadn't declined to that point.
2) They invested a 1st round and 2nd round pick in OT in 2015, expecting/hoping at least one of Ogbuehi or Fisher would emerge as a quality LT replacement by the time Whitworth departed.

Neither of those things happened. They went off expectations, not actual facts for those players at the time. It really bit them, and was probably one, if not the biggest reason for the decline of the team.